Clearing up misconceptions about Islam ( the religion ) , and a request . . . . . .

[la cosa nostra]

Islam is alot like other religions - any action can be justified with the right passage from the quran - and the right interpretation.

 

[JoeM]

Islam is alot like other religions - any action can be justified with the right passage from the quran - and the right interpretation.

You've got this wrong - religion does not look to justify it's actions, people do.

Which is why people are the problem you refer to, not religion. People do bad things and try to justify their actions by any convenient banner be it nationality, religion, or simply having a bad hair day.

 

[la cosa nostra]

You've got this wrong - religion does not look to justify it's actions, people do.

Which is why people are the problem you refer to, not religion. People do bad things and try to justify their actions by any convenient banner be it nationality, religion, or simply having a bad hair day.

So basically religion is a good thing so long as everybody is dead ... thanks for clearing that up.

 

[JoeM]

So basically religion is a good thing so long as everybody is dead ... thanks for clearing that up.

That's a pathetic strawman arguement.

 

[silver 2039]

So basically religion is a good thing so long as everybody is dead ... thanks for clearing that up.

Religon is like Commounisim. Good in principal but rarely applied how it is meant to due to human nature.

 

[la cosa nostra]

That's a pathetic strawman arguement.

How is it? You are implying that for religion to be a good thing, all people would have to be perfect.

 

[JoeM]

How is it? You are implying that for religion to be a good thing, all people would have to be perfect.

You have not addressed my comment.

If you look at my post, where do I imply any of the things you have since posted?

 

[classical_hero]

Basing a religon off its texts rath...just post what someone else had "researched".

 

[silver 2039]

Excellent to see that you can quote scriptures out of context. It just show how much you really understand the Bible. Next time research what you are going to say, than rather just post what someone else had "researched".

I realize they are out of context. I was pointing out that anything can be twisted to suit your purpose or justify your actions be it in the Bible, Koran or Bhgavad Gita.

 

[aneeshm]

Yes, Medina also. However, I don't understand why you say it is wrong. Maybe where you live they think that way. It is part of the tourist industry in Egypt and Turkey. In Kuwait and Qatar they semi-reguarly invited US military personnel to take tours which included entry into a local mosque.

It is wrong because the Shariah says that it is wrong . In fact , according to Muslim law , it is scandalous that infidels are entering Mosques . Here I quote the fatwas which the Indian school of Islamic law produced , about how believers should deal with kafirs ( you can make out the tone of the rest of them ) :

It is haram to wear clothes which obscure the difference between Kafirs and Muslims . True religion is that to wear the dress of the form which the firangis use if kufr . Even to say that what one is wearing is the same dress or item of dress , even when one is not , which is associated with the , Kafifs is kufr . Thus it is said that the woman who says of the rope tied around her waist , "It is zunnar" ( the sacred thread worn by Hindus ) , has become a Kafir . Clothes of an anglicised form are detestable , they are haram , sakth haram , ashad haram ( forbidden , strictly forbidden , absolutely forbidden ) , and anyone doing namaz in them is a sinner deserving of punishment . A Muslim may not even stitch clothes which are associated with another quam - like trousers , the English cap , jacket , etc.

A Muslim should not wear a dhoti , as it shall approximate the dhoti non-Muslims wear . Similarly , where only non-Muslims wear the sari , it is detestable to wear it , but where Muslims already wear the sari , it is acceptable .

The most recent , from Maulana Maududi :

The region between the knees and navel must be covered , irrespective of the quam , and all women , wherever they live , must cover all parts of their body except the face and hands . Secondly , men should leave wearing garment of silk and ornaments of gold and silver . And both men and women should refrain from wearing clothes which suggest pride , lavishness , unnecessary exhibitionism , or insolence - things which drape down andy by which a person suggests superiority with respect to others are condemnable in Islam .

