Colonists and Pioneers

[TranceBlossom]

The fact remains that colonists need a niche of some sort, otherwise they have nothing to offer over annexation/puppeting of a pre-existing city. 99.9% of the time, City plots aren’t available at that stage of the game unless you burn another city down.

What can a colonist bring to the table in modern era that a city which has existed for 2+ eras can’t?

My thinking is that they could get a free building That is unique to colonists: City Hall. +1, and +10% in the city.

A buff that big would make puppeting pointless. I can’t imagine ever choosing to puppet a city rather than raze it and replace it with a 110% yield powerhouse.

 

[pineappledan]

A buff that big would make puppeting pointless. I can’t imagine ever choosing to puppet a city rather than raze it and replace it with a 110% yield powerhouse.

The reason you puppet is because puppets don’t slow you down. You don’t have to stop a major city from building units/infrastructure to build a colonist, then safely escort the colonist to its new position. Settled cities also contribute to policy/tech costs. If you’re on a conquering spree, you probably don’t want the hassle of colonists, and prefer the simple placeholder of a puppet, especially if you have the requisite imperialism policies.

A new city that late in the game needs to pull its weight fast, or else it only becomes a happiness sink because it can’t keep its needs up in relation to cities which have existed for 100+ turns

There are lots of reasons to annex or puppet, but I see scant reasons to raze/replace that late in the game. If the city has a wonder, or has good population/infrastructure on capture then you won’t replace. Colonists won’t get used unless they are attractive enough for a player to invest the time and hammers into building them, escorting them, and razing a city to make room for them. Otherwise they are a dead unlock that is only useful in games where you start at a later tech era.

 

[Stalker0]

I don’t think there is a problem here. Colonists aren’t used not because they are bad, it’s because there is very rarely any land remaining at that point.

In the rare event there is land i use them, and they work great. In certain games where I do advanced starts, they work great.

They don’t need fixing, they just serve a very narrow niche.

 

[tu_79]

However, I think pinappledan is right. Most warmongers won't bother razing and resettling, as it is much faster to just puppet, and you don't want to lose momentum. Think that a 14 size city needs 14 turns for being razed, multiply that by each city in your way. Raze and resettle, though, could be an option for civs with a bonus for founding cities (China, Spain, going Authority) and that are not trying to conquer the whole world. But it should come with all pre-renaissance buildings built, castle included, and 8-10 pops. Otherwise, I don't think I'd ever consider using one colonist.

 

[CrazyG]

I don't raze and resettle past the very early game.

 

[Stalker0]

However, I think pinappledan is right. Most warmongers won't bother razing and resettling, as it is much faster to just puppet, and you don't want to lose momentum.

So that tells me the system is working, what is wrong with people puppeting?

 

[pineappledan]

what is wrong with people puppeting?

Nothing. Puppeting is good, it’s fine. Colonists aren’t though. They don’t constitute a viable option over annexing or puppeting. It’s not on the same footing. You claimed that colonists have a viable niche but I simply don’t see it. The opportunity to find a spot to settle in modern era without killing a city doesn’t exist. Period.

If we determine that raze/colonists do not need to be considered a viable alternative to puppet or annex then fine, but that needs to be stated.

 

[CrazyG]

They don’t constitute a viable option over annexing or puppeting. It’s not on the same footing. You claimed that colonists have a viable niche but I simply don’t see it. The opportunity to find a spot to settle in modern era without killing a city doesn’t exist. Period.

I don't think the colonists' intention is to compete with puppeting/annexing.

Its to claim land, usually for some special reason. Such as a canal on ice, to grab uranium, someone else razed a city, things like this.

Colonists should be available earlier in my opinion, they could lose a couple buildings if need be.

 

[Enginseer]

Colonists should be available earlier in my opinion, they could lose a couple buildings if need be.

But that's what Pioneers are there for tho

 

[pineappledan]

G has said many times that the tech tree is final, so I have been working from that assumption. I think enough room needs to be put between pioneers and colonists so where they are isn’t the problem.

If there is a problem. IF. Then it is that colonists are completely unused in most games. If we want to see people use them. IF. Then we need to make raze/resettle an attractive option. I think there is little to fear from giving colonists more power, because there are many things to make annexation attractive:

• Cultural influence could mean you get really high pop cities in conquest, far beyond a colonist’s starting pop
• Any wonders in a city are a strong incentive to puppet or annex
• Imperialism, autocracy and order all have policies which directly buff courthouses on empire, and make annexed cities a boon to your empire.

If colonists are going to have a niche, it is to replace peripheral, 2nd tier cities from another empire with your own instant metropolises. Just add water.

 

[CrazyG]

But that's what Pioneers are there for tho

What are colonists there for?

The gap between is already quite large.

G has said many times that the tech tree is final, so I have been working from that assumption. I think enough room needs to be put between pioneers and colonists so where they are isn’t the problem.

I believe "tech tree is final" means that we aren't moving around techs. It doesn't mean we cannot move a (totally unused) unit to another tech. Just moving it from biology to a tech in the column before it would let them be used much earlier.

Then we need to make raze/resettle an attractive option. I think there is little to fear from giving colonists more power, because there are many things to make annexation attractive

If you want warmongers to use them, a huge issue it that the unit unlocks on biology.

 

[chicorbeef]

Why don't we just add free Factories on Colonists so they can build everything real quick? The Imperialism policy used to do that so giving it back it to the Colonist would be cool.

Though I think the fundamental balance the two is mostly fine Biology is just such a weird tech. If it were available at Industrial that would be great. But I think if it's available at Modern it really ought to have a Factory.

 

[Enginseer]

Yikes, coal resources no longer a problem.

Also isn't there an ideology that exactly promotes razing...

 

[chicorbeef]

Yikes, coal resources no longer a problem.

Also isn't there an ideology that exactly promotes razing...

Free Factory from Slater Mill doesn't require Coal.

 

[Enginseer]

Free Factory from Slater Mill doesn't require Coal.

Ye, that's why coal resources are no longer a problem.

I feel Colonists granting 17 free buildings compared to 10 free buildings from pioneers and 13 free buildings from conquistadors is enough, but then again we did add 8 new buildings when colonists and pioneers were added.

 

[tu_79]

What I tried to say is that even in the case that colonist cities were better than puppeting the existing ones, most warmongers will not bother. It takes time to raze cities by that time, and building a colonist takes a few turns of not building or growing in one of your cities.
So, the target for colonist are non warmonger players (focusing biology also applies to the definition) that, for whatever reason, get to conquer a few crappy cities.
As it is now, it could as well not be there. There are very odd chances for having to capture a resource in a hostile land.

 

[vyyt]

You don't need to use every single unit type in every game. I think the colonist is there for these rare niche cases when you need to found a city in the later stage of the game (to claim a new recourse, to found a new outpost, block a rival, etc.).

If you do not need to found a new city, then don't

I am not against moving it a bit within the tech tree.

 

[pineappledan]

I like the free factory idea.

 

[CrazyG]

Has anyone stated that they don't use colonists because they don't give enough buildings? No.

So what will adding another building do exactly?

 

[tu_79]

Has anyone stated that they don't use colonists because they don't give enough buildings? No.

So what will adding another building do exactly?

Walls and castle would make the new city defensible. But anyways, I don't know by the description what buildings do colonist cities start with, or how many people. So real fact, I don't use them because I don't know if they are useful.