I don't think that Shaitan and I should be making that decision on our own, because we are not elected (well, I will not be anyway). That is why I would like the judiciary to become involved.
Closing polls: Citizens Discussion
- Thread starter eyrei
- Start date
I don't think that Shaitan and I should be making that decision on our own, because we are not elected (well, I will not be anyway). That is why I would like the judiciary to become involved.
Shaitan
der Besucher
I won't be either. That pesky law is still there. 
disorganizer
Deity
- Joined
- Mar 30, 2002
- Messages
- 4,233
there are no defined standards in our laws. only should clauses. there is no foundation in our laws for anyone to close a poll.
there is no base in the forum rules for a mod to close polls not coresponding a standard (which one?).
the polls we speak of (as you speak of the term-1 example like i do) had exactly no base for closure.
there is no base in the forum rules for a mod to close polls not coresponding a standard (which one?).
the polls we speak of (as you speak of the term-1 example like i do) had exactly no base for closure.
Bill_in_PDX
Grumpy Submariner
Well, I would then like to see some kind of law (gasp!) to cover this, or as my friend donsig would point out, we would be hung out to dry the first time it was used.
How about something like:
1) citizen can propose closing a thread by submitting request to in similar manner to the investigation requirement (i.e. which thread, why, etc...)
2) Valid reasons to close a thread include: cascaded polls (my term for polls that refer to other open polls), improperly formated polls, polls that are ambigously worded or clearly deceptive, etc...
3) Requires a 2/3 majority of Judiciary to recommend closure to a Mod.
4) Final approval for any thread closures must always come from a Moderator. (for obvious reasons anyway, as they will physically do the act).
In a perfect world, we could just have the originator correct the poll, but I can see the point that the solution isn't sufficient if some people have already voted with the bad wording. Better to kill the poll and relaunch it.
All of this would need to be legalezed, but that is my concept.
Mine as well.
disorganizer
Deity
- Joined
- Mar 30, 2002
- Messages
- 4,233
A hearing should be done before the closure, where the poster can defend himself and maybe a forced rewording of the poll could do a better job than closing. In my example is was just a misworded part of a sentence which got misunderstood, though clearly not to be interpreted the way it was.
Btw: Im still against any closure. A statement in the first post stating validity or invalidity should do a better job (mod-post)
Btw: Im still against any closure. A statement in the first post stating validity or invalidity should do a better job (mod-post)
A hearing would take far too long. The invalid poll would have done its damage by then. Plus, it is the poll that is being questioned, not the poster...
Bill_in_PDX
Grumpy Submariner
I can see dis's point, but what is turning my thoughts around is the end result. Let's look at the outcomes:
1) The judiciary doesn't agree the poll is invalid: Nothing happens, the poll continues unmolested.
2) The poll is formatted invalid or misworded, etc... The poll has to be closed, and most likely, a new corrected one started.
I don't think any poll found to be incorrect for whatever reason should stay open. There would already be votes cast, so for a valid poll you would have to reopen. I think that outcome is the lesser of all evils in this situation.
While I am not completely comfortable with the idea of the Judiciary being drug into yet another area of bickering, I don't see how it can be avoided.
Eyrei hit it right on the head. It's the poll in question, not the pollster. As long as we approach it in that manner, and require the judiciary to provide information on what can be done to legalize the poll, then all is well in the long run.
Bill
1) The judiciary doesn't agree the poll is invalid: Nothing happens, the poll continues unmolested.
2) The poll is formatted invalid or misworded, etc... The poll has to be closed, and most likely, a new corrected one started.
I don't think any poll found to be incorrect for whatever reason should stay open. There would already be votes cast, so for a valid poll you would have to reopen. I think that outcome is the lesser of all evils in this situation.
While I am not completely comfortable with the idea of the Judiciary being drug into yet another area of bickering, I don't see how it can be avoided.
Eyrei hit it right on the head. It's the poll in question, not the pollster. As long as we approach it in that manner, and require the judiciary to provide information on what can be done to legalize the poll, then all is well in the long run.
Bill
Octavian X
is not a pipe.
It would be difficult to define 'invalid.' Would declarations of invalidity affect official polls that were done improrery (example- approval poll with not abstain option)? Or would they close unofficial, non informational polls? Otherwise, informational polls are meant to do that, and it would be necesary to do that...
Bill_in_PDX
Grumpy Submariner
Exactly.
That's why Eyrei is hesitant to have mods make the determination in an area strictly game related.
The reasonable alternative, outside of forming some kind of review committee otherwise, is to have the Judiciary do it.
I'd even favor requiring all 3 votes to recommend closure, as it should be an extreme last resort. But there is no way to accurately anticipate all the ways a poll could be used wrong, therefore you have take a "reasonable person" standard approach.
Octavian X
is not a pipe.
'Invalid' polls, then, as I would see it, are polls that are for changes to the Constitution and CoL without prior discussion, lack of an abstain option, or changes not already reviewed by the judiciary. Other invalid polls would be appoint polls for deputy and chat rep. positions without the required yes/no/abstain.
We'ed have to change Section D, Point 3.
We'ed have to change Section D, Point 3.
donsig
Low level intermediary
What is the freakin' point of closing a poll? If the darn thing isn't up to specs then put a proper one up. We STILL do not have a definition of proper specs that we all agree on. Discussion prior to polling is a great idea but sometimes you can't get discussion until you post a dang poll! C'mon guys look around you. We ended the first demo game. We needed to know how to do so - culture or spaceship. There was one little poll to guide the poor, beleagured, over investigated DP. Take even that little bit of a glimpse of the people's will and what's a poor DP to do? Stop the victory chat and start a PI? Our constitution guarantees the right to free speech. There is no useful reason to close a poll.