The third principle is that Islam requires the things which polytheism and idolatry have made their symbols be removed from dress - for instance , the cross of the Christians , the saced thread of the Hindus , pictures , or other such things which are customary with non-Muslims .

From the mouth of Mohammed himself :

Make the moustache very small and grow the beards .

Make the moustache very short and leave the beard alone .

Make the moustache very small , and let grow the beard , and do not make your appearance like that of the Jews .

Let the beards grow full and trim the moustache , do the opposite of the Jews and Christians .

Indeed , Saiyid Ali Hamadani urged the following be imposed on Hindus :

They ( the Hindus ) will not build new idol temples .

They will not rebuild any existing temple which has fallen into disrepair .

Muslim travellers will not be prevented from staying in temples .

Muslim travellers will be provided hospatility by zimmis in their own houses for three days .

Zimmis will neither act as spies nor give spies shelter in their homes .

If any relation of a zimmi is inclined towards Islam , he shall not be prevented from doing so .

Zimmis will respect Muslims .

Zimmis will courteously recieve a Muslim wishing to attend their meetings .

Zimmis will not dress like Muslims .

They will not take Muslim names .

They will not ride horses with saddle and bridle .

They will not possess swords , bows , or arrows .

They will not wear signet rings .

They will not openly sell or drink intoxicating liquor .

They will not abandon their traditional dress , which is a sign of their ignorance , in order that they may be distinguished from Muslims . ( This reminds me of the Star of David Hitler forced the Jews to wear . )

They will not openly practice their traditional customs among the Muslims .

They will not build their houses in the neighbourhood of Muslims .

They will not carry or bury their dead near Muslim graveyards .

They will not mourn their dead loudly .

They will not buy Muslim slaves .

This same man used to attend congregational prayers on the site of a Kali Temple he helped to destroy .


In the next few posts , I will give you how Hindus and Hinduism was treated by the Islamic invaders .

 

[aneeshm]

I realize they are out of context. I was pointing out that anything can be twisted to suit your purpose or justify your actions be it in the Bible, Koran or Bhgavad Gita.

I think , silver , that I have provided enough context for my posting of the Islamic scriptures . As for the Gita - have you read it ?

 

[silver 2039]

I think , silver , that I have provided enough context for my posting of the Islamic scriptures . As for the Gita - have you read it ?

Islamic scriptueres from the internet? You posted the opnion and words of someone in your last post. Anything absolutley anything in ANY holy book can be made to encourage and propagate violence. But in the end it remains that people have twisted the words of the religon to suit their purposes. Where in the koran does it say to blow yourself up in a crowded marketplace? Nowhere.

All religons ALL of them give a message of peace but the religons are twisted and harnessed by a few ambitious men. Take the Pope for instance or Saladin and then used to suit the purpose of men.

And yes I have read the Bhvad Gita a few years ago. All I remember is something along the lines of kill your relatives because it is your duty as a Kshitriya is what Krishna says to Arjuna.

 

[aneeshm]

Religon is like Commounisim. Good in principal but rarely applied how it is meant to due to human nature.

Are you talking of the religions based of prophetic monotheism ? If so , then you are accurate in essentials . Those religions became a tool of the state/Church . They said that everyone who did not follow the percepts of their religion was in sin . Because the religion was imposible to follow , they said that everyone was a sinner . Because everyone was a sinner , and thus felt guilty about himself , they could use this guilt for their own ends . They knew that to control someone , they had to first crush his pride and self-esteem . The guilt did that job . The rest was done by a complicated , indecipherable , and exclusive theology and organisation .

This is the tragedy of Islam - the Ulema exercise control , and use the control to further that same control . But the sanction for this is given in the Quran itself , and thus no escape is possible . That is why I don't usually bother with externals - I attack ( or rather , expose ) the core .

 

[aneeshm]

It was a mosque in Egypt. ANd we had the opportunity to sit down with a muslim & have a fairly frank discussion about islam. And it would have been nice if this thread had just stayed where it was.

