Colonies: when, how, and why?

[Civkid1991]

I remember reading about this in the pedia. I also vaguely remember seeing a comment on this...

I know that it requires you to settle a city on a new content (haven't had the chance to find out the details since I've been playing on N-Knight's Map mostly), but is there a population requirement and where in the diplomatic adviser screen do you find the option to turn a city/group of cities into a colony?

There's also the detail for the pedia that mentioned the colony becoming a vassal run by an AI. Does this mean that the a new <b>Civilization</b> will be created (ex. the banor, sidar, etc)? Or just a generic AI not related to any of the other civs (if that is even possible)?

So, history shows that colonies can be economically helpful and colonies also have the option of revolting and creating a new nation, but in my most recent game (playing as falamar) i planted a city on a new land mass (which contained E. The White) and it grew to population 2 and none of this happened. In fact, it was more of a burden then a blessing. How exactly does the colony option work? Do i have to capture a city on a different land mass instead/first? Is there a tech requirement?

It would be awesome if someone could show me how this workes

 

[SwordofStriker]

If memory serves, you have to have at least 2 cities on the separate landmass, and once you create the colony via the domestic advisor screen, the colony will become your vassal controlled by the AI. The leader will be one of the other leaders not currently in play. However in the case that all leaders are in play, then the colony will have one randomly chosen. That's pretty close if not on the mark. I should mention I'm talking from BTS experience here. I have not yet made a colony in FFH, but I would imagine the mechanics are the same.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

The machanics are the same in FfH. The only difference is that in BtS most civs have a dirivative civ that will be chosen to be their first colony, if not already in play, while none in FfH currently do. Oh yeah, also you can't liberate a colony if their are already the maximum number of players in the game. In ts that is 18, but in .25 it is 40 and in .30 is 35 (I think it was reduced to avoid multiple occurances of the same leader in one game, and/or to avoid errors caused by not having enough leaders)

(I often play on maps wiht lots of islands and try to found as many colonies as I can

I have been pushing for changing the way colonies work in FfH since before I got BtS. The 2 city and (more importantly) the different colony requirements should definately be dropped. The Khazad should be able to set the Luchuirp free so their vaults will stay full, and the Lanun should be able to let their landlocked cities govern themselves.

I also think that alternate leaders of the same civ should probably be more likely choices than other civs. I also don't think a good civ's colony should be an evil civ, or vice versa (neutral vassals or either or good/evil colonies of a neutral civ are fine)

 

[wicshade]

I was playing a game as calabim and my first colony i founded was malakim, which i thought was somewhat right on with the flavor of the 2 civs. I think it is cool for an evil civ to found a good colony, i think it is fun for them to fight for thier indepence from thier oppresors.

 

[Grey Fox]

Yeah well maybe it would have been better if the Colony in your situation had been Flauros (if you are Alexis).

 

[MagisterCultuum]

I was playing a game as calabim and my first colony i founded was malakim, which i thought was somewhat right on with the flavor of the 2 civs. I think it is cool for an evil civ to found a good colony, i think it is fun for them to fight for thier indepence from thier oppresors.

Right on the flavor? How is it appropriate for the Vampires, who were eternally cursed by Lugus for the Alexis's murder of one of his followers, to freely grant independance to Lugus-worshippers? The positive relations between these civs doesn't make sense. Varn is the worst choice for the Calabim to put in charge of their cities.

On the other hand, if cities could just openly rebel and break off from their parent civ without them being granted independance first, them he would be a very good choice of one to lead the rebels against their oppressive aristocracy.


(Personally I think it would be awesome if you were given a choice of whom to put in charge of your colonies, probably through triggering an event. There could also be rare random events where cities rise up against you without your permission.)

 

[Mewtarthio]

I was playing a game as calabim and my first colony i founded was malakim, which i thought was somewhat right on with the flavor of the 2 civs. I think it is cool for an evil civ to found a good colony, i think it is fun for them to fight for thier indepence from thier oppresors.

Really?

"Bah, we Calabim cannot be bothered with the cattle on the other continent. Let's choose some loser to ship overseas and run it for us."
"Behold, feindish vampires! I am a Bringer of Light! The very power of the Sun is channelled through me! Prepare to be destroyed!"
"Okay, you'll do. Merry Christmas."

I hope that the Mercurians and Infernals are both nixed from the "colony" list. That would just be silly.

"Excellent! My cities overseas are now in the care of my daughter, so I can at long last relax!"
"Um, milord? That wasn't your daughter to whom you gave control of the colonies. That was Hyborem in a wig and a dress."
"Really? How can you be so sure?"
"I'm your daughter."
"Oh, dammit all to hell!"
"Precisely."
"Quick, I have to rescind those orders!"
"Too late, sir. All the soldiers in the colony just transformed into demons. Every single one. Also, the land just transformed into a hellish world of fire and brimstone which spreads across the continent like an infection."
"Great. Could this day get any worse?"
"The Doviello accidentally turned control of their colonies over to an angel. We are now at war with both for pledging allegiance to the Forces of Hell."

 

[nealhunt]

In fact, it was more of a burden then a blessing. How exactly does the colony option work? Do i have to capture a city on a different land mass instead/first? Is there a tech requirement?

It would be awesome if someone could show me how this works

People already discussed the mechanics of forming the colony, so as to why it is a blessing instead of a curse...

