Combat formations

[Txurce]

Arioch, that makes both historical and common sense. But I wonder if there will be enough units to create a few rows in an offensive grouping?

 

[Sonereal]

Arioch, that makes both historical and common sense. But I wonder if there will be enough units to create a few rows in an offensive grouping?

Given the amount of resources I've seen in screenshots, you probably will.

 

[migkillertwo]

I think that keeping reserve melee units behind the front lines is going to be very important in any battle between two large armies. And in most cases, I think you're going to want to keep your best melee units in reserve whenever possible.

On his turn, the enemy can destroy nearly any single unit in your front line if he wants to, through bombardment and focused attacks from multiple units, so it will be key to have units in reserve to plug these holes. And, since you really can't prevent any front-line unit from being killed, you're probably going to want to have the reserves be your most elite units, so that they can provide decisive support and still have a chance to survive the battle.

Similarly, when you're the one doing the attacking and kill a unit in the enemy line, the unit you won the battle with has moved foward and now opened a hole in your own line (and is probably dead meat on the enemy's next turn), so you're going to need reserves to plug the hole at the very least (or continue the attack on other units if conditions permit).

So I think what you will see especially early on when Iron is limited, are formations with spear units in the first rank, and heavy infantry reserves interspersed with ranged units in the second and third ranks, and the odd mounted units on the flanks. The melee reserves can be several ranks deep, allowing for them to use the new two-space movement and unit swapping to jockey in and out of position with ranged units in the critical second rank.

As resources become more plentiful, more and more of your front line can be replaced with heavy infantry, but I think the wise commander will keep his most elite units in reserve.

I'm seeing some pretty big armies in these preview screenshots.

Kind of off-topic here, but All this speculation about the importance of reserve units, and the importance of not allowing holes to develop in lines really brings the genius of 1upt into the limelight. I mean absolutely none of these concepts existed in civ IV. any "reserves" were just more units in your SOD. Lines didn't matter because as long as you had more units than the enemy, they could completely surround your stack and it wouldn't make a hill-of-beans a difference.

amazing.

 

[Sonereal]

The combat complexity has went from "Rock'em Sock'em Robots" to "Chess+" so yeah. People are going to have fun.

 

[Txurce]

Fun? It almost makes you want to ignore the rest of the game!

If there are probably going to be enough units to field various rows, then I wonder if spacing would make sense, to let the enemy penetrate to a degree, the easier to then destroy those units. It's a version of my basic approach in simpler strategy games, where I tend to give way to the main enemy thrust, and then flank it. Against the AI, this would seem to be a pretty obvious tactic.

 

[AriochIV]

There are bonuses for adjacent friendly units and penalties for flanking, so putting spaces in your front line is problematic. In addition to the combat penalties, it allows the enemy to physically envelop a lone unit and kill it, potentially without leaving its own units vulnerable afterward. It also makes it much easier to exploit a breach, if there is no adjacent enemy unit to impose zone of control.

 

[Sonereal]

Fun? It almost makes you want to ignore the rest of the game!

I'm a Builder at heart but after reading In the Presence of Mine Enemies I've learned that leveling a city to the ground should give me a canvas to paint a new image.

If there are probably going to be enough units to field various rows, then I wonder if spacing would make sense, to let the enemy penetrate to a degree, the easier to then destroy those units. It's a version of my basic approach in simpler strategy games, where I tend to give way to the main enemy thrust, and then flank it. Against the AI, this would seem to be a pretty obvious tactic.

Like the Soviets did at Stalingrad? That tactic would be pretty AWESOME against AI since they simply aren't smart enough but against a player? Of course it may work against someone who doesn't see it.

I for one wouldn't want spacing if I'm fighting against another player but we're arguing for two different, but usable strategies which isn't something I've done much in CivIV.

 

[Txurce]

Yes - spacing against a player would be a bad idea most of the time. But I have a feeling it might be the way to beat the AI - both at the unit and the army level.

 

[Sonereal]

Yes - spacing against a player would be a bad idea most of the time. But I have a feeling it might be the way to beat the AI - both at the unit and the army level.

