Clan of Embers broad strategy

[Roghar]

Following the addition of the Warrens to a previously weak civ, I've spent a few games (monarch, fractal map, mostly multiplayer + AI) to figure out how best to play them, figuring that if used properly they should be a very powerful warring civ.

As barbarians, with no starting tech and a 10% research penalty, the big challenge is getting research moving early. It is very slow to develop techs and if one expands too much too early the economy dies. I have tried rushing for masonry to get the warrens asap but found getting two techs that don't help the economy and pouring resources into an expensive building (for that stage) sets you back too much. I was also holding off on settlers until that point, figuring 2 for 1 value was worth waiting for.

In my latest game I think I've hit the right balance, at least for the difficulty level I am on.

1st stage

First up, rush for education - Agriculture -> Calendar -> Mysticism -> Education

Aim to build a worker to be ready with agriculture, build farms and plantation as appropriate when you get the techs, as soon as you hit education get cottages flying, that's the critical point you have to reach with Clan to get your economy going. Go with City States, Nationhood, Agriculture and Apprenticeship once at this point. Other than that you are building a few goblins and warriors for exploration and the like, once you have hit happy cap build your first settler, and follow up with a second soon after you have education (economy hurts too much without City States and cottages)

2nd stage

Rush to bronze working (maybe RoK)

Crafting -> mining -> bronze working -> RoK

Your economy is moving, time to up production, clear pesky forests and hopefully dig up some copper. Get your training grounds up for the happiness and axemen, probably build a few workers as you should have a lot to do. Build a fourth city if a decent one presents itself. Certainly hunt out a copper source if available. Depends how urgently you need a good army, its worth getting RoK now if you can, for the money, the happiness and for Bambur (once you get arete a bit later). Enchanted blade rocks hard for an early Clan army. Barbarians aren't a problem to you so you can hopefully keep your army quite small at this point - AI is normally passive this early, and who rushes Clan anyway? You want Rantine asap though. Get him strong, sniff out some barbarian cities for him to take over. You should get a cheap expansion phase here using him. I've found using the world spell at this point is useful for scouting out where all the barb cities are. Just don't hold on to all the troops if you aren't getting value from them.

3rd stage

Rush to construction with a stopover at exploration

exploration ->masonry -> construction -> arete

You'll probably need roads at this point to move around and link resources, and it shouldn't take long. After that get masonry and build warrens in all established cities. Start cranking out axemen in numbers and planning who you want to kill. Once at construction get a siege weapon workshop going and build a few catapults. At arete get bambur and enchant all weapons. You're now ready to go, crush nearest enemy and just keep on moving. Double production of aggressive axemen means you should be able to march through your opponents unless they got way ahead of you and militarised. Get festivals soon after, markets plus temples of kilmorph will help a lot as you expand, especially if you take the time to get a great prophet for Tablets of Bambur. Military strategy is worth getting soonish for the city attack boni, other than that nothing is critical, roll over your opponents and get new cities their religion, market and temple as quickly as you can.

 

[onedreamer]

The first stage always depends on the starting location. If you're born next to 2 hills with gold I wouldn't go for Education, same if I'm born next to wine, etc etc.......

 

[retro V]

Couple of things to add to a strategy involving Clan:

-build nothing but Goblins until you hit happy cap. Depending where you settled the capital this could be as many as 8 cheap little scouts you can send straight up north or down south to hunt wolves. Killing wolves upgrades scouts to a four strength, three movement unit. Wolf Riders are excellent units for a long time. Even if you only manage to hold on to one wolf pack, you can use it to steal your neighbours workforce... free workers. And with the innate bonus against archer units you can keep razing neighbours when they're all flying ahead of you in techs on Emporer+ difficulties.

-be careful not to be too aggressive. You want your enemies to do all the researching and making money for you. Try to balance out your hostilities towards several civs, not just one, or they may never recover. Then who're ya gonna point the stick at? Of course, you can just eliminate the civs one by one, but be warned this gives more room for more distant civs to expand, likely becoming too much of a threat to cope with later.

-forget religions. The beakers needed to achieve the religion techs are far too much for your -10% (and no libraries) penalty. It will take long enough to research the necessary worker and economy techs for sustaining a purely military strategy, and that's where the Clan's real strength lies.

-beeline Horseback Riding after the basic worker techs. I wouldn't value Axemen as much as Wolf Riders. You need a training yard to get axes, whereas wolves have no requirements, move three times as fast and have a better bonus against archers than axes have against cities in general. Go for BW later if you really want the Hero, but he is only one unit, and it will be a while before he becomes promoted to combat-five anyway. Wolf Riders can get around hostile territory pillaging villages with relative impunity, moving from forest to village, pillage, then back to forest. The AIs are too smart to attack forest defences... in a dumb kind of way.


