Clive1 - Monarch (Training ?) game

[Bede]

There is no such thing as a ****-up, just a different way to look at things.

Apologies if any were offended by the strength of my language.

 

[Sir Clive]

One other thing - Bede touched on the dangers of going after miscellaneous AI units. As a general rule, don't do it. When you do this, you are fighting the way the AI fights - in a piecemeal, uncoordinated fashion. It is the human's ability to direct coordinated, multidimensional campaigns that is the only reason that a human can out-fight an AI that has a production discount.

Trouble is for me is it was quite tempting to do this. I was bombarding the egyptians with the 25 strong artillery stack . I then had something like this

U-U
U-S-U
-U

where S is my stack and U are Egyptian units who have only 1 hp left. S had a mixture of about 9-10 Vet / Elite cav + infantry . I felt I needed to go for them since I had already damaged them I wanted to kill them off before they
got back to their barracks to recover. I also wanted to prevent the westernmost units reaching our cities.

There was no obvious terrain advantage for the Egyptian units so I am a bit bemused as to how my full strength vet Infantry and Cavs got massacred by their redlined units

I'm not ranting about the RGN , just trying to learn why this happened!!

 

[viper275]

Interesting thoughts. What I think that although we are winning this war. We are doing okay. But this is on Monarch. If it was on Emperor or above we might not be doing okay, and these suggestions are also here for future knowledge for those games, but additionally what to do here.

The funny thing is that I rarely talk that advisor that tells you what to build (Cultural, I think.) I zoom to the city and see what it needs. I probably should use more micromanagement, though.

 

[scoutsout]

Trouble is for me is it was quite tempting to do this.

If Bede and I didn't recognize that there is a dangerous temptation, we wouldn't have gotten into "lecture mode".

..I also wanted to prevent the westernmost units reaching our cities.

Here's a trick for dealing with the occasional annoying interloper: Take an artillery piece, and knock ONE hit point off of it. In the next IBT, the AI will retreat it to heal. Though it doesn't appear as effective as killing it, you've taken it out of battle for at least 2 turns.

...so I am a bit bemused as to how my full strength vet Infantry and Cavs got massacred by their redlined units

This is a game mechanics issue: If you're attacking a redlined unit, the fast unit WILL NOT retreat. The two units will fight until one is dead. It's just part of the "combat system" mechanics of the game. This is also part of the legend of the "killer spearman"...



This is also part of the reason you need to focus on the objective. It's one thing to lose Cav, it's another to lose them trying to kill something that wasn't part of your objective.

 

[scoutsout]

The funny thing is that I rarely talk that advisor that tells you what to build (Cultural, I think.) I zoom to the city and see what it needs. I probably should use more micromanagement, though.

I think I just gained an insight here...

@Viper: Next time you go through your build orders, don't consider what the city needs, consider what the empire needs.

...just a friendly suggestion...

 

[Sir Clive]

Agree - I don't know what governs the 'advice' given re the next build. It looks to me as if you are normally advised to build the last thing you built unless a fairly high proportion of your last rebuilds have been a particular item.

Eg if I have just built a spearman in that town , domestic advisor will advise spearman. However if my last 8 rebuild instructions for other towns have all been (for example) Granary, then I will be advised to build Granary.

Doesn't make any difference to me as I always ignore them anyway

 

[Sir Clive]

Here's a trick for dealing with the occasional annoying interloper: Take an artillery piece, and knock ONE hit point off of it. In the next IBT, the AI will retreat it to heal. Though it doesn't appear as effective as killing it, you've taken it out of battle for at least 2 turns.

This is very educational scoutsout. Are you saying that an AI unit will always retreat if it is less than full strength ?

I had not realised that ! I will often leave units which have lost 1 hp (or sometimes more) in the combat zone and only retreat them to heal if they are in danger of being killed. I assumed the AI did the same. I guess I should be watching the AI behaviour more carefully

 

[SesnOfWthr]

Without knowing the exact specifics of the turns, it's hard to say what could have happened there Clive. However, if you are attacking an infantry with def 10 with a cav that has attack 6, these things can happen. Although it is likely that you will get in a lucky shot on a rl infantry, it is certainly not safe to plan on it. You should save those dice rolls for the cities, where the target is far more important.

Unless the stack defender is elite, and even then it's questionable, you should not be attacking these rl units. All that will accomplish for you is to leave your defender out in the open, where the ai lovs to attack. Do this a couple of times per turn, and it's easy to see how units can be lost.

Also, remember this: once you have wounded an enemy unit, unless there is an easy kill within range (worker, rl cav, etc) that unit will be withdrawn to the nearest city to heal. You should ask yourself if it is more important to kill the unit, or to continue the advance. Especially in the age of rails, there is nothing worse than bombing a city down, and then running out of attackers because you have been skirmishing too much, only to see it reinforced the next turn. Now you have to start over, and all your units are hurt, instead of healthy. When you start moving a stack, you want to be able to press on and achieve the goal without having to turn back for healing or reinforcements.

