Clan (AI controlled)/Patch M/Deity

[rvarnell]

OK modders - I'd like to give you kudos re: the AI's handling of the Clan. I'm on my third Patch M game (single player) and this is a fun one. Playing increasing difficulty/complete kill and its well into the game (at deity now). Standard fractal map & started with two extra civs. Now there's just the Clan (#1 in power/land area), Luchiup (plus a few angels who no longer have a city), & me (Hippus - question on this later) on a pangea style continent & the Illians (tech leader) on a much smaller one.

The fun part is the Clan & Luchiup/Mercurians (Clan vassals) DOW'ed me and the number of units the Clan has is amazing. They've got all of the lower level units that the AIs spam/use as cannon fodder but the number of well promoted, iron wielding Ogres is outrageous. They had hundreds of these critters in the first SOD they sent my way, with two or three similar stacks that are lurking. Luckily the first stack stopped by the ocean & got decimated by my cultists/mages/archmages then regular troops. The other SODs I see seem to be sticking to the inland hills – not so good for me. I've been spamming units to the point that its really affecting my economy/research & I don't know if I'll be able to hold them off. Plus the Illians are waiting in the wings…

The point to all this is the AI has played the Clan well - very similar to the way a human might have played them (outproduce military units & use them to roll over your neighbors early and often). I haven't seen the Clan use magic, but the Luichiurp have been using lightning & fire balls against me, so it looks like the AI is starting to understand the magic system (but it seems like even their archmages use tier 2 spells, then suicide attack).

So, make sure that the Clan is in your next Patch M single player game! Win or lose it will at least be challenging.

PS – This is my third consecutive random start on Patch M, and I’ve ended up with the Hippus each time. Are the Hippus favored for some reason? (That’s the problem with a random selection, you never really know…)

 

[Emptiness]

PS – This is my third consecutive random start on Patch M, and I’ve ended up with the Hippus each time. Are the Hippus favored for some reason? (That’s the problem with a random selection, you never really know…)

No. I once went several months without ever getting the Luchuirp as my random civ. Clustering and gaps are just a natural part of randomness.

 

[DaveGold]

All random selections sometimes have long streaks, it's part of the randomness.

The clan are certainly working well and using exceptionally large stacks. The luichirp are also strong although they don't build enough golems, surprisingly.

 

[Earthling]

The AI get free promotions at higher difficulties (often up to C4 or C5); orc building gives them double units. Nothing especially "smart" going on here but the Clan can be dangerous

 

[rvarnell]

As I write this Clan cultists, ogres, etc. (all one move units) are suiciding against some crossbowmen I fortified on a Luchiurp hill. I keep hearing that victory horn...

Oops, that doesn't sound good...

ps - The Luchiurp certainly didn't build enough golems. They sure seem to like building slingers though...

 

[rvarnell]

Also, the Clan likes suiciding wolf riders. They must be created with "born to die" on their foreheads because that's all they seem to do...

 

[Brugarin]

I've noticed that the AI tends to build up HUGE stacks in the latest patches. You should see the horror of Ljosafar SoDs... They usually have 2 hundred or so priests of leaves with just as many tigers at their side, plus the swordsmen/rangers/etc... It's a big bother trying to prevent them from steamrolling you after they ate up your friendly Doviello neighbors.

 

[Azhral]

The clan has been in every one of my Massive Marathon games this week, and in all games they were dead last in everything. Power, Score, tech, everything. And the most recent game they had the Dragon Bones in the BFC of their main city. They were doing ok against the Ljos, but then the Elohim joined in and my Golem armies finished them off.

 

[Zobo]

Heh, I had this game where I was attacking Ljosalfar in a tight spot. They sent 50-ish tigers near my attackers each turn.. I was getting nice amounts of experience, plus.. Baron started to create an army for me.

After 20 or so turns I had a bit of a problem with war weariness but 3 greater and 30 bloodied werewolves. The elves had.. longbowmen, sure. Priests of leaves, a lot. Chance? None.

 

[Humakty]

I'm currently playing an Embers game, and oh my the khazads and Ljosalfars are god damn impressive. Ljos have at the very least five time my power graph, and the gap is still growing !
What's the point of the Clan ? Numbers ? Hum, I'll find something else...

 

[Emptiness]

How many units you can support is more a function of your economy than of your unit production capability. The strength of the Clan isn't necessarily in the size of its army, but in how quickly it can replace losses. Also, remember that the comparison should not be made between you and the AI (because AI bonuses make that inherently imbalanced) but between you as the Clan and you as other civs.

 

[Tasunke]

Yea. AI just puts a different spin on things. Normal difficulty levels Mercurians suck, and Diety levels Mercurians are insanely good. Its purely incidental to how they are played, its just a result of the angel spawning mechanic. Same as how the large orcish armies is mainly a result of the incidental massive AI economy/bonus to army upkeep.

That being said ... Warrens are definitely strong. A mid-level player can be quickly demoralized by the Orcish Meat Grinder.

 

[Humakty]

The thread was about civs in AI hands, and I definitely think the clan isn't the worst to face at full strength.

MP value is indeed a whole different matter, even if my traditionnal strategy of contacting everyone with my worldspell, then trade like there was no tomorrow might be difficult to apply against even inexperienced players. Though I bet MP takes place on rather small maps, were it can be easier to regroup my worlspell unis to smash a close neighbour.

Warrens are really good when you start pumping adepts ! fireballs everywhere ! It is less jucy production wise in late game, because of the prod cost of ogres. (though my current game, where I started in flatland jungles, might be for something in this 'feeling')

 

[DaveGold]

The thread was about civs in AI hands, and I definitely think the clan isn't the worst to face at full strength.

