Cleopatra- Black??

[Daoloth]

Looking through some diplomacy screenshots here at this site I noticed a picture of "Pharoah Cleopatra"--and she was black. Cleopatra was not black, or even Egyptian, she was Greek. Her 15th uncle (or something like that) was Ptolemy who upon the death of Alexander the Great claimed Egypt as his. Royal bloodlines being royal and all only married their same ethnicity, and Cleopatra was a descent of Greek incest. She might have been tan from the sun, but surely not black! Egyptians weren't even black says historian Will Durant. However, I do remember hearing the myth that Cleopatra was black, but that's been debunked many times. Did Sid Meier and the gang fall for it?

 

[Matrix]

I too was surprised to see it, Daoloth. This is the first picture I've seen of Cleo being black...

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<IMG SRC="http://www.virtuallandmedia.com/img2/flags-4/europe/NET.GIF" border=0>Civilization Fanatics Center staff member: Game of the Month administrator & moderator.

 

[Becka]

I had that same thought.

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"You know what I pray for? I pray for the power to change what I can, the inability to accept what I can't, and the in incapacity to tell the difference."
-Calvin and Hobbes

[This message has been edited by Becka (edited August 28, 2001).]

 

[Michiel de Ruyter]

On the Civ III site she has the right color : just a tan not black, maybe they changed it.

I too think Cleo wasn't black, but the result of generations of inbreeding in the descendants of a Greek general.

 

[Daoloth]

I did some more scouring at other sites and found the Cleopatra pictures just to be dark tan. My conclusion is that the picture here was just a darker contrast, or it was more of a working shot, before tone and color refinement, or a mix of both. Anyway, is anyone disappointed with some of the civ leaders?
For most of them I'm content, but having Mao for China is like having Hitler for Germany or Stalin for Russia. Mao's cultural revolution killed 50 million people, Hitler's holocaust killed 11 million, and Stalin's purges killed 30 million. It's obvious to see who did the most atrocities. Does anyone have any clue as to whom the leader of Germany is? I'm think Frederick the Great, or maybe for some reason Otto von Bismarck.
Though for PC reasons they'll probably find a female German leader to take that place (like they did with the Egyptians and Brits)..

 

[BlueMonday]

Chock up another victim of political correctness. Tis a sad day when even great computer games are assualted by a waft of PC.

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<FONT COLOR="blue">I take every day one beer at a time; every beer one sip at a time.</FONT c>

 

[Robespierre]

i dunno if cleo's black because firaxis is trying to be pc, and frankly i dont care -

thing that surprises me though is that she's not very good looking (or is that just my opinion?). i heard cleopatra was supposed to be something like a sex goddess.

also, while we're on the topic -

have you seen alexander the great?!
looks more like a poor marriage counselor than someone who made the world tremble...

(i guess since they made cleo "not enough white" they made alex "too white"...)

 

[Knight-Dragon]

I agree that having Mao as representing the leader of the Chinese is pretty lousy. A far better choice would be Dr Sun Yat-Sen, the Father of the Chinese Republic and modern China and venerated by both Nationalists and Communists I think. Or maybe Li Shimin, the second emperor of the Tang, who expanded Chinese power way into the west. Or Han Wudi of the Han for the same above but about 500 years earlier.

 

[Robespierre]

mao didnt do anything good for china - he put an end to the anarchy of civil war only to plunge into the anarchy of mass purges and chaotic "reform".

but on the other hand, i dont necessarily think that all of the leaders in civ have to be great "heroes", either. having a tyrant like mao adds some color to the game. maybe they could even have caligula for the romans. the leaders aren't supposed to represent the cream of the crop, they're just supposed to represent the country they come from - and if there's anything mao, the calm philosopher and faceless tyrant was, it was "chinese" (more "chinese" than some intellectual out of touch with the people, like Sun-Yat-Sen). Not to say Sun-Yat-Sen was a bad guy, he just wasn't a typical chinaman.

 

[Ubik01]

PC or not PC, a black Cleopatra is an absurdity and I really hope this is due to some contrast or whatever tweak, than to blatant idiocy.

Cleopatra was Greek - of course. People in Firaxis are pretty confused about the history of Egypt in this period - they state in "Egypt - civ of the week" that the Greek leaders were asimilated into the local population.

Yeah, asimilated for sure. They didn't even bothered to speak the native language, for Christs sake! Cleo was the first Greek leader of Egypt that took the time to learn Egyptian!!! The others felt content with the Greek language and only!

