Class-specific Ranged Attack in Star Trek mod v2

[me_myrmidon]

I really like the 1-square ranged mode (called "quick attack" if I recall) in the mid-late ship classes (series IV and up) of each vessel in Star Trek mod 1.19. This made the strategy

dynamic quite different than normal Civ4 or Final Frontier.

Then I find in v 2.x that only Exploration ships have Ranged Attack. Major downer...


Please consider returning to the previous configuration for Ranged Attack (bombard):

1. Don't make Ranged Attack a class-specific attribute and return to the more generalized 1.19 Ranged Attack configuration (in so far as I understand it):

a) series IV+ cruisers (light/exploration) and all heavy cruisers get 1 range bombard
b) reduce Exploration ships back to 1-square bombard range...really only needed to reduce fortified pirate ships sitting on wreckage

...or something similar.

_____


For me, the interesting parts of the mod revolve around big wars against technologically superior and numerous computer opponents. Ranged Attack for all mid-late cruisers was a huge

element in the fun (and balance?) back in v1.19.

Ranged Attack cruiser stacks could, *only if properly handled* , whittle down much more powerful stacks. For example, a stack of light IVs (a mere 8 attack strength) can strike and retreat

and leave a stack of Borg light Vs (30 attack) damaged. If able (and lucky) to do this several times, perhaps even stop or turn back an otherwise unstoppable Borg fleet.

The 1-square Ranged Attack mode is a brilliant way to illustrate the Star Trek cruiser concept -- balanced ships that can take on the galaxy if skippered intelligently. The AI performed

reasonably with the Ranged Attack attribute since all of the cruisers had it. In fact, the player had to be careful not to get a stack, or individual ship, destroyed by Ranged Attack.

Players had to end their turn with their ships not only in a good defensive position, but also have enough numbers to survive a Ranged Attack from an AI stack hidden by the fog of war.

Ranged Attack pretty much ended my practice of roaming single, or small groups of cruisers around unless they were Exploration class, or in totally visible territory.



Some observations based on my first v2.19 war against the Borg (captain difficulty)

a) Early game: stacks of ships with 1-ranged normal attack. Simply a numbers game with some asteroids and fortify bonuses thrown in. Everything ok so far.


b) Mid-game: The Borg jumped way ahead in tech and showed up with light VI (18 attack) ships and I have light IV (9 attack) and they quickly took two systems. This is quite reasonable as

the Borg got twice as far ahead of me but since I don't get attack ships (fighters) or missles until later. My light IVs were completely useless...unlike in 1.19.

So I found myself building big stacks of Exploration IVs. Seems a strange fleet mix to have 3/4s of the battle fleet to be Exploration wessels. (sorry had a Chekhov moment


c) AI hampered in attacking player systems: Ranged Attack provides the player with a huge defender counter-attack advantage, due in part really fast movement speeds in the mod. If the

approaching attacker doesn't attack right away and insists on bombarding to reduce defense bonuses before trying to take a system, a defending stack can zip out and conduct several Ranged

Attacks and run back behind the system defense bonus. Taking huge bites out of the attacker's strength and even destroying attacking units without reply. Especially when the AI decides

"let me heal my stack" and just sits there in the player territory or some other distraction.


In version 1.19, the AI could counter this somewhat by having a bigger number of attackers, *all of which could use Ranged Attack*. The risk to a numerically inferior, but equally strong

defenders (who thinks they can sit behind their fortify bonus and win the one-on-one battles) could be crippled by the Ranged Attack of that larger attacking stack.

The 1.19 defender has to make a additional calculation: "can I survive the Ranged Attack of those incoming cruisers? In addition to the normal "can I survive the bombardment/attack".

d) AI hampered in defense: The AI is not building fleet mixes including stacks of Exploration ships (ranged attack). So the human player can build stacks of Exploration ships, with

light/heavy escort, without a counter. Unless the AI fleet mix and strategy is changed radically the players will just build stacks of Exploration ships as the fleet backbone. Kind of

strange...

"Captain Janeway, the fleet needs you to lead your group of light Explorer vessels as the first-strike artillery component of our main battle fleet when we attack the Borg homeworld."