It can be a difficult balance to reach. You do want to take the easy kills, so you don't have to deal with those units later, but you don't want to lose your units. As you move up in levels, kill ratio becomes more and more important. If you were to go read Arathorn's Sid Always War game, you would see he makes repeated references to his kill ratios. Obviously, if the game can make three units for every two you make, you will lose a straight out slugfest.

EDIT: Holy crossposts Batman!

@Clive - the ai will not ALWAYS retreat a wounded unit, but unless there is an easy kill in range, it will. You can not plan on the ai doing the same thing you would do, it's just not realistic. While you know that 3/4 cav can still do some damage, the ai does not generally think that way. Maybe in Civ 4...

 

[scoutsout]

This is very educational scoutsout. Are you saying that an AI unit will always retreat if it is less than full strength ?

If it's in neutral or friendly territory it may just fortify to heal, or it may retreat to a city...but it won't continue to advance. If it's in enemy territory, it will retreat.

 

[Admiral Kutzov]

Apologies gentlemen. I've been dilatory about reading and posting. While outstanding remarks have been made in the prior posts, I've been playing five turns. Any and all criticism is hereby gleefully solicted. I think I've absorbed what's gone before and done well thus far. I'll wait for feedback before I finish. Note I did not read any of the posts after's clive's save before I did this. IIRC, there's some bonus thingy with getting a city above size 12. That's why we've got hospitals popping all over.

Pre-flight: Arabs are not industrialized. ROP + MA done in 11. Babs are all but broke. The witch has Fascism, Espionage to sell, we have Medicine, Corp to sell to her (as if). Changed builds pretty much across the board. We've hit the pop. growth limit in most of cities unless we build hospitals. We're now building few if any military units. Change builds in 50+ cities. Sorry if this is violation of etiquette. Also dial up police stations, courthouses, aqueducts as appropriate. Have ephiphany as I'm doing the MM on the cities - engineers add only to city improvements (engineers don't add anthing if we're building guns) and police only help with corruption. See previous posts, told y'all I'm slow. Wow, look at how fast I can build hospitals! Wake settler in Salient, go found Cape Cod. Wake settler at Sandy Beach, presumably did something useful, but my writing is illegible. Decrease science to 30%, steel in 8.

IBT - Abu takes Heliopolis. Babs get delusions of granduer, declare on Egypt. Upgrade 2 swords + MDI; bank is gone.

1. 1680 Found River Mountain. Make a Cav. Army with Anitta (thanks Sir Clive)

IBT - Abu and Cleo skirmish around Helipolis. Cleo's about as good with her military as Burnside was. Her navy is even worse. It sails to Moscow, waves to us and then sails away (like Guadalcanal, but she didn't unload) No bombardments, no landings, WTH. Complete some stuff. Please advise if you want me to edit & detail: to summarize, I'm still not building guns, rather, CH, AQ, SE, and factories.

2. 1685 increase research to 50% now we've got some cash. Steel in 4

IBT - Mongols lining up for suicide run at Carnage Coast. Arabian Navy bombs Buto then sails off. Complete builds. Still not building any military (reiterate: thanks Clive for the military setup)

3. 1690 3 art. @ River Mountain plinking Egyptian inf. 5 art. at Carnage Coast plinking Keshiks. Our elite inf. attacks something (poor note keeping), no GL Riverbend now building BM (Battlefield Medicine) not what you gutter minds were thinking. Walls done at Copan to give me that warm fuzzy feeling in case of attack.

IBT - Hattusas is back to a settler pump. It is not automatic - monitor every turn. Lots of hospitals finish; still not building military.

4. 1695 drop research to 30%, steel in 2. Ft. Indiantown Gap founded. Plinking at FIG.

IBT - Arabs attack Abydos. Cleo wants to talk. She's insulted if we ask for Fascism. Bye Bye CLeo. Start minimal military building after other builds complete. mostly inf.

5. 1700 Plinking at Carnage Coast. Try to sell Attila Charge of the Light Brigade, it is apparent he can't read without moving his lips. More plinking at FIG. Drop research to 20%, steel in 1. Whip a couple of SE, will try to get Wall Street at RB asap.

Feeling good so far even though I haven't taken any cities. Any advice?

@ Sir Clive - avatar looks good. Maybe make it transparent around the outside? Nice set up. Really helped with getting the SoD up.

 

[Sir Clive]

Unless the stack defender is elite, and even then it's questionable, you should not be attacking these rl units. All that will accomplish for you is to leave your defender out in the open, where the ai lovs to attack. Do this a couple of times per turn, and it's easy to see how units can be lost.