The above is all based on 0.23 though, so it may be out of date in places.

 

[Sisonpyh]

-forget religions. The beakers needed to achieve the religion techs are far too much for your -10% (and no libraries) penalty. It will take long enough to research the necessary worker and economy techs for sustaining a purely military strategy, and that's where the Clan's real strength lies.

-.

Thats a pretty boring strategy though. I guess if you want to be gamey AND WIN AS FAST AS POSSIBLE it may have it's merits (but can easily be argued against). Personally, I wouldn't recommend it to anyone when playing FFH2.

 

[retro V]

Thats a pretty boring strategy though.

Whatever...

 

[onedreamer]

-forget religions. The beakers needed to achieve the religion techs are far too much for your -10% (and no libraries) penalty. It will take long enough to research the necessary worker and economy techs for sustaining a purely military strategy, and that's where the Clan's real strength lies.

Strongly disagree. Do not prioritize them, sure, but forget them ? There is no reason to forget about them and a lot of reasons to NOT forget having a state religion. A pure military strategy includes religion as well.

 

[Shatner]

I recently played a fun Clan game where I learned the hard way a lot of the advice being told above. However I too have a few observations to add.

Early, early on you are scouting. Your tech rate is abysmal; even if there is Gold in your capitol's fat cross you can't mine it and the nearby incense seems to mock you with it's untapped commercial potential. So you send your goblins out to see where the good city sites are as well as where your future victims happen to be. As far as techs, I research mining if there is gold or wine around (a vineyard is a farm AND a low-yield cottage all in one; well worth it if it happens to be available) or calendar if there are worthwhile happy/money resources.

Once I hit my happy-cap I build my first settler and park it wherever I can find a good production city. At this time I've used my world spell and been exploring the map with my randomly acquired orcs. If possible, get three or four warriors into a stack and send them at whatever civilization they happen to be near. You are simply going in to pillage and, if convenient, steal workers. This stack should only take targets of opportunity, pillaging as they go to help keep your economy afloat while slowing the other civ's advancement. When Orthus spawns, send a few nearby grunts to follow him; more on this below.

After you have researched the early resource techs that are applicable to your situation (agriculture, calendar, crafting, mining or animal husbandry) it is time to start expanding and for that you'll need Education. While I am building settlers in my capitol, I'm training warriors in my 2nd city. Every group of four gets sent to pillage another civ; diplomacy is for people without four inch spikes jutting out of their skin. I found another two cities, on flood plains if possible, otherwise I go for riverside grasslands with food resources. These cities will, once they are cottaged and I am running conquest, be spamming axmen while propping up my economy.

Now we have ticked off several civs, are running a deficit supporting all our troops and have tiny, costly cities that might not even be connected to the capitol. Doesn't sound like a recipe for success, does it? Well, now it's time to cry Waaaaagh! and send forth the green tide.

First off if you can, have one or two units follow Orthus into battle when he spawns. The big guy probably won't last too long so you want to be there when his ax drops. The ax makes a bigger difference than you might think so really try for it if you can. I always picture the goblins following Orthus as being the Mickey Goldmill to his Rocky, urging him to stay in the fight regardless of the combat odds. But I'm silly like that.

Second, research Bronze Working and do whatever is necessary to connect bronze to your cities. Rantine with combat 5 and march will lead your forces. If he has bronze weapons AND Orthus' Ax he can single handedly sack cities. I didn't find his ability to convert barbarian cities that necessary. The Clan has no trouble putting settlers where they are needed so I leave the barbs well enough alone unless their city had beaten me to a premium location (or has the bronze I need). After you have bronze working research Masonry and start building training yards and warrens in every city.

At this point your warriors are running out of steam and all the nearby, poorly defended cities have been sacked, mainly so you could loot them to afford the army necessary to sack more cities... Even with bronze weapons the well defended cities are holding out. It's time to send your warriors on pillaging or suicide runs (unless they're worth promoting to axmen) because the Age of the Ax has begun. And if it goes right the Age of the Ax will be the last age of the game. You have three research priorities left: Horseback Riding for wolf riders, Warfare for the Conquest civic plus City Raider promotion and continuing further down the metal line for bigger and better melee units. Prioritize as you will.