"Uh, Starfleet Command, it appears your transmission is breaking up. Heading out to explore that wreckage as previously ordered"

This is a real killer. Without Exploration units ("artillery") the AI cannot really win in mod 2.19...now, I will note that I didn't play long enough to get to squadrons (Attack

Ships)...so I will stand corrected if the mod 2.0 AI is set to build dozens of squadrons instead, or some other counter.



...and boring: I enjoyed building all kinds of cruisers in 1.19 in whatever mix my empire could produce. Or, if necessary, winning the game with just light cruisers.


Finally to end this long-winded post, that although I'm returning to the 1.19 mod version for now...

...I should say that I *really* dig this mod!

 

[apenpaap]

I like it better now that Exploration vessels only have ranged attack. Otherwise they're pretty useless in the late game.

About the Borg getting ahead of you: the Borg now have a powerful UU replacing every unit. Their Cube VI replaces the Light IV. In their numbering system, the Warp 5 and 7 ships are also counted. Their exploration ships are replaced with spheres, which have +50% strength, +100% speed; their warp 5 and 7 ships and lights are replaced with cubes, which have +100% strength, + 50% speed; their heavys are relaced with tactical cubes, which have +150% strength.

 

[me_myrmidon]

Late into a Trek mod game, when the physical map and political maps are pretty much explored, perhaps one could argue that the Exploration class becomes a secondary part of existing fleets or garrisons or isn't built at all.

Yet I think there are still uses for the "scout" class in the late game without any changes to the game:

a) in 1.19 that Exploration IV+ still has it's Ranged Attack mode...so is still very useful in combat.

b) as part of a fleet it can "soak up" Ranged Attack or Attack ship bombardment which otherwise would kill other important ships, and brings along enhanced sensors.

c) with only 2-3 promotions, you get a cheaper, fast scout with great (normal) vision. Perfect recipe for scouting and killing: colony expansion, reinforcement, construction, exploration singletons, etc.

d) traditional tripwire scout role: ...sitting in an asteroid field on the edge of enemy space, fortified, and extending sensor reach. When needed: Using it's extreme movement rate, moving several squares into enemy territory, then moving back out. This takes some recon burden off Attack Ships who could be attacking, instead of scouting.

It is true that the 1.19 Light class can do all of the above just as well, except perhaps for item c) and d)



Perhaps other ways to make Exploration class unique:

I still stand by my previous arguments about the disadvantage of class-specific Ranged Attack mode and effect on the overall game. But in risking the thread to go a bit off topic, let me take for a moment to the idea of making the Exploration class "interesting" in the late Trek mod game. How about one or more of the following suggested enhancements to consider the Exploration class:

These suggestions are for Exploration V and above and *only* if Light/Heavy cruisers can get their 1-square

Ranged Attack mode back:


a) 50% less maintenance

b) Deep space survey and recovery space (can carry one spy or normal missile)

c) for Bajor Exploration class - can also carry one nuclear missile. Same for other "resistance/rebel" oriented races

d) early access to "commando" promotion - can use enemy warp lanes

e) early access to "heal while moving" promotion - simulate deep space medical facilities

f) make "additional movement" or "additional sensors" promotions for Light/Heavy classes only available after two-star promotions or higher.

g) return 1-square Ranged Attack mode to light/heavy cruisers. But give *three-square* Ranged Attack to Exploration class. Combined with fast movement could perhaps allow an Exploration stack an ability to attack without reply. Perhaps that is too long a range and the existing 2-square range is fine...but I throw it out there for discussion.

h) A small range, small radius "recon" mode. Say, three square range, three square diameter recon (*not* Ranged Attack). The idea is that the ship could be the "eyes of the fleet" and allow Attack Ships and other cruisers act on that recon data.

i) Exploration VI and above: intercept mode against Attack Ships *and* missiles.