Unless they're using tanks in which case you're screwed so heavily it isn't funny.

Let's not forget that units can hide in forests.

 

[Lyoncet]

The combat complexity has went from "Rock'em Sock'em Robots" to "Chess+" so yeah. People are going to have fun.

One aspect of all this I really like is the role it casts faster units on. Outside specific situations like early game before the enemy has good city defenses and garrison units or when you use spies to bring down city defense, cavalry were pretty much the units whose movement points you wasted because they had to keep pace with your infantry and siege. With this setup, they're looking to have a much greater potential impact. Breach a hole? Get those horsemen/lancers behind your enemies for the extra attacks (greater surface area open), flank bonuses, and to keep them from falling back. Don't have enough melee to keep your ranks two deep? Put a few horsemen back there so they can plug a hole wherever it gets opened up.

WHY HAVE SO MANY GOOD THREADS APPEARED RECENTLY! I CAN'T STAND IT!

 

[asix79]

One aspect of all this I really like is the role it casts faster units on. Outside specific situations like early game before the enemy has good city defenses and garrison units or when you use spies to bring down city defense, cavalry were pretty much the units whose movement points you wasted because they had to keep pace with your infantry and siege. With this setup, they're looking to have a much greater potential impact. Breach a hole? Get those horsemen/lancers behind your enemies for the extra attacks (greater surface area open), flank bonuses, and to keep them from falling back. Don't have enough melee to keep your ranks two deep? Put a few horsemen back there so they can plug a hole wherever it gets opened up.

WHY HAVE SO MANY GOOD THREADS APPEARED RECENTLY! I CAN'T STAND IT!

In this sense, ciV has incorporated lessons learned from the Total War series, and it very well may revolutionize at least one aspect of the game.

 

[vaugula]

I agree with Arioch about wanting the best troops in reserve. This is, of course, what the Romans used to do with their most elite troops being the reserve to allow for hole plugging or counter attacking.

I'm thinking in the modern age you probably want 2 ranks of infantry to help avoid armour punching the hole and rolling you your line by denying the additional flanking spot while also providing the defensive support bonus.

There has been a reasonable amount of talk about counter-attacking on the defensive in this thread but it looks to me like on the defence you can also plausible retreat in good order. Plug the holes, bring up fresh troops and shorten the line if a salient has developed. Would allow the defender to give ground to allow more units to join the fight. Of course this hinges on the attacker not getting a lot of penetration with their mobile elements as these units will impeded any attempt to retreat with their ZOC and kind of force at least a mini counter attack by the defender to shutdown these forward elements. Increases the importance of double lines when on the defence and underlines the power of mobile elements pushed through the defenders line.

 

[Txurce]

'm thinking in the modern age you probably want 2 ranks of infantry to help avoid armour punching the hole and rolling you your line by denying the additional flanking spot while also providing the defensive support bonus.

There has been a reasonable amount of talk about counter-attacking on the defensive in this thread but it looks to me like on the defence you can also plausible retreat in good order. Plug the holes, bring up fresh troops and shorten the line if a salient has developed. Would allow the defender to give ground to allow more units to join the fight. Of course this hinges on the attacker not getting a lot of penetration with their mobile elements as these units will impeded any attempt to retreat with their ZOC and kind of force at least a mini counter attack by the defender to shutdown these forward elements. Increases the importance of double lines when on the defence and underlines the power of mobile elements pushed through the defenders line.

This is where I would guess the AI will have trouble. I'm sure it will have a basic sense of tactics, but not not in a chess computer looking-x-steps-ahead sort of way. Early on, when the AI is likely to have the biggest numerical edge on the higher levels, knowing where it's is headed on the defensive, or misdirection on the offensive, ought to reap historically typical victories against seemingly superior odds.

 

[CultureManiac]

This is where I would guess the AI will have trouble. I'm sure it will have a basic sense of tactics, but not not in a chess computer looking-x-steps-ahead sort of way. Early on, when the AI is likely to have the biggest numerical edge on the higher levels, knowing where it's is headed on the defensive, or misdirection on the offensive, ought to reap historically typical victories against seemingly superior odds.