Put your axmen in stacks of 10 and send them at the enemy. Make sure you have workers building roads under your army's feet because there is nothing slower than an orcish infantry charge (even the dwarves move faster if there are hills around). Soften the city up with the no-promotion units your warrens produce, then send in the nut crackers. A little trick here: if you have Orthus' Ax (or one of the Luchirp Golden Hammers) have your cannon-fodder-no-promotion orc take the equipment and charge. He'll die and drop the equipment but he'll leave the defending unit slightly weaker than he would have unequipped. Then have the next mook pick up the item and charge. And you can repeat as necessary until one of the units actually comes back from battle alive (since equipment can only be passed between surviving units once per turn but picked up any number of times). Also, do not underestimate an axmen with city raider 3; it's frighteningly effective.

I found Wolf Riders to be awesome pillagers and necessary skirmishers since infantry is so slow... and that's it. I had one or two Wolf Riders with shock promotions beat up on the warrior-only cities of the Sheiam but that was about the only area where they were actually effective at sacking anything. However a stack of two can pillage a town to nothing in one turn, netting you enough money to support your war machine for another two to five turns. And that's the whole point: to use your spoils of war to buy you the time to generate more spoils of war until eventually your the only one still standing.

I eventually decided to adopt Military State instead of Apprenticeship since orcs are more of a quantity rather than quality race. Once I had that and conquest running my five cities (I hung on to the Amurite capitol since it had the Form of the Titan in it) were producing around 40 axmen every 10 turns. Once you've reached that point you've won. Even if the Bannor have priests casting fire spells, orcs are flame retardant and highly expendable. Even if the elves pull their one-time Treant trump, you'll overrun them as soon as their wooden guard vanish in five turns. The Elohim can only keep you at bay for so long, then you can show them that war is not about who is right but really about who is left. Remember, the only rule of attrition is to have more than the enemy and the Clan does. To quote Stalin, "Quantity has a quality all its own."

Waaaaaagh!



Concerning religions, I didn't find them necessary. However if you conquer a city with Leaves or, even better, Runes than you might consider keeping it so you can convert and spread the faith. Remember, Jonas builds temples at double production and having a unit with medic 1 will really speed up recovery times for your veteran city-sackers. That and Great Prophets are the perfect specialist for the Clan.

Concerning fun, I found it to be plenty. I normally play a builder-style game in which I sit and tech up, eventually invading my rivals with a core of highly promoted super units that crush their fortifications under booted heel. The Clan promotes a different style of play that encourages early, frequent invasions to harass rival nations and ultimately using many, many expendable troops to affect conquest. At the very least, losing between one and six units when taking the enemy capitol FEELS better than watching a hero unit stomp around Godzilla-style. That and the unstable nature of the Clan's economy makes for a VERY different experience that I found refreshing. Playing as land-vikings and supporting your economy by plunder is awesome or at least a welcomed change of pace.

 

[retro V]

By all means, try and found a religion - you will lose though.

Look at it like this: aside from the capital, all those new cities that are trying to output 5 beakers (e.g.) are actually only 4 beakers. The 3 beaker cities are only actually giving you 2 beakers. So you see, the research penalty is a lot more than -10%. Take into account the time it takes to tech up for an improved economy and you'll realise you got no chance unless you play on Settler difficulty.

The post above this nailed it. Cheap units and friendly barbs just makes conquest victories the most likely outcome.

If that doesn't sound like the game for you, choose Elf.

 

[popejubal]

-forget religions. The beakers needed to achieve the religion techs are far too much for your -10% (and no libraries) penalty. It will take long enough to research the necessary worker and economy techs for sustaining a purely military strategy, and that's where the Clan's real strength lies.

My experience with the Romans in unmodded Civ IV leads me to believe that Clan of Embers is extremely well placed to have the holy city of a major religion (if not the dominant religion) with the appropriate shrine without a major hit to the needed techs for military advancement.

Don't found the religion yourself. Wait for someone else to found the religion you like and then take the holy city. Just remember to keep a Great Priest available to build the shrine and you're good to go!

 

[xienwolf]

If you change your strategy, Clan of Embers can actually achieve the easiest Religious Victories. Warrens + Disciples = Win.

 

[sylvanllewelyn]

A holy shrine could really help with your finances, that and the city states civic and cottages. Get mysticism and save up a great prophet.

Oh, did you really think I would ask you FOUND a religion? No.... I'm telling you CAPTURE a holy city, damnit!

Clan of embers can be dependent on luck. Even a good timing of their worldspell could net you very little soldiers, and even less would make it to your lands if you try to gather then. And you really do need to get lucky with goblins killing wolves. My point is that the Clan should NOT try to pillage everyone and keep everyone behind. What they should do is take advantage of finding everyone early, and take advantage of the "years of peace" bonus for open borders later.