...don't give the Exploration "all of the above" but consider some of the above

 

[Imrahiel]

I am not fan of ranged attack in a Star Trek Mod, because in Star Trek ships never attacked eachother from over several lightyears. It would be more realistic to give some factions(Maquis, Romulan,Klingon) missles with a cloaking device and some others missles
with biologie weapons( Dominion) or subspace/big antimatter weapons( egg. Cardassian )

 

[deanej]

I am not fan of ranged attack in a Star Trek Mod, because in Star Trek ships never attacked eachother from over several lightyears. It would be more realistic to give some factions(Maquis, Romulan,Klingon) missles with a cloaking device and some others missles
with biologie weapons( Dominion) or subspace/big antimatter weapons( egg. Cardassian )

That's why I renamed it quick attack. Though the animation doesn't show it, I prefer to think that the vessel using quick attack is engaging in hit-and-run maneuvers.

The reason only Exploration ships have it now is because people were complaining that the units were not different enough (as then it was just strength, movement, and cost). Exploration ships are probably more valuable against the Borg that they are otherwise because of the need to weaken the ships first.

 

[me_myrmidon]

Unless the AI builds Exploration "artillery" ships in some quantity, I think that the human player will have a huge advantage. Especially with high speed, and two range quick attack...basically hit and run without reply unless mis-handled.

I think the generalized quick attack adds more strategy to the game and I still argue it sets the mod apart if all ships have some quick attack ability. Since when can a warp cruiser *not* perform a hit and run?

Well, given that the head modder, and two others have chimed in with dissenting opinions on restoring quick attack, I guess will have to figure out how to do this...

How hard would it be to mod the unit values in v2 to restore quick attack to light/heavy units and reduce exploration to quick attack range=1? I've figured out how to set the system sizes to always be eight planets, so can do minor stuff in the .py files.

Never messed around with unit values though...suggestions?

 

[deanej]

The quick attack is all XML. In Civ4UnitInfos there are two values you need to modify per unit:
-iAirRange: this is the range the unit can use quick attack for
-iAirCombat: this is the unit strength for quick attack; I think I used half base combat, but I'm not sure (that might be just for the starbase with other units using the full combat value)
-iAirCombatLimit: this is the maximum percent of damage a unit can get from the unit using quick attack. Set to 100 for all units

Feel free to release a mod-mod with this if you want. I just feel that making all units have it would make the Exploration ships less unique.

 

[me_myrmidon]

A big huge THANKS for the tip!


I've attached a "mini mod" to restore quick attack to version 2.15 for the Star Trek mod as follows:

a) quick attack for Exploration/Light IV+ and Heavy I/II

b) removed quick attack for Exploration I-III


To install:


1. unzip this file to a temporary folder

2. In this directory:

C:\Program Files\Firaxis Games\Sid Meier's Civilization 4\Beyond the Sword\Mods\Star Trek\Assets\XML\Units

Rename the existing file:

CIV4UnitInfos.xml

to:

CIV4UnitInfos.xml.orig, that is located here:


3. copy the attached file to the above location

4. rename the new file from

v2.15.quick.attack.mod.CIV4UnitInfos.xml

to

CIV4UnitInfos.xml



To remove:


1. In this directory:

C:\Program Files\Firaxis Games\Sid Meier's Civilization 4\Beyond the Sword\Mods\Star Trek\Assets\XML\Units

Delete this file:

CIV4UnitInfos.xml


2. Rename the backup file:

CIV4UnitInfos.xml.orig

to:

CIV4UnitInfos.xml

 

[OllyG]

I've read this old thread with a great deal of interest, as I too noticed that non-barbarian AIs tend not to build Explorer units, and I too think this puts the AI at a disadvantage.

How easy (hard) would it be to modify the mod to encourage the AI to build more Explorer units?

Thanks

Olly.

I really like the 1-square ranged mode (called "quick attack" if I recall) in the mid-late ship classes (series IV and up) of each vessel in Star Trek mod 1.19. This made the strategy

dynamic quite different than normal Civ4 or Final Frontier.

Then I find in v 2.x that only Exploration ships have Ranged Attack. Major downer...


Please consider returning to the previous configuration for Ranged Attack (bombard):

1. Don't make Ranged Attack a class-specific attribute and return to the more generalized 1.19 Ranged Attack configuration (in so far as I understand it):

a) series IV+ cruisers (light/exploration) and all heavy cruisers get 1 range bombard
b) reduce Exploration ships back to 1-square bombard range...really only needed to reduce fortified pirate ships sitting on wreckage

...or something similar.