Cyc
Looking for the door...
Whoa, Donsig. If you remember correctly (apparently not), that was the second poll asking the citizen by which method they would like to win. Culture won in both polls. It won by a greater amount in the first poll. the reason the spaceship option gained votes at the end was because no end date (or duration period) was posted on the poll and it was set to just run. The first poll had an expiration date on it, so it ended after 3 days I believe. Otherwise culture may have gotten a win by a larger margin at that time.
You had a choice to follow or not follow that poll (which probably could have been declared invalid anyway). So, please Donsig, don't try to tell me your trials and tribulations because you know as well as I do, if that Culture Victory hadn't of popped up when it did, we would have won with the spaceship the next turn.
You had a choice to follow or not follow that poll (which probably could have been declared invalid anyway). So, please Donsig, don't try to tell me your trials and tribulations because you know as well as I do, if that Culture Victory hadn't of popped up when it did, we would have won with the spaceship the next turn.
disorganizer
Deity
- Joined
- Mar 30, 2002
- Messages
- 4,233
i see donsigs point and agree.
i agree to having the mods post the invalidity of a poll in the first post of it or posting there when a poll gets under judical review.
i agree on polls to be closed when invalid and a new one is posted
i agree on polls being closed when against forum rules
i do NOT agree on having polls closed just because of formal error. maybe a small miswording or something.
and again: we do NOT have any rules on polls. if all the should-phrases there are brought to action, none of the polls of the last (well almost none) game were valid, as almost none had the poll-type in their title (for example)
sometimes, a info-poll is better than a discussion. a info-poll which people havily deny can bring much more people to a discussion thread later than one of the often hidden and unnoticed discussion threads before polls.
and we didnt need it before, why should we need it now?
if we agree on closing polls, anyhow the poll-poster should be heard because it could be a matter of misinterpretation (see turn-1 example).
and if we agree on closing polls, the standards have to apply on ALL polls, even if we have to delete chat-sessions or delay elections or anything even bigger happens due to the closing of a poll (you must also think about another consequence: a invalid poll, which must be treated as informational according to our constitution now, can be better than nothing)
i agree to having the mods post the invalidity of a poll in the first post of it or posting there when a poll gets under judical review.
i agree on polls to be closed when invalid and a new one is posted
i agree on polls being closed when against forum rules
i do NOT agree on having polls closed just because of formal error. maybe a small miswording or something.
and again: we do NOT have any rules on polls. if all the should-phrases there are brought to action, none of the polls of the last (well almost none) game were valid, as almost none had the poll-type in their title (for example)
sometimes, a info-poll is better than a discussion. a info-poll which people havily deny can bring much more people to a discussion thread later than one of the often hidden and unnoticed discussion threads before polls.
and we didnt need it before, why should we need it now?
if we agree on closing polls, anyhow the poll-poster should be heard because it could be a matter of misinterpretation (see turn-1 example).
and if we agree on closing polls, the standards have to apply on ALL polls, even if we have to delete chat-sessions or delay elections or anything even bigger happens due to the closing of a poll (you must also think about another consequence: a invalid poll, which must be treated as informational according to our constitution now, can be better than nothing)
Cyc
Looking for the door...
Mmmmmmmm. Maybe we should have something like polling standards...
disorganizer
Deity
- Joined
- Mar 30, 2002
- Messages
- 4,233
@cyc: but maybe people would be afraid of posting polls then. if we scare them away from the informational polls, we might miss opportunities.
Cyc
Looking for the door...
Quoting Dis:
and again: we do NOT have any rules on polls. if all the should-phrases there are brought to action, none of the polls of the last (well almost none) game were valid, as almost none had the poll-type in their title (for example)
Bill is right, Dis. You need to stop coming down with your feet on both sides of the fence.
and again: we do NOT have any rules on polls. if all the should-phrases there are brought to action, none of the polls of the last (well almost none) game were valid, as almost none had the poll-type in their title (for example)
Bill is right, Dis. You need to stop coming down with your feet on both sides of the fence.
Bill_in_PDX
Grumpy Submariner
Well that's what I am saying. Close the poll and put a new one up.
I am just as opposed to closing threads as anyone here, but if a poll were blatantly wrong, then there is no choice but to close it as the original votes received are not valid. Simply reopen a new poll correctly and all is good.
Octavian X
is not a pipe.
I agree with Bill. If a poll is posted, meant to be official, but can't be because it doesn't meet the requirements, it should be closed. I'd have to be against having a mod change the poll, especially if someone's already vote. Adding the correct option after the fact would deny citizens their right to according to his own will.
disorganizer
Deity
- Joined
- Mar 30, 2002
- Messages
- 4,233
Hmmm. The reason for this discussion was not a poll meant to be or posted to claim to be binding.
It was a informational poll which was misunderstood by some. And the change of a single word would have validated the poll, btw.
What i mean is: If a poll is only formally wrong and nothing else is against the poll (which is the example), why close it immediately? Maybe other measures are more apropriate. Like stating in informational, changing the part of it which was formally wrong etc.
Anyways the poll poster should be heard or at least informed of the closure.
It was a informational poll which was misunderstood by some. And the change of a single word would have validated the poll, btw.
What i mean is: If a poll is only formally wrong and nothing else is against the poll (which is the example), why close it immediately? Maybe other measures are more apropriate. Like stating in informational, changing the part of it which was formally wrong etc.
Anyways the poll poster should be heard or at least informed of the closure.
Similar threads
- Locked
- Poll