You don't HAVE to found a religion, but you'll want mining for copper, and bronze working for Rantine anyway. If you're getting mining, why not give RoK a shot? Turning neutral would also benefit your diplomacy once the armageddon counter starts going up. And why would you think you'd lose? With all that aggressive scouting you're doing, you'd easily be able to find a spot for your city to plant next to a gold mine, and another city next to grasslands for cottages, and the 4th for worker/settler production or GP farm. The Clans aren't technologically or economically challange at all, to be honest.

 

[onedreamer]

By all means, try and found a religion - you will lose though.

Look at it like this: aside from the capital, all those new cities that are trying to output 5 beakers (e.g.) are actually only 4 beakers. The 3 beaker cities are only actually giving you 2 beakers. So you see, the research penalty is a lot more than -10%. Take into account the time it takes to tech up for an improved economy and you'll realise you got no chance unless you play on Settler difficulty.

The post above this nailed it. Cheap units and friendly barbs just makes conquest victories the most likely outcome.

If that doesn't sound like the game for you, choose Elf.

Heh sorry but nowhere did I speak of FOUNDING a religion, nor did you since you said to forget about teching any religion. You do not have to be the first to research it, you can even trade it, and by no means you should forget about religions, which are very important both for the growth of your cities and for your army.
And I know very well of researching problems from barbarian civs, you can read my comments in the balance thread.

 

[onedreamer]

The post above this nailed it. Cheap units and friendly barbs just makes conquest victories the most likely outcome.

This is just a very narrow strategy that works on the map type you prefer and not in multiplayer. Then don't name it BROAD strategy please.

 

[Humakty]

Playing on monarch difficulty, I easily founded the ashen veil, which greatly enhances the research rate. There aren't a lot of civs that will seek to found it early on. I agree that trying to capture other civs shrines must be a main objective, so as to support the military.
The world spell is usually only usefull to have many contacts, and many tech trade partners. I never keep all of the units : by the time you will have them regroup, they will have sunk your economy (I some time have 30+ units on large maps, spreaded on all the map : not a great benefit, militarily speaking)

 

[sylvanllewelyn]

Tech situation wasn't so bad. The worldspell gives you tons of goody huts.

I also tried the plunder and pillage strategy. I'm surprised that it worked on a huge continents map, pillaging all 11 enemies with a stack of 3 warriors each. I easily slowed everyone down until I found RoK, and then moved on to fireballs. It was over by that point, as everyone still had only warriors by the time I had astronomy. Warriors could not beat fireballs.

On higher difficulties though, it's still better to gather your army and take out two civs, one on your continent, one on the other continent.

 

[Grunthex]

By all means, try and found a religion - you will lose though.

Look at it like this: aside from the capital, all those new cities that are trying to output 5 beakers (e.g.) are actually only 4 beakers. The 3 beaker cities are only actually giving you 2 beakers. So you see, the research penalty is a lot more than -10%. Take into account the time it takes to tech up for an improved economy and you'll realise you got no chance unless you play on Settler difficulty.

Without arguing with the substance of your post, as I can see benefits to either side, your math here is wrong. Since BTS, all beaker/gold/culture costs are kept to at least one decimal place -- so while in the pre-BTS versions, the -10% science really was much more, now it is just that ... -10%.

5 beaker cities produce 4.5
3 beaker cities produce 2.7

 

[Roghar]

In continuation of the game I discussed in my first post, my economy is going great guns! Once through that initial stage discussed in my first post I started waging war, very successfully, thus ending up with not only my own RoK holy city, but a captured FoL holy city. In addition to prioritising market, temples ofkilmorph, and once I reached mathematics (targetted it pretty early on) gambling houses, the spread of those religions meant that I had no problems continuing to grow rapidly while maintaing a science rate of 70-80%.

10% is a bit nasty early on, as is no starting tech, but if you use the Clan's advantages to grow rapidly, your absolute economy doesn't have to be worse than anyone elses. You are saving a lot on troop production, it means you can afford to get more economic buildings up. And I'd argue that as an expansive civ religion is well worth targetting.

 

[onedreamer]

the real penalty is 25% from libraries, which means a whopping total of 35% penalty. If you consider that Elves can cottage everything but mountains, it is a huge gap. In multiplayer it is a killer.

 

[Roghar]

Sure, in percentage terms they suffer a lot, but you have to take into account size of economy. The Clan are much better suited to growing big quickly than the elves. And I've found with the Warrens giving a massive production boost its much easier to get up to speed with new buildings as they become available, whereas often my buildings lag way behind techs in all but my highest producing cities.

 

[Calbrenar]

The real question I have here is with the addition of Warrens to the clan what is the point of playing Doviello