One rating of capability of an AI opponent is how well they can eliminate other AI opponents and then continue their military push to 'win' a game. The Clan seem like one of the stronger nations by that rating as they can expand very rapidly in the early game, tech for ogres, and roll their army over opponents all the while. If you don't play on Pangea style maps you might not see this.

 

[Humakty]

Well, I've just played a scenarized map as Clan, and have witnessed, thanks to the good exploration of my worldspell, the Khazads and Ljosalfars steamroll their neighbours long before I could even dream of fielding ogres. Both those civs can have gorgeous production bonus. Looking at Ljos territory, I see only towns in ancient forest, with some mines (in AF too), which explains both their tech lead and stunning production.

 

[a_civilian]

Warrens are really good when you start pumping adepts ! fireballs everywhere ! It is less jucy production wise in late game, because of the prod cost of ogres. (though my current game, where I started in flatland jungles, might be for something in this 'feeling')

You're still getting units significantly stronger than champions for 3/4 the cost. The ogres allow you to take full advantage of your production capability without sinking your economy in maintenance costs.

As for flatland, my solution to that was conquest and sacrifice the weak. Made every city a major production city.

Well, I've just played a scenarized map as Clan, and have witnessed, thanks to the good exploration of my worldspell, the Khazads and Ljosalfars steamroll their neighbours long before I could even dream of fielding ogres. Both those civs can have gorgeous production bonus. Looking at Ljos territory, I see only towns in ancient forest, with some mines (in AF too), which explains both their tech lead and stunning production.

You can just as well roll over your opponents with warrens axemen early on.

Ljosalfar can get an amazing economy but it takes a long time to develop. Khazad can get huge production multipliers but they have to expand slowly. Clan can use warrens combined with barbarian trait to expand extremely quickly, and then immediately use warrens to build an army at double speed.

 

[Humakty]

Interesting facts about ogres & champions :

champion :
180 hammers
melee unit
6 strength
+ 25 % against melee units

ogre :
270 hammers
melee unit
8 strength

Pitching the one against the other :
With mithril weapons, both at level 0, 12.5 strength for the champion, 12 for he ogre.
Iron : champion : 10 ogre : 10
copper : champion : 8.4 ogre : 9
At +50 % hammers, ogres don't seem that hot anymore.

Conquest is interesting, but if you have to produce a lot, your economy is slown down (no growth while you produce), like if you needed some extra economic setback. I set up workshops instead, but they're really worth it much later into the game. Sacrifice the weak is what I used, as it is the only religion you can hope to found, (Ashen Veil not being the most popular religion among AIs).

Ancient forest can start to develop during the early phases of the game, FoL being an early religion. The only real drawback is work time of improvements, but it is more than balanced by the extra hammer on all plots. And the extra food too.

Warrens cost 270 hammers, quite hard to put them up in every city early on.

The exact strategy to apply much depends, of course, of the starting position, a lot of the size of map , and on the settings.

 

[a_civilian]

Interesting facts about ogres & champions :

+25% versus melee stacks additively with promotions and other bonuses, so it's always less than +25% to total strength and in most cases a lot less. On the other hand, the ogre's +2 strength stacks multiplicatively with promotions and other bonuses. So the comparison is significantly more favorable toward the ogre once you factor in these bonuses. (18 versus 16.4 with the most basic promotions: iron, combat 1, shock 1, and enchanted blade on both sides. And that's assuming neither side has a defensive bonus.) And of course, ogres are much better against nonmelee.

Conquest is interesting, but if you have to produce a lot, your economy is slown down (no growth while you produce), like if you needed some extra economic setback.

Conquest only halts growth when you build units. Sacrifice the weak means your developed cities should be happy capped already, and in the developing cities you can simply avoid building units until they cap. The only real economic loss is the loss of agrarianism, but again sacrifice the weak means it hardly matters.

Ancient forest can start to develop during the early phases of the game, FoL being an early religion. The only real drawback is work time of improvements, but it is more than balanced by the extra hammer on all plots. And the extra food too.

Ancient forest only develops on tiles that already had forest. To get ancient forest on all plots (as you describe), you need priesthood, a lot of priests, and a lot of time for the new forests to develop into ancient forests.

Work time is tripled for elven workers on ancient forest relative to human workers with no forest. That is extremely significant to the discussion of the speed at which the economy develops.

Of course once everything is built and the ancient forests grown, the elven economy is very strong. But it takes a long time to reach that stage.

Warrens cost 270 hammers, quite hard to put them up in every city early on.

It's not that hard in any city that's going to produce units. It costs as much as 3 axemen.

 

[Humakty]

Well you seemed to be thinking about an early game conquest strategy. You just don't make your cities grow instantly. Especially without agrarianism. And StW requires very costly techs. And your still looking at -35 % research.

Rushing is definitely not the strongest point of the clan, Warrens are long to produce (3 axemen can be quite long in the average city), you still need much more vital buildings to have at least have some sort of an early economy. I envision them rather as a late game power, relying on barb alliance for the early game. (and world spell rush attacks on small pangaea maps)

 

[a_civilian]

You can't build libraries... what other economic buildings do you need? Monument, training yard, warrens (and you can skip the training yard in some cities). Perhaps a few elder councils or markets if you want to run specialists, but those are cheap.

I wasn't thinking about running conquest early on, and yes, I would be wary of dropping agrarianism without sacrifice the weak. Conquest was a specific response in a particular game in which I had a lot of flat grassland, no plains, and only a moderate number of hills (similarly to the situation you described). It was amazingly effective.

I agree the clan's strength is not in early rushes - early on your army size is much more limited by your commerce than by your production. But you can expand really fast in the early game, and then once you get aristocracy/sanitation all of those cities are suddenly producing plenty of commerce and (if they have hills) plenty of production. At that point you can truly start to overwhelm your enemies with sheer numbers.