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Coastal Tiles

Discussion in 'General Balance' started by Stalker0, Jul 28, 2019.

  1. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    If we use the current nuclear power plant as an example. Its a +50% bonus to production. That is an amazing amount of hammers, and worthy of late game building. Or the spaceship factory, provides a +25% bonus to science, in addition to its production bonuses. Again, a really solid bonus.

    So if we don't go with instant bonuses, than number like above are what you need to make the buildings attractive. And in those numbers would be "too much", than we don't need more buildings. So that's my benchmark for late game buildings.
     
  2. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    Ok, let me throw out an alternate concept. We are trying to add more bonuses at a time when the late game already goes lightning fast. What if we went the opposite, and these buildings slowed other people down?

    Its a tough sell, the concept of penalties you can't fight can really rub people the wrong way, but it would take the game in a better direction imo. Right now the late game is already quite fast, I would prefer to see it slowed down a bit instead of sped up further.
     
  3. Deljade

    Deljade Warlord

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    The nuclear plant requires the all important uranium. While you may easily be able to fill all your core cities with nuclear plants in a peaceful, tall game, this is definitely not always the case. The spaceship factories I find a bad comparison. They come many turns later and 25% science isn't more than the yields of a good plant. You'd just build the factories to win in science faster.
    You may in fact be arguing that the nuclear plant is too strong here, but the rarity of uranium and the extra variety in yields from the other plants make them comparable, in my opinion.
     
  4. Bhawb

    Bhawb Prince

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    I don't see the point in making this more complicated than it has to be. We already have a set of buildings that do a fine job as late-game tile enhancers that we have all been happily playing with for years; we don't need to rethink something that is already working.

    The only current issue is that if we're going to have a set of buildings that are made to boost specific tiles, there should be options for all tiles, and one neutral, instead of the current system where cities with certain tiles don't get to make a decision.
     
  5. Rekk

    Rekk Emperor

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    All I wanted and failed to communicate is that 5 of the 11 quotes you linked are repetitions of the others. You linked to 6 unique posts; the other 5 just made your post longer.
     
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2019
  6. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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    There's 10 people here with 20 opinions. This is a pointless back and forth and I'm the sucker who drafted concrete proposals with numbers and art assets. To hell with me for trying to retain the flavor and design of the original buildings, merely extending that design to cover all tile types.

    Do whatever ya'll want.
     
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2019
  7. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    As the reigning king of 'drafted proposals with 100s of opinions all shooting me down', don't take it too hard. :)

    G
     
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2019
    Bromar1, vyyt and Kim Dong Un like this.
  8. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    Yep, I'm pretty sure anyone whose worked on this project for a while has a long list of ideas that have gotten shot down. It just goes with the territory, but every so often you get that great idea that people like, and then it becomes real in the mod.

    So this proposal came back up in response to the notion of Coastal tiles. I think in general that either Coastal Tiles are fine (people seem to be ok with them being weaker tiles that fall away, and that's a fair belief), or if they aren't fine, these buildings would hit too late to change the math. In effect, I am not building a coastal city so I can have a tidal plant, and meanwhile the coastal city isn't strong enough to warrant settling in most cases.

    So I don't think the power plant idea addresses that either way. So then the question comes back to, what is the problem the power plant change intends to solve?

    Personally for me Hydro and Wind plants are meh buildings at their stage in the game. I build them in some cities, but often only a few. Nuclear plants and space factories are probably the last late game buildings that I find enticing, one is just an awesome production bonus, and the other one helps me win science victories. So what is still needed at this stage of the game that power plants could help with?....and honestly its ok to say nothing at all.

    I do like the bonus to processes concept for those plants, I think that's a neat idea and does give them some general bonuses in the late game, as often I am switching cities over to processes at this point.
     
  9. vyyt

    vyyt Deity

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    QOL poproposal: Would it be possible to make the other mutually exclusive power plants unbuildable (ideally greyed out in the building list) once you build one? It is quite annoying always having to check if I already have a plant (or destroying the old one by accidentally building a new one), especially in wide empires. If you changed your mind and really want to build a different type of a plant, you can sell the old one.
     
    tu_79 likes this.
  10. Deljade

    Deljade Warlord

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    Bit random and unrelated to the rest of the discussion but how come there is no ideological tenant for the plants considering they arrive so late? Like, for example, an autocracy or freedom tenant that makes solar, wind and hydro plant built 50% faster and extra +5:tourism:. The lakes by hydroelectric dams, wind parks etc can attract visitors sometimes. Autocracy is also most likely to have the spare aluminum. Alternatively some other yields or happiness.
     
    Bromar1 likes this.
  11. Bromar1

    Bromar1 King

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    I had a similar idea a few months ago:
     
  12. Noob Fanboy

    Noob Fanboy Warlord

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    Some things to consider about the discussion between the different energy plants.

    The problem right now is: "The set of buildings try to represent the different power plants in real life but lack a coherent theme and coherent bonus for that stage of the game".

    One can try to give the set of buildings a passive bonus, or a active bonus. A passive bonus is one where you give a certain ammount of flat yields (golden age points, culture, etc), or a certain % to a specific yield (culture, science, production, gold, etc). Active bonus are bonus like GPP, or military unit cap, a bonus which requires active intervention of the player in order to draw the maximum potential of the bonus. The problem with the active bonus, is that they're easier for the players since the machine isn't that good in long-term planning.

    Another point: The late game is very fast right now, giving most yields to those late game buildings can be unfun for someone trying to play some time in the late game.

    What if we try to give a active bonus that doesn't affect the pace of the game in the late game, and at the same time help the players towards winning certain specific victories. I can only thing of bonus to strategic resources, military cap, military unit production, diplomats (only diplomats, not great writers.. engineers... artist, etc). Or even a specific bonus when you have the building in all your no-puppet cities (like, -10% science to everyone for 20 turns if you complete the building in all cities)
     
    Bromar1 likes this.
  13. tu_79

    tu_79 Deity

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    Well. This theme of coastal tiles should be closed, and another one be opened about these power plants if you still want to talk about them, just so you gain proper attention.
     
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  14. Chandler

    Chandler Warlord

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    Ok, so... I know it might be too late for this but... Have you considered assimilating the feature "Reef" from Civ VI? I mean, they could be kinda like atolls. Less yields, but more tiles of them. There's usually very few atoll tiles in the map, sometimes they feel almost like Natural Wonders. You could even be creative about them, and let the University give +1 :c5science: to them, similar to Jungle tiles. Just an example.

    I know we aren't in that stage of the mod, but I've always thought the ocean tiles seemed quite empty, so... There you go.
     
  15. tu_79

    tu_79 Deity

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    https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/communitu_79.648648/

    Do you like the number of atolls here?
     
    Chandler likes this.
  16. Thibix Magnus

    Thibix Magnus Chieftain

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    off current topic but just something about coastal tiles, they could simply get some raw tourism in the late game. Something tied to ideology tenet maybe, first paid leaves etc.
     

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