Never realised this - thanks very much SensOfWthr. I've tended to assume that I have (say ) a full strength Knight against 2 redlined spearmen I should attack (given that the AI do not have any huge advantage from terrain) ! I can see now how it is very easy to suffer large amounts of casualties this way at this level.

I 've just started playing a random civ ,
random land mass, Monarch game and have ended up with the Spanish . Am
going to try to take all these points on board and see if I can do better than I did before I started this SG !!

 

[Admiral Kutzov]

And I thought I was slow. Been 30 seconds, and no replies to my post

Anyway, our deal with Abu is over right around the end of my turns. I dailed him up to see how goofy he is and sure enough, he's been

OT - fatherly pride - my 10 yr old is now reading the CIVIII manual because I told him he had to before he could play. he's not ready for SG's yet.

EDIT: he want's to be the Japanese in his 1st game, then I told him CSC changes everything

 

[Sir Clive]

Looks good Admiral !!

Any chance of posting a save so we can have a look ?

Am afraid I don't understand the term 'plinking' . Is this because I am not yet fully familiar with Civ terms or because I am 41 years old and past it ?

Someone explain please ?

I'm now off to read Arathorn's Sid AW game ( as per SesnOfWthr's advice)

(@ admiral , I couldn't possibly put a border around my avatar , it would violate the 100 year old tradition of the all red background on the addicks logo )

 

[SesnOfWthr]

Plinking - The art of bombarding enemy units, so that the units are hurt and are easily attacked, or will withdraw for healing.

Basically what Scout and I already mentioned about using the artys.

@AT - Turns look good. Hospitals are one of those builds that there is differing opinions on. Some like them for the size increase, which leads to greater productivity, while some dislike because then your cities make more pollution due to increased pop.

 

[Bede]

@Adm,

does the alliance with Abu still run? if it does you could always sell him sewerage and ivory if we need a cash boost. or you can always use tech and goodies to cement an alliance later.

 

[Admiral Kutzov]

Fortify all military when the turn begins. Make worker moves first, review completed tasks and reassign the city's citizens to take advantage of the improved fields, then move workers to the new tasks

I'll try this. I usually do my fun with guns first.

Evaluate the domestic, diplomatic and scientific (DDS) information next and make any changes needed.

Awaiting your after action with baited breath.

My personal preference is fortify and let the enemy come within range of the artillery if they are stronger, advance if weaker

I agree - see notes on plinking.

although I know I made numerous ****-ups

that's the way I felt during my last turnset when the Empire of Doom (my inlaws) was expected. I feel I pushed too hard to get my turns in.

Concept is fleet in being - developed by an English I think. Learned it from novels, BTW.

If you're attacking a redlined unit, the fast unit WILL NOT retreat. The two units will fight until one is dead. It's just part of the "combat system" mechanics of the game.

Ephiphany 2. Hear the chorus?

Especially in the age of rails, there is nothing worse than bombing a city down, and then running out of attackers because you have been skirmishing too much, only to see it reinforced the next turn.

That's why I pillage lots. i think my workers can put rails anywhere they need to after I've done the deed.

whoops, meant to post a save, my bad. here it is.

 

[Admiral Kutzov]

Am afraid I don't understand the term 'plinking'

Although Sesn has nailed the concept for CSC, the true definition includes rednecks, tin cans, and ethanol.

does the alliance with Abu still run? if it does you could always sell him sewerage and ivory if we need a cash boost. or you can always use tech and goodies to cement an alliance later.

It will probably run out right before or right after your first turn. Brought it up as a reminder to keep an eye on it. Should I do a deal a couple of turns in advance as insurance? I was thinking of giving him gpt for fascism.

BTW - There's a cav. Army at the chokepoint between former Mayan lands and Egypt. I'v captured 2 workers who are working ferverishly on a fortress there. The knight armies are on their way there to close off Attila. My only concern is that's going to put all the pressure on CI and the surrounding cities. Should I leave the choke open and take potshots with the army?

@ clive - still like the avatar. You understand how we yanks are about tradition. Nice to know geezers like us can keep up.

 

[scoutsout]

Although Sesn has nailed the concept for CSC, the true definition includes rednecks, tin cans, and ethanol.

I can see you've been into that last too much... you left out the .22 caliber rifles and pistols...

 

[Sir Clive]

Re plinking - I have just googled this and understand now!

I guess this is due to me being English. I did work in NY for about 9 months but have never come across the word or is it in world-wide usage and I have just led a very sheltered life ?

 

[Admiral Kutzov]

you left out the .22 caliber rifles and pistols...

We use .45 or 9mm around here. Sometimes the .22's don't have enough stopping power for the agressive tin cans.

I did work in NY for about 9 months

The rest of the US thinks of NY like a zoo - Nice place to visit and look at the strange life forms.

Edit: just googled plinking and having trouble stopping laughing after the first two hits. They've got the idea, but not the spirit.