Chess programs, though, also have playbooks of standard opening moves. I'm sure the AI will have some sort of playbook, so to speak, so it will understand basic, sound formations, optimal combinations of troops, etc. If not it'll be easy pickings.

 

[Thyrwyn]

I think we really need to start looking at what the best defensive strategies should/will be - because that will largely determine the offensive strategies used to counter them. Terrain plays such a huge part in this, and will often require a defensive line that is not straight: so when is it more important to maintain a strong line, and when is it more important to follow the defensive terrain (trees, hills, rivers)? You want the enemies front line in open terrain (-33% defensive penalty), and you want enough ranged units in your second line to punish those same units. . .

There are a lot of variable to consider - terrain will have a huge impact on effective strategies - not only because of the defensive advantages, but because they will restrict the movement of units forming up to attack and block sight lines for ranged units. I think that taking the time/turns to get your offensive lined up correctly is going to be vital against any kind of organized defensive front.

 

[pi-r8]

It seems to me that seige units like catapults, cannons, etc will be a lot more useful on the defensive than on the offensive. It's becuase of that 1 turn delay while they set up. On the offensive, if you move them into range and then wait a turn, something will attack them first. Of course you can also move melee units in front to protect them, but still you have absorb the first shot before you can do anything, and a lot of troops might die in the first shot. On defense, they will be already set up and won't have that problem.

That was basically how it worked in panzer general- artillery was great for defenders but tough to use on the offensive. A lot of offensive tactics revolved around finding ways to take out the defensive artillery, because after that was gone everything else was easy.

 

[DeepQantas]

Everything I've seen of the combat mechanics in CiV so far looks perfectly like Panzer General. Play the game and you'll see the worth of air units

I haven't seen a unit being dislodged (fleeing) in Civ V. The defender either dies or stands still.

Correct me if I'm wrong, tho.

 

[stealth_nsk]

I haven't seen a unit being dislodged (fleeing) in Civ V. The defender either dies or stands still.

Yes. Plus regarding air units - they work civ way, not panzer way.

 

[generalwar]

Now, you'll have to use new tactic for every age, because , in civ 4, you would stack everything since Ancient times till modern tanks and SAM's. Now, we should learn from Hannibal. Battle of Cannae, wher Hannibal defeated Rome's army that was twice as his.

Here's wikipedias description about Battle of Cannae and picture of strategy

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hannibal

Now, we wil be able to use ambushes because, you can't see every tile of your state unless you have a unit or city in that place, right?

So, you put your small army in the boundary woods and suddenly your archers start to fire on enemy troops which are coming to attack your state and axemens, or whatever who, crushes them and you are ready for counter-attack.

There will be ambushes in civ 5, right?

 

[Mannu]

As far as defensive alignment, considering the terrain I would try the following:

1) Place your strongest defensive unit (infantry) forward on the strongest defensive bonus tile
2) Flank left and right back hexes.
3) Ranged unit rear hex.
4) Mobile units on the flanks, but far enough away to not present a target.
5) Line should end, if possible on strong defensive tiles, probably with anti-mobile units such as spears.
6) Support units in the rear to counter where the enemy attacks.

In this setup:
1) The enemy must attack units on the strongest defensive tiles OR present their flanks to those units by attacking a unit that is set back from that unit.
2) Attacking units will be vulnerable to ranged fire from the rear hex.
3) The lines flanks are hopefully strong enough to hold while mobile units swoop in and flank the attackers flanking units.

vulnerabilities:
1) The forward defensive infantry can't be supported by reserves because the ranged unit in the rear hex means that the closest reserves are two tiles away. Might make a promotion for an extra movement point important for units you intend to act as reserves.
2) An attacking force that employs an unbalanced line and pushes hard on one of the flanks could cause problems, depending on the terrain behind your units. If successful it may cause the defensive line to have to shift, perhaps onto less defensively valuable tiles.