Classical Breakthrough Techs

[gavenkoa]

Self-teching Alpha itself sometimes becomes necessary in some (thankfully rarer) games where the entire field refuses to tech it until like T130+ on Immortal

I don't understand why Alpha is so disregarded ))

With Alpha first you open trades, control which AI starts trading earlier, and together with espionage 100% into one rival get info about tech value. If everyone with Math (and you know it) you start something else matching the price.

Convertion of hammers into research also boost your early research progress, failgold and scientists require time and food surplus. I usually in the situation then I have nothing to build (enough warriors / workers / barracks /libs) and not yet at Currency.

 

[sampsa]

@gavenkoa I think it's mainly a difficulty level thing. Since alpha (and monarchy) are the techs AI always trades despite them being monopoly, teching them yourself is not very valuable on deity. Immortal is already a bit different.

I'm not that huge on building . You shouldn't have that many base at that point anyway, unless you build mines, which aren't that great compared to say cottages.

 

[krikav]

Alpha is a very good tech, the only reason it's shunned is exacly what @sampsa says, the AIs tech it fast on deity, and they are always willing to trade it away.
But even on deity, you sometimes get shafted by the AIs who stubbornly refuse to tech it. It's rare though.

 

[gavenkoa]

Since alpha (and monarchy) are the techs AI always trades despite them being monopoly, teching them yourself is not very valuable on deity.

I see. I'm IMM player and can get to the Alphabet at the point when I get from it: IW (to open location of strategic resource) / Masonry (enables full power of wonder failgold) / some Meditation / Polytheism / Monotheism (open Monarchy).

Aesthetic is cheap and requires something in addition (including partial self research) to trade it for something costly like Alpha/Monarchy...

You shouldn't have that many base at that point anyway, unless you build mines, which aren't that great compared to say cottages.

Iron / Copper / Horses / Marble could be in hand too.

I do target 3-4 wonders (Parthenon/Great Library/Mausoleum/Taj) when have access to Marble... And one mine improves Settler build rate (beyond tiles with resource) when it isn't from whip (slow-build on anger or when lib's scientists are on).

But the main reason I eager for Research because I tend to settle loose (by positioning for better future resource coverage and land grabbing) and there is a period before cottages develop to Villages & before Currency when research rate drops significantly because of maintenance costs. Research allows to get through that period to the Currency with Wealth (and some failgold soon). Should try more cottages, I'm reluctant on Worker spamming beyond bare minimum to join trade roots and enabling resources / good spots. More workers would enable me to build more cottages ealier...

 

[Powerfaker]

Sailing also sually doubles your income. I find it bearable to grow with only Sailing to 10 cities, when you have enough trade partners.

Agree that Sailing is worth to mention for economic help. Its effect is easily underestimated. Though double up ...... only if you didn't connect your cities with roads earlier. Of course you can do that when you know you will prioritize Sailing..

 

[sampsa]

If you've connected yourself to a neighbor with a road, sailing usually does nothing. I suppose gavenkoa is talking about maps with intercontinental connection.

 

[gavenkoa]

Early on the first road is cool (1 connection results in +2G). It is better to spend Workers time on Cottages (4T for 1 Cottage for +1G vs 4-8T for the connecting road for +1G).

I don't bother with roads unless they unlock Health/Happiness blocking caps early on on the sea filled maps. That doesn't exclude half build when Workers move around.

I suppose gavenkoa is talking about maps with intercontinental connection.

Right comment but it contradicts with my recent observation. I've got +2G on the Doughnut shaped map where I specifically revealed seafronts. There were no populated islands early on.

I searched for the answer a bit (why +2G instead of +1G) and it seems comes from the distance + peace if description here is correct:

https://civilization.fandom.com/wiki/Trade_route_(Civ4)
base_value = max(1.0, min(pop(To)/10, dist_factor(mapsize)*plotDistance(From, To))

• dist_factor(X) is 16%/14%/12%/10%/8%/6% for duel/tiny/small/normal/large/huge.
• for foreign To city, +3% per turn (up to a max of 150%) since the last war between civs owning To and From

Base value become 2G when distance is more than 20 tiles (10-12% multiplier) and you are in peace for 100%/3% = 34T with 10Pops city or 150%/3% = 50T with 7Pops city (if division is fractional, otherwise it should be dividable by 10).
Probably connection to the capital also helps but again I'm not sure about fraction rounding (it could negate an effect):

• +25% if the city From is connected to its capital

 

[Snowbird]

Early on the first road is cool (1 connection results in +2G). It is better to spend Workers time on Cottages (4T for 1 Cottage for +1G vs 4-8T for the connecting road for +1G).

I don't bother with roads

That is very false. If roading (with some use of rivers) allows not to self tech Sailing, then each road mad might have something like +15 beakers flat attached to it. Well placed roads also allow units (especially settler) move faster, which also gives some bonuses by new cities giving earlier yields.