But you still tolerate it when a thread you consider to be "unpleasant" is resurrected .

This reminds me of the time Mohammed had a poet who was over a hundred years old murdered in his sleep , because the poet had the impudence ( and the foolishness ) to satirise Mohammed in some of his poems . This same Mohammed had a woman murdered in her sleep for criticising him . He wasn't as tolerant as you are .

 

[aneeshm]

Islamic scriptueres from the internet? You posted the opnion and words of someone in your last post. Anything absolutley anything in ANY holy book can be made to encourage and propagate violence. But in the end it remains that people have twisted the words of the religon to suit their purposes. Where in the koran does it say to blow yourself up in a crowded marketplace? Nowhere.

Firstly - the scriptures I have quoted are typed painstakingly by me from the books I have . I am not so cheap as to spend no time or effort on my arguments , or so lazy as not to prepare them . Thay have not been taken from the internet .

Secondly - the attitude a believer is to have towards kafirs is quite clear in my last few posts . But you have closed your eyes to that . But no matter . Read on .

All religons ALL of them give a message of peace but the religons are twisted and harnessed by a few ambitious men. Take the Pope for instance or Saladin and then used to suit the purpose of men.

Saladin was one of the better Muslim rulers , precisely because he did not stick to the Islamic scriptures WRT the infidels . And you still have not answered me when I say that the Quran itself condones the slaughter of infidels , as given by me in my post . I shall re-post it for your benefit . If you fail to answer me about those quotes , that I shall consider you incapable of carrying on an argument without ad-hoimimen attacks . Here they are :

[ The following surahs are taken from the time when Mohammed and Islam were weak , in Mecca . Allah tells his mesenger to wait . ]

Through the darkest night comes the darkest night comes the penetrating light of a glorious star . Such is the power of revelation . . . . . . So waith with gentle paitence - for his decision .
(Surah 86)

[ As time and circumstances change , Allah tells the Prophet that he himself makes the infidels disbelieve , as given above , and as given in the next two quotes ]

Spend not thy soul in sighs for them : Allah knows their doings .
(35.9)

Leave them to their forging .
(6.139)

[ But once the Prophet's power is consolidated , Allah declares the following ]

They demand thee to hasten the chastisement that Allah has decreed .
(22.45-6)

Kill them wherever ye find them and eject them from whatever place they have ejected you .
(2.186)

Fight them and let them find in you a harshness .
(9.125)

Wheresoever they are come upon they are slaughtered all .
(23.60-4)

When you encounter the infidels , strike off their heads will ye have made a great slaughter among them , and of the rest make fast the fetters . . . .
(47.4-5)

Please answer me on this . The context is given very clearly before the quotes - and this is the historical context Capulet has a fetish for .

And yes I have read the Bhvad Gita a few years ago. All I remember is something along the lines of kill your relatives because it is your duty as a Kshitriya is what Krishna says to Arjuna.

Then your memory is faulty , and so is your reading . Arjuna had refused to fight his unrighteous relatives . Krishna saw through Arjuna's excuses , and saw that Arjuna was hesitating in fighting because he was afraid - a plain coward . To expunge this cowardice from Arjuna , Krishna revealed to him the Gita . It is the most inspiring call to action I have read . It is also a solid contradiction of the assertion ( by some ignorant people ) that Hinduism is too other-worldly or fatalistic .

It is precisely because you have not read any of the great religious texts that you hold the opinions you do hold . I would simply urge you to read the texts ( without apologist commentary ) . You can find the Bible and Quran on the excellent Project Gutenberg website . Read them . If I can convince you to do even that , I shall consider myself successful . After that , I shall be satisfied with any conclusions you come to - even if they are diametrically opposed to mine .

 

[aneeshm]

Now for the historical side of my argument :

Note that cows are sacred to Hindus . Also note that Brahmins are the priestly class , and were the representatives of the community .

