Communitas map script

[albie_123]

So what makes jungles and desert different from Tubdra?

With jungles, they actually aren't that bad for many reasons (bananas, science, etc.), but yes, desert is almost identical to tundra, in that it is barely usable unless there are resources or features in the area. The difference is, we have Civs that are better in desert (Arabia in BNW, Morocco in CEP) and so they can obviously deal with desert much better. That's why, in my opinion, only Civs with uniques that deal with terrain should have start biases.

 

[mitsho]

So why don't we have civs that are better in Tundra?

Isn't the area that every civ gets larger in Tundra, so it would still be a good place to start for a peaceful wide civ, i.e. perfect for the Shoshone with their extra land. Yes, I know they don't have a tundra unique...

 

[Thalassicus]

I plan to keep this map unaffected by any changes we make to the rest of the project. Let's focus on map creation here, and discuss gameplay alterations like beliefs or leaders in other threads. This one's already 10 pages long.

I expect to release a standalone mod containing this map in the near future. I finished the natural wonder placement code. I'm now working on bonus resource tweaks to balance the different terrain patterns of the map, so gameplay is as close to vanilla maps as possible.

 

[albie_123]

Alright. Just remember that in vanilla maps there are certainly geographic areas that are better than others.

 

[biship]

I've attempted to include anything important to the map script inside the map file itself. It should work alone... in theory. I've only played it with the mod activated. I'll test that later if I have time.

Communitas.lua calls AssignStartingPlots.Create()
Will it use the procedure from your \Gameplay\Terrain\AssignStartingPlots.lua if found, and if not found, use the default AssignStartingPlots.Create() ?

 

[Teholb]

Does anyone else feel as though the spawn placement biases the human player in terms of larger initial territory? I've been playing on the Communitas and, combined with the [gorgeous] complexity of the landscape (fjords and inlets; inland oceans and lakes), I'm having difficulty establishing early TRs, even as Arabia or Carthage. Everyone, except a rare CS or two, spawns 20 or more tiles away- frequently on the "more" side of things. I'm used to playing on Large 10/20, but even going down to Standard doesn't seem to help. It seems like the other civs and CS get clustered together, leaving me with a vast expanse of barbarous stagnation. Even when I do get a TR established, I have to defend so much territory between city tile raids and TR plundering that I end up losing them before they can even break even on the investment purely in terms of gold.

I've gone through the cache/moduserdata/validate procedure many times in the process of keeping up to date with Thal's furious updating pace, and the situation has not improved. I even tried playing as Harun al-Rashid, but the aforementioned barbarian incursions were simply too much to maintain such long routes.

 

[Gothic_Empire]

Teholb: I've been starting nut-to-butt with every civ. How large is your sample?

 

[mystikx21]

I've had a couple games like Teholb's where I seemed to be off by myself with a couple CSs and maybe another civ off shore, but once I was in the "cluster", so to speak. Standard maps seem to have a couple of civs off by themselves with a few CS's about. Which is fine, astronomy is supposed to matter (though if it's you that ends up that way, you can easily end up with about 10-15 good city locations unimpeded but for the continuous flow of barbarians).

It might be a random thing or might have to to with civ start preferences and relative equality of start locations ending up with a few civs/cs off in no-man's land.

 

[Teholb]

Perhaps nine games since BNW + CEP, so not that much. My very first game as Morocco, I was placed ideally between three other empires (isn't it funny how having neighbors suddenly isn't so terrible, as opposed to G&K?) and had a ball of the TRs- both incoming and outgoing. But with reliable consistency since then, I've been getting these odd starts. I'm about to start a game, I'll take a ss when I've explored a bit- I'm fairly certain it'll be the same shenanigans.

 

[Teholb]

Spoiler :

SS inside spoiler

Is that fairly typical? By land, Jakarta is around 14 tiles distant (so not too bad, relative to some of the others), 51 or 52 by sea. And then there's Ragusa, of course, which makes two trade partners for a fairly long time.

 

[Gothic_Empire]

Here's my latest game; Korea, huge map. Several capitals are visible on the minimap. Jakarta is right next to me, and the Shoshone & Moroccan capitals are each a few tiles off screen.

(Attila owns it at this point, though, and is marching on me.)

http://imgur.com/IalWJqC

 

[albie_123]

Playing on a large map pretty much means you'll have trouble with early trade, unfortunately.

 

[Thalassicus]

The game avoids placing people on bad land, creating open spots between the good areas. Adding bonuses to the bad land shrinks the uninhabitable areas, brings trading partners closer, and avoids excessive barbarians. The vanilla game normally does this balancing. Maps can control terrain and start locations, but not things like barbarian spawn rate or trade route distances.

If we want to prevent player isolation and clumping, we need that vanilla terrain balance. We could add stone or strategic resources to deserts, since people seem to dislike oases. This would spread out players more evenly. Vanilla terrain has some randomness, so it's not perfectly equal, but it's more balanced than the current map.

Notice how Teholb's screenshot has few rivers, with lots of desert and coast. The game considered this worse terrain than other start locations on his map, so it expanded his territory to provide more good city sites. This puts him out of range of trading partners. Adding more bonus resources to the terrain would improve his territory, so the game would shrink his land, bringing trading partners closer.

 

[Teholb]

That makes sense. *cough* I was basically clicking next turn and exploring carelessly to see what the map would look like for the purposes of the ss. Just sayin'


Anyway, it's not really a huge deal, and some others have expressed a desire for more "barren" or inhospitable areas. It requires expanding as quickly as possible toward the nearest galacti- err, cluster of civs! I would be fine with it either way, but I did want to confirm that it was normal behavior. It can definitely be an advantage, if worked correctly as you said, Thal.

 

[Tomice]

If we want to prevent player isolation and clumping, we need that vanilla terrain balance. We could add stone or strategic resources to deserts, since people seem to dislike oases. This would spread out players more evenly. Vanilla terrain has some randomness, so it's not perfectly equal, but it's more balanced than the current map.

I like some randomness! Good balance doesn't mean every game has to be the same. Full isolation before astronomy is a problem. Having to found a city before trade routes work isn't. It's totally ok if in one game I'm behind a narrow mountain pass (isolated, but protected) and fully exposed in the next game (with lots of trade and conquest possibilities).

 

[mitsho]

Gotta agree here, some randomness is totally ok. I'm rather that instead of balancing the terrain inbetween, we'd move a City State to these places (to allow for trade). If that's possible of course

 

[Ahriman]

I don't think it is a problem to have some players more isolated than others (and to have city states nearby as trade partners).

 

[albie_123]

This is fine, as long as we adjust for large and giant maps. It's one thing to be isolated when you can found a second city that can trade, it's another to be entirely isolated until you have a large civilization running AND trade techs.

 

[EricB]

One thing that I've tried before on large and especially huge maps is to add more AI players to the map. Try playing a huge map with 16 or 18 players instead of 12.

 

[black213]

I'm liking the map but I have one complaint (including the base game map scripts though).
It's the lack of versatility in luxury resources. Sometimes I start in an area with only 1-2 copies of luxury that I already have in my capital site, forcing me to go tall...
I tend to avoid settling cities without gaining unique luxuries with them.