The new colony starts as a vassal with a very large diplo bonus, meaning the chances of it breaking off are slim. You gain advantages by being a master - access to resources, a ready trading partner, a military ally, etc. - with dramatically reduced maintenance costs. BTS increased the distance penalty for cities on non-contiguous landmasses significantly, so overseas cities can become a serious drain on the economy. Forming colonies is a better economic situation than trying to maintain them as an integral part of your civ.

On the downside, you do still have to pay maintenance based on the number of cities. You don't pay directly for vassal cities but they count for your total number, raising the cost of your own cities. To provide an example, if you have 10 cities and a vassal with 3 cities, you pay maintenance on your 10 cities at the same maintenance rate you would pay if you had 13 cities.

Also on the downside, the vassal becomes an independent civ with its own score. You keep half of the points for their landmass and pop, but they get the rest so your point score drops.

The best colony strat in FFH is to spread your religion to the future colony before you release it. If it's already the dominant religion, the AI will probably convert immediately upon becoming a vassal. If not, you should probably be able to demand they convert fairly cheaply. That will give you an additional religion diplo bonus and for most of the religions will at least mitigate the alignment penalties if not switch it to a bonus.

 

[Grey Fox]

Each vassal state also give the Master civ +1 happy in each city.

 

[MisterBenn]

You gain advantages by being a master - access to resources

Does that mean you'll gain 2 or 3 additional mana resources for each colony vassal you produce? That could be of huge benefit to people collecting mana (the Amurites with the Cave of Ancestors / a player using mana affinity / hunting the Tower of Mastery)

 

[Mewtarthio]

I think it might be interesting to have the colonial diplomacy bonus drop off as the AC gets higher, to represent the whole "world breaking apart" idea. Say, every ten turns (on Normal; adjust for game speed), the "You have granted us our independence!" modifier is reduced by one-tenth of the AC. Or possibly just set the YHGUOI modifier equal to 10 - (AC/10) at all times.

Does that mean you'll gain 2 or 3 additional mana resources for each colony vassal you produce? That could be of huge benefit to people collecting mana (the Amurites with the Cave of Ancestors / a player using mana affinity / hunting the Tower of Mastery)

You gain access to any resources your colony has access to (by means of the master's right to demand resources from his vassal).

 

[nealhunt]

Does that mean you'll gain 2 or 3 additional mana resources for each colony vassal you produce? That could be of huge benefit to people collecting mana (the Amurites with the Cave of Ancestors / a player using mana affinity / hunting the Tower of Mastery)

As Mewtarthio notes, a master can demand one resource from a vassal without anything in trade. If the vassal isn't already Pleased, though, it counts as any other demand with a -1 diplo hit for making the demand.

Better than demanding is that the AI seems to take that power into account and will trade on very favorable terms if you trade instead of demanding. With Pleased/Friendly on top of that, you can usually access nearly anything a vassal has for a reasonable trade, i.e. 1-for-1, even if it's something like corn for iron.

As you are getting at, with each civ having its own palace mana, a couple of colonies can make a huge difference in mana availability once you establish trade.

 

[marioflag]

It would be a lot better from a flavour perspective if every colony created by a civ is the 2° leader of that civ, if you found 2 colonies and that civ has 3 leaders like Ljjosalfar, i would rather see them having 2° and 3° leader of that civ ruling them.
There should be also better choices when civs found new colonies like Bannor creating Elohim instead of CoE or Doviello, it makes games at least more interesting if you like to roleplay.

 

[marioflag]

I would also like to know if i can change colony leaders for every civ manually through xml or i need the python to do it.

 

[Civkid1991]

I would also like to know if i can change colony leaders for every civ manually through xml or i need the python to do it.

I think its python.. its pretty much random at the moment (last game i had falamar and the colony was ran by Sandolphon) If you search around in the python there's probably a function (method? not quite sure what they're named in python) that picks it randomly. If you change it from random to check leader civilization for other leaders then that would help with flavor

on another note: falamar and his civ should totally get a bonus or some characteristic for colonies

 

[Grey Fox]

on another note: falamar and his civ should totally get a bonus or some characteristic for colonies

I think Lanun should get lower maintanence on colonies so they don't have to create so many. I mean, they are island folk after all.

In Assets\XML\Civilizations\CIV4CivilizationInfos.xml

at each civilization entry, there is a tag called <DerivativeCiv>, and atm it's set to NONE for every civ I believe. This is the civ it would use for it's first colony I think.

 

[snarko]

I would also like to know if i can change colony leaders for every civ manually through xml or i need the python to do it.

Except for derative civ it's all handled in the SDK.


There's a reason why in the latest patch they made it so that you can't release vassals of civs already in the game. In some cases all you see is the civ name. For example when the AI asks you to declare war - are they asking you to declare war on Mahala of the Doviello that you hate or Charadon of the Doviello your best friend? If they're at war with both you have no way to tell since all it says is the Doviello.

 

[Farmer Bobathan]

I think colonies should become the civ (with a new name) that made them and it should have some random named leader with either random traits or no traits at all, that way you wont have problems with names or flavor issues. How hard would it be to implement this idea?

 

[Grey Fox]

I think colonies should become the civ (with a new name) that made them and it should have some random named leader with either random traits or no traits at all, that way you wont have problems with names or flavor issues. How hard would it be to implement this idea?

The revolution mod has done this.

 

[xienwolf]

Can be a bit tricky plucking random traits for FfH though. But I suppose if you limit it to the Adaptive options it can be passably decent. Do you just have a blank space for the leaderhead? Or the Civilization's Logo?