_____


For me, the interesting parts of the mod revolve around big wars against technologically superior and numerous computer opponents. Ranged Attack for all mid-late cruisers was a huge

element in the fun (and balance?) back in v1.19.

Ranged Attack cruiser stacks could, *only if properly handled* , whittle down much more powerful stacks. For example, a stack of light IVs (a mere 8 attack strength) can strike and retreat

and leave a stack of Borg light Vs (30 attack) damaged. If able (and lucky) to do this several times, perhaps even stop or turn back an otherwise unstoppable Borg fleet.

The 1-square Ranged Attack mode is a brilliant way to illustrate the Star Trek cruiser concept -- balanced ships that can take on the galaxy if skippered intelligently. The AI performed

reasonably with the Ranged Attack attribute since all of the cruisers had it. In fact, the player had to be careful not to get a stack, or individual ship, destroyed by Ranged Attack.

Players had to end their turn with their ships not only in a good defensive position, but also have enough numbers to survive a Ranged Attack from an AI stack hidden by the fog of war.

Ranged Attack pretty much ended my practice of roaming single, or small groups of cruisers around unless they were Exploration class, or in totally visible territory.



Some observations based on my first v2.19 war against the Borg (captain difficulty)

a) Early game: stacks of ships with 1-ranged normal attack. Simply a numbers game with some asteroids and fortify bonuses thrown in. Everything ok so far.


b) Mid-game: The Borg jumped way ahead in tech and showed up with light VI (18 attack) ships and I have light IV (9 attack) and they quickly took two systems. This is quite reasonable as

the Borg got twice as far ahead of me but since I don't get attack ships (fighters) or missles until later. My light IVs were completely useless...unlike in 1.19.

So I found myself building big stacks of Exploration IVs. Seems a strange fleet mix to have 3/4s of the battle fleet to be Exploration wessels. (sorry had a Chekhov moment


c) AI hampered in attacking player systems: Ranged Attack provides the player with a huge defender counter-attack advantage, due in part really fast movement speeds in the mod. If the

approaching attacker doesn't attack right away and insists on bombarding to reduce defense bonuses before trying to take a system, a defending stack can zip out and conduct several Ranged

Attacks and run back behind the system defense bonus. Taking huge bites out of the attacker's strength and even destroying attacking units without reply. Especially when the AI decides

"let me heal my stack" and just sits there in the player territory or some other distraction.


In version 1.19, the AI could counter this somewhat by having a bigger number of attackers, *all of which could use Ranged Attack*. The risk to a numerically inferior, but equally strong

defenders (who thinks they can sit behind their fortify bonus and win the one-on-one battles) could be crippled by the Ranged Attack of that larger attacking stack.

The 1.19 defender has to make a additional calculation: "can I survive the Ranged Attack of those incoming cruisers? In addition to the normal "can I survive the bombardment/attack".

d) AI hampered in defense: The AI is not building fleet mixes including stacks of Exploration ships (ranged attack). So the human player can build stacks of Exploration ships, with

light/heavy escort, without a counter. Unless the AI fleet mix and strategy is changed radically the players will just build stacks of Exploration ships as the fleet backbone. Kind of

strange...

"Captain Janeway, the fleet needs you to lead your group of light Explorer vessels as the first-strike artillery component of our main battle fleet when we attack the Borg homeworld."

"Uh, Starfleet Command, it appears your transmission is breaking up. Heading out to explore that wreckage as previously ordered"

This is a real killer. Without Exploration units ("artillery") the AI cannot really win in mod 2.19...now, I will note that I didn't play long enough to get to squadrons (Attack

Ships)...so I will stand corrected if the mod 2.0 AI is set to build dozens of squadrons instead, or some other counter.



...and boring: I enjoyed building all kinds of cruisers in 1.19 in whatever mix my empire could produce. Or, if necessary, winning the game with just light cruisers.


Finally to end this long-winded post, that although I'm returning to the 1.19 mod version for now...

...I should say that I *really* dig this mod!