Open up a history book, fellows at Firaxis, it's all there!

And... people, Cleo was a really ugly *****! Sex goddess? Nah, just a very intelligent woman, with solid leadership abilities and a strong personality. Power junkies would love to mess around with her, but she was ugly like hell

 

[thedirk]

I agree with Ubik, the Egyptians didn't assimilate the Greeks. The Greek worked on assimilating the Egyptians. They didn't completly succeed, but Greek elements certainly became present in Egyptian culture at the time, and for the duration of Roman rule as well.

And no Cleopatra was not black.

 

[dreadhead7]

I am under no illusions that Cleo is Black. I thought she was Macedonian--you know, Greek. I don't know what's going on with Firaxis. I would have thought that they'd do things with a little more accuracy. Oh, well.

edit-minor punctuation.
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"Shake the world beneath your feet up"
--Johnny Clegg

[This message has been edited by dreadhead7 (edited August 27, 2001).]

 

[goodbye_mr_bond]

And as for Alexander, he really reminds me of that congressman under suspicion for having had an affair with that missing intern. What's his name--Coric maybe?

I was watching the news the other night, and it was like--Hey! what's Alex the Great doing on TV? Damn those sexy interns--they're going to be the downfall of civilization!

 

[growthudemocracy]

I have no idea about cleo's ethnicity although i had always assumed her to be an egyptian but apparently i am incorrect. the picture of alexander realy bugs me though. he looks british. i think that Confuecious should be the chinesse leader since they aren't considerd militeristic and he has had such a profound effect on an Anglo-American kid living thousands of years after his death. he said that the unquestioned life is not worth living, well to that end i'm glad to see all of us Questioning civIII. ah the relentless pursuit of well... a lasting culture baby!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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"democracy is the worse form of government, except for all the others" winston chruchill

 

[Chronus]

but having Mao for China is like having Hitler for Germany or Stalin for Russia

Why stop there? Alexander, for example, conquered much of the known world in his day ... as if that was some noble task.

It's funny how we point out Hitler, Stalin and such as evil but then glorify the classical conquerers.

 

[Daoloth]

Actually, another replier was right-- Cleopatra was pretty ugly. The misconception that she was beautiful comes foremost from Shakespeare, and later by cinema. Ancient currency and busts that depict her show her having a dull face and a stubby nose, in other words: fairly unattractive. However, she was pretty much the heir to the dying Egyptian empire, so she was a prime target for political fiascos (a la Caesar).

 

[Robespierre]

Ubik:
i definitely remember seeing a history channel special on cleopatra that said she was "widely considered to be one of the most beautiful women alive at her time" or something like that

the idea that she was really beautiful could have been spread by cleopatra herself, or it could just be misinformation (possibly resulting from hollywood?) but if you read this post then i would ask you to back up your claim that she was ugly with some sort of concrete info (a web page, quote from history text, etc.)

im not saying youre wrong, youve just made me curious and if im wrong then i want to know for sure

 

[Ubik01]

The "beautiful as sin" Cleopatra myth is only that - a myth. We are widely assuming it is due to Hollywood's efforts ("the tragical beauty of Egypt" concept and all that jazz) but truth is that it is a medieval-renaissance myth. Old Will Shakespear played a significant role in it too.

I tried to find some data on the web (Greek archeological magazines were my primal source) and I came up with that interesting link on Discovery:
http://dsc.discovery.com/news/briefs/20010326/cleo.html

The story is quite adequate and they have a gallery to go with it.

Enjoy

 

[Supernaut]

Sorry, but I went to that British Museum exhibition, and the article you quote is a bit of misplaced hyupe (the guide at the exhibition even said 'You will have seen some news stories alleging she was short fat and ugly, but she wasn't'). While she may not have been the most beautiful woman in the world, she doesn't seem too bad, from what you can see in the contemporary images. The other thing to remember is that there are several different images of Cleo - some really Greek looking, others more Egyptian looking (as mentioned, she was the first Ptolemaic ruler to try to get on with her subjects). So we don't realy knwo what she looked like. But she was enough of a stunner to snare Julius and Anthony, so you probably wouldn't push her out of bed for farting.

On a more Civ-related angle, I agree with the comments about so many of these rulers not being exactly squeaky clean (Henry VIII is hardly a role model for England). I suppose they have just gone for recognition value rather than really thinking about the implications.

 

[WUM]

than she must have been black!