For me when to road and what to road, still a big puzzlle every game.

 

[gavenkoa]

allows not to self tech Sailing, then each road mad might have something like +15 beakers flat attached to it

Yeah, detour to Sailing is not cheap! For 5 cities it pays back in 100B / (5city * 1B/city) = 20T. Research requires around 10T. Things are better if there are favorable neighbors (on islands / distant / with developed cities).

I remember I was able to get Sailing through the trade (in exchange for Alphabet). But it is around T60-70. Self teching is possible at around T40-50 (earlier you definitely have higher priorities). 2nd-4th cities are around T40-60 - not that far from Sailing from trade. I'll try to join first pair of cities for +2G/T but other pairs are situational and if everything is coastal / river adjusted Sailing solves problem instantly.

 

[sampsa]

My advice would be in general to not tech sailing on pangaea maps. Easy to get via trade and not a crucial tech at all. I don't really understand how it pays back in 20T... If you have a road connection to a neighbor, sailing usually does nothing. Maybe it's a better tech on lower levels though, as AIs are very slow to tech sailing themselves so no resource trades via coast until one of you has it.

 

[gavenkoa]

I don't really understand how it pays back in 20T...

My mistake, I took base cost of the tech without adjustment to difficulty level. On Imm it costs 162B. With 5 coastal cities it repays research funding in 162B / (5cities * 1G/city) = 32T, much worse...

And selling power of Sailing is not great on Imm (probably zero on Deity as they would have it already). So you are right:

Maybe it's a better tech on lower levels though, as AIs are very slow to tech sailing themselves so no resource trades via coast until one of you has it.

Interestingly Currency costs 4 times more but considered superior. I think it is because of the trade power, or for the land only maps because there are no alternatives...

 

[krikav]

Sailing can be seen in abit more favourable light, if one considers it an alternative to early TW.
Allowing you to connect all of your cities, and alowing you to trade resources with the AIs early on, without having to invest any beakers into TW and no workerturns into roading can be very neat given the right circumstances.

 

[sampsa]

My mistake, I took base cost of the tech without adjustment to difficulty level. On Imm it costs 162B. With 5 coastal cities it repays research funding in 162B / (5cities * 1G/city) = 32T, much worse...

Well, I wasn't really arguing that. Usually at least one AI is so close that you should road to him/her immediately when one of you has writing and your cities should be connected to each other usually upon founding already. I am arguing that sailing doesn't give you 5 per turn.

Interestingly Currency costs 4 times more but considered superior. I think it is because of the trade power, or for the land only maps because there are no alternatives...

Well, also currency does so much more. +2 per city is a lot, tech selling, resource selling, wealth building. The only issue with currency is it's location in the tech tree, which is why at least on deity it's generally backfilled via trade.

 

[krikav]

Basically, when you need currency, you can't afford to tech it. When you can afford it, you don't need it.

 

[ArchGhost]

A big boon of Sailing is that it can connect you into the trade network without you even really knowing anything beyond the position of one AI city and a revealed coastal route or road/river combination. That is in addition to beaker tradeoff of delaying wheel and then saving worker turns on roads. I don't really think it's that much of a priority though.

Rare scenario but it can happen that simply acquiring it can suddenly breathe life into the economy through full connection into the world network as you OB with everyone.... though unless you're playing a map with short-range intercontinental routes it has no inherent affect on commerce itself compared to a road though. And a scenario where I would want Sailing before Wheel is likely to favor Fishing and coastal strats already anyway. I value wheel very highly as an early worker tech because I crank production super hard and they often need something useful to do, such as linking cities to help reduce that commerce hit!

 

[SnipedSoul]

Another tiny benefit of sailing is that it can maintain trade routes even if a road gets pillaged. I had to send my workers back into another civ's territory because a barb pillaged the road and the AI refused to repair it.

 

[gavenkoa]

I would want Sailing before Wheel

I try to get Sailing after Writing. Alpha is too costly and Currency is far ahead. With coastal line Sailing does a great job.

I consider postponing Wheel as a violent act. It is a prerequisite for Pottery & so needed granaries / cottages... Probably there are early military strategies that could ignore whip... I don't know...

 

[Orion Pax]

Basically, when you need currency, you can't afford to tech it. When you can afford it, you don't need it.

This needs to be one of the tips that shows up during the load screen.

 

[Orion Pax]

Question:

When do people usually go for Calendar? So often I find I need (want?) their / bonuses and their to help my economy move forward after the early game. Map dependent certainly but (?).

 

[gavenkoa]

When do people usually go for Calendar?

On IMM I trade for it. At this time I'm working on Music/Code of Law. I tend to play Charismatic and usually there are Gold/Silver/Gem/Fur around to help with Happiness.

I haven't considered power of resource trading for money. And Currency is near the Calendar, I wouldn't hurry for Calendar. Happiness is resolved by Monarchy easy. Health usually caps at 8-9 with rivers and basic resources.