Clan Social Structure

They're not necessarily smarter, but our examples of Orcs aren't very dumb, either, though the leaders are exceptional. I'd say it would be hard for a goblin to win the respect of orcs, but it could be done through superstition or the like.
 
Way I'd guess it, being the top of the goblin heap would be a position that could earn mild respect from orcs. Mild respect meaning, "we leave you alone, and actually listen to what you have to say if we're in a really good mood."
Goblins, as I see it, are slightly dumber than Orcs (who themselves are about on par with humans), as well as much weaker. A goblin who actually ascended to a position of leadership over orcs would have to be really clever (think Petyr Baelish from A Song of Ice and Fire, the Master from Doctor Who, or Lord Vetinari from Discworld).
As Nikis-Knight said, superstition, perhaps using a Wizard of Oz style front (magical or mundane; mundane would be more impressive) would be one way for a goblin to rule Orcs. Probably the best.
Being vicious, fast, tough, and skilled with subtle poisons, to beat the Orcs at their own game, would be another. Getting caught using poison would be bad, but it'd be a way for a goblin to out-fight his Orc brethren.
Another would be to get a large group of Orcs to owe him a life debt after he saved their green hides, perhaps through quick planning, excellent survival skills, and genuinely respectable courage.
 
Hmm... I was thinking of a goblin who managed to unite the others behind himself, gaining enough power as a result that the bigger guys had to listen. :lol: The idea in the Minor Leaders thread is actually for allowing him a second Warrens building, only affecting Goblins. So 4 goblins at a time. :eek: Probably have to give some 'Uninspired' promotion to all non-goblins....

An arcane leader would be interesting as well, now that I think about it...
 
I believe the Clan has a rather strict caste system, with Goblins on the bottom since they are the easiest for everyone to push around. Conflicts between classes/races are quire common, not that clashes within one are rare. Members of the Clan have more of a group mentality than the Doviello, so what would be a one on one combat there here escalates to clashes between large mobs.



Orcs are the descendants of Humans loyal to Bhall, and I think that Goblins are the descendants of Elves although there is a small chance they are instead descended from Dwarves. I think that at least some goblins (like Khmer Otterfig) are smarter than the majority of Orcs, but I'd guess the disparity is less than in Warhammer. The disparity between Orc and Goblin intelligence would be no greater than that between humans and Elves (which is probably quite minor and comes only from elven longevity allowing them to learn more over a lifetime, even though most elves prefer to think that they are naturally far smarter). I suspect that Goblins are not naturally smarter than Orcs, but that Orcish culture discourages intelligence while Goblin culture admires cunning. Goblins are skilled at using poison and cunning tactics that Orcs wouldn't consider honorable. (I think Orcs are a proud people that care a lot about honor in a Klingon-like fashion, while Goblins have no such scruples.) Goblins probably consider themselves to naturally be much smarter than Orcs, but are mistaken in that belief.

Lizardmen are among the abominations creatures created by Patrian mages (possibly Kezef himself) by combining humans with animals, but since humans were the base they are still descendants of Nemed and thus possess souls/divine sparks. I believe that they tend to be as smart as humans, and smarter than the average Orc. They tend to be quiet and mysterious, not nearly as social as Orcs or Goblins. Ogres and Hill Giants might fit into this same category, but I'm thinking they actually have no human ancestry and are thus really just soulless, dumb animals.


Ogres may be much stronger than Orcs, but I believe that they are about as low in the social standing as Goblins because even a below average orc is smart enough to trick them into doing just about anything. They are the dumbest members of the Clan, and their low numbers mean that even if they had the capacity for tactical thought groups of Ogres would be overpowered by groups of the weaker races.




Bhall Orcs are the top caste in the Clan. The Clan of Embers is basically defined as those barbarians who are still loyal to Bhall and her priesthood, so this is the one Clan class missing from the Barbarian State. The Priestesses of Bhall and their relatives are probably weaker than most Orcs but still stronger than Goblins, and much smarter than anyone else too. They are descended from the Age of Magic's Bannor priests and nobles, while most orcs are the descendants of commoners or from humans of other nations. They still speak the noble tongue of Old Orcish, a beautiful, passionate, poetic language that is more closely related to Bannor than Common Orcish, as it was what was spoken in Braduk before Bhall's fall. This tongue is also known to some Shamen, who I suspect come mostly from the makes of this same lineage. This caste is more civilized than most. (Human sacrifice is a civilized activity, right?) I suspect that Rantine is descended from this caste, but was himself not a priest as the priesthood was female-only until Jonas became its High Priest.


Orcish warriors and self appointed Warlords generally seem dumb, but those we know the most about are actually rather cunning. Sheelba probably comes from the line of Bhall Orcs and she was raised by humans, so it could be expected for her to be above average intelligence. Jonas seems quite smart too though, and from what I gather he was but a common warlords before he killed a priestess of Bhall and was made into her priest. I don't believe he was born into the line of Bhall Orcs, but he is of course their high priest and thus the lead Bhall Orc now.
 
...Orcish warriors and self appointed Warlords generally seem dumb, but those we know the most about are actually rather cunning. Sheelba probably comes from the line of Bhall Orcs and she was raised by humans, so it could be expected for her to be above average intelligence. Jonas seems quite smart too though, and from what I gather he was but a common warlords before he killed a priestess of Bhall and was made into her priest. I don't believe he was born into the line of Bhall Orcs, but

Sorta left hanging here ;)
 
I'd assume there would be a bit of inter-clan politics going on in the Clan of Embers as well. Each one would probably function a bit like a political party, or at least it would for your average orc. Lizardmen would be somewhat outside this arrangement, and probably don't care as much about politics in general. Ogres really wouldn't understand anything anyway, so they'd have no say in any political system (be it god-king or republic). Goblins have their own clans, or at least they did at some point, but beyond the Scorpion Clan they'd have been subjugated, absorbed or dispersed by the orcish clans. As such, goblins probably aren't all that organized at all, at the moment (and there is no reason why a particular goblin couldn't unite them in overthrowing their orcish oppressors)

A goblin leader would be really cool, but I've got no idea how that would come about. I don't know if orcs would ever really subject themselves to goblin rule; orcs aren't as bad about it as the Doviello by a long shot, but there's definitely a bit of asskicking equals authority. As such, the ramifications of a goblin being in charge of the Clan of Embers would be huge, something along the lines of the creation of the Roman Republic or the Russian Revolution.

Finally, any goblin gaining power through religion or magic would have to be incredibly good at deception (or the real thing). Bhall's priesthood and the shamans are all (as far as I know) orcs, mostly descended from Bannor's nobility and priesthood (what MC said). A goblin would have to really prove him or herself before anyone would take them seriously as an acolyte or adept, let alone someone worthy of leading the Clan.
 
Lol, what would be fun is an agnostic comunist goblin leader.
With a doctrine of equality for all (but mostly Goblins) and power to the people (but mostly Goblins).
A new nation of freedom, justice, equality, brotherhood and hapynes for all (but mostly just Goblins).

Think of something akin to Animal Farm meets Russian Revolution meets French Revolution.
 
Goblins are the MOST equal!
 
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