. . . . . . When Mohammed Ibn Alkasim Ibn Almunabih conquered Multan , he inquired how the town had become so very flourishing and so many treasures had there been accumulated , and them he found out that this idol was the cause , for there came pilgrims from all sides to visit it . Therefore , he thought it best to have the idol where it was , but he hung a piece of cow's flesh on its neck by way of mockery . On the same place a mosque was built . When the Karmatians occupied Multan , Jalam Ibn Shaiban , the usurper , broke the idol into pieces and killed its priests . . . . .

The acclaimed Muslim historian informs us :

From thence the King ( the "Gentle" Fefoze Shah Tughlak , honoured to this day in Delhi ) marched towards the mountains of Nagarkot , where he was overtaken by a storm of hail and snow . The Raja of Nagarkot , after sustaining some loss , submitted , but was restored to his dominions . The name of Nagarkot was , on this occasion , changed to Mahomedabad , in honour of the late king . . . . . . Sone historians note that Freoze , on this occasion , broke the idols of Nagarkot , and mixing the fregments with peices of cow's flesh , filled bags with them , and caused them to be tied round the necks of Brahmins , who were then paraded through the camp . It is said , also , that he sent the image of Nowshaba to Mecca , to be thrown on the road , that it might be trodden under foot by the pilgrims , and that he also remitted the sum of 10,000 tunkas , to be distributred among the devotees and servants of the Temple ( that is , the kaaba ) .

What tolerance !

In the next post , I deal with Aurangzeb .

 

[aneeshm]

We now come to the infamous Aurangzeb .

Note that Mathura is a place holy in Hinduism .

During the month of Ramzan abounding in miracles , the Emperor as the promoter of justice and overthrower of mischief . . . . . and the reviver of the faith of the Prophet , issued orders for the demolition of the temple situated in Mathura . . . . Praised be the august God of the faith of Islam , that in the auspicious reign of this destroyer in infidelity and turbulence , such a wonderful and seemingly impossible task was successfully accomplished . . . . The idols , large and small , set with costly jewels , which had been set up in the temple , were brought to Agra , and buried under the steps of the mosque of the Begam Sahiba , in order to be continually trodden upon . The name of Mathura was changed to Islamabad . . . .

The Emperor , summoning Muhammed Khalil and Khidmat Rai , the darogha of hatchet men . . . . , ordered them to demolish the temple of the camp there and slaughter cows in the temple . . . . It was done .

These men were acting with a conviction that their religion actually supported them . And I say that yes , Islam is a faith that does support such activities . I have just posted the proofs that people demanded of me . Just look at the Quran , hadis , and the later judgements , and at history . I say that it is not a perversion of Islam that is responsible for all this , but Islam itself .

 

[aneeshm]

Now , after having posted such extensive material that the Islamic faith itself has the seeds ( or rather , roots ) of intolerance , bigotedness , and of all the evils of which I have accused it , I believe that I have finally finished my opposition ( i.e. , that whatever they throw at me , I can simple refer them to some older post of mine ) . If anyone has anything new to contribute , please do . If you want to reiterate old points , then please re-read the thread - you will find the answer to your query .

 

[shahreevar]

with all due respect, aneeshm, you have said many interesting things. ok, the muslims in india commited crimes against the hindu people. as the christians did against the pagans, but i am not saying that that is an excuse.
here, i give you that! muslims did bad things in the name of islam!
but what's your point? what do you wish to achieve by all this? do you have any suggestions on how to improve things? personally are you going to stick to the past, or are you gonna move on? do you wish for the muslims and hindus to live side by side peacefully?

the impression i got from your posts was one of passive hatred, anger, and the feeling of injustice. you are entitled to that. but i really like to see something about hope, peace, something less antagonistic.

 

[ainwood]

But you still tolerate it when a thread you consider to be "unpleasant" is resurrected .

No. I had been very close to closing it before. You are continually walking a fine line between debating and simply trolling and bashing islam.

ANd your complete lack of tolerance is hypocritical.