Community Ideas: Diplomacy Flavors for AI Leaders

[Recursive]

Hey! It's Recursive, your favorite endless loop CTD incarnate! Today I'm bringing you, the Vox Populi community, an opportunity to shape AI personality!

So for a while I've been bothered by the VP handling of AI diplomacy flavors. I'll first explain the current system:

1. AIs are given a "personality" (this is not the same as the "diplo personality" mechanic I added; it only affects XML values).

The personality choices are CONQUEROR, COALITION, DIPLOMAT and EXPANSIONIST. I'll list which leaders get which personality below.

2. Based on personality, the leader is assigned certain diplomacy flavors.

Conqueror:

Spoiler :

Civs:
Ashurbanipal
Harald Bluetooth
Attila
Oda Nobunaga
Genghis Khan
Napoleon
Gustavus Adolphus
Montezuma
Augustus Caesar
Askia
Shaka

Flavors:
Wonder Competitiveness = 4
Minor Civ Competitiveness = 3
Boldness = 6
Warmonger Hate = 3
Denounce Willingness = 7
DoF Willingness = 2
Victory Competitiveness = 8
Diplo Balance = 4
Loyalty = 5
Neediness = 6
Forgiveness = 2
Chattiness = 4
Meanness = 9

Coalition:

Spoiler :

Civs:
Pacal
Sejong
Pachacuti
Elizabeth
Maria I
Casimir III
Kamehameha
William
Isabella
Washington

Flavors:
Wonder Competitiveness = 6
Minor Civ Competitiveness = 7
Boldness = 4
Warmonger Hate = 7
Denounce Willingness = 9
DoF Willingness = 6
Victory Competitiveness = 8
Diplo Balance = 8
Loyalty = 7
Neediness = 4
Forgiveness = 8
Chattiness = 4
Meanness = 5

Diplomat:

Spoiler :

Civs:
Hiawatha
Theodora
Pocatello
Maria
Pedro II
Gandhi
Ahmad Almansur
Bismarck
Ramkhamhaeng
Haile Selassie

Flavors:
Wonder Competitiveness = 8
Minor Civ Competitiveness = 9
Boldness = 2
Warmonger Hate = 9
Denounce Willingness = 3
DoF Willingness = 8
Victory Competitiveness = 8
Diplo Balance = 6
Loyalty = 9
Neediness = 8
Forgiveness = 6
Chattiness = 4
Meanness = 3

Expansionist:

Spoiler :

Civs:
Boudicca
Harun al-Rashid
Nebuchadnezzar
Dido
Alexander
Catherine
Ramesses II
Wu Zetian
Suleiman
Darius I
Gajah Mada

Flavors:
Wonder Competitiveness = 2
Minor Civ Competitiveness = 5
Boldness = 8
Warmonger Hate = 5
Denounce Willingness = 5
DoF Willingness = 4
Victory Competitiveness = 8
Diplo Balance = 2
Loyalty = 3
Neediness = 2
Forgiveness = 4
Chattiness = 4
Meanness = 7

3. Civs are then given a second personality, which controls the approach biases towards City-States. Yes, I know this is confusing (this is why I want to rework the system).

City-State Conqueror:

Spoiler :

Civs:
Ashurbanipal
Harald Bluetooth
Attila
Oda Nobunaga
Genghis Khan
Isabella
Gustavus Adolphus
Montezuma
Augustus Caesar
Askia
Shaka

Flavors:
Ignore City-State = 6
Friendly City-State = 2
Protective City-State = 4
Conquest City-State = 8
Bully City-State = 6

City-State Coalition:

Spoiler :

Civs:
Sejong
Pachacuti
Elizabeth
Casimir III
Pedro II
Haile Selassie
Harun al-Rashid
Washington
Napoleon
Alexander
Enrico Dandolo

Flavors:
Ignore City-State = 4
Friendly City-State = 8
Protective City-State = 6
Conquest City-State = 2
Bully City-State = 6

City-State Diplomat:

Spoiler :

Civs:
Pacal
William
Theodora
Maria
Gandhi
Ahmad al-Mansur
Bismarck
Ramkhamhaeng
Kamehameha
Maria I

Flavors:
Ignore City-State = 2
Friendly City-State = 6
Protective City-State = 8
Conquest City-State = 4
Bully City-State = 6

City-State Expansionist:

Spoiler :

Civs:
Hiawatha
Pocatello
Boudicca
Nebuchadnezzar
Dido
Catherine
Ramesses
Wu Zetian
Suleiman
Darius I
Gajah Mada

Flavors:
Ignore City-State = 6
Friendly City-State = 2
Protective City-State = 6
Conquest City-State = 8
Bully City-State = 4

4. Civs get customized approach biases towards major civs (each leader has a set bias for each approach). For the full list, see here.

5. These flavors are randomized by +/- 2. They cannot be higher than 10, nor lower than 1.

Problems with the Current System
It works okay, but...

- It's an approximation which doesn't necessarily play to each leader's strengths.

- It makes the Random Personalities option less interesting because civs are more predictable.

- Some leader/flavor combinations don't make sense (Diplomats have less DiploBalance than Coalition? Kamehameha more likely to protect City-States than Alexander? Ramesses II only having 2 Wonder Competitiveness and being an Expansionist? Babylon being aggressive towards City-States?)

- All leaders have 8 Victory Competitiveness by default. Competitive leaders are good, but having everyone the same kind of kills variety.

- It's confusing!

My Proposed Solution
Instead of using this confusing approximate double personality system, simply tailor every leader's flavors to fit their personality and traits! It's already done for major civ approaches, so why not expand this to the other flavors as well?

And that's where you all come in! Yes, I could do this on my own, but I'm not as much of a history nerd as others here like @pineappledan and don't know all the historical background for these leaders and civilizations. It's also just something I'd like to get community feedback about on principle.

Rules
So I'll explain how this will work! It would be chaotic if I tried to field suggestions for every leader and every flavor at the same time, so I'll place them in four equal subgroups by alphabetical order.

Group 1 will be:
Ahmad al-Mansur (Morocco)
Alexander (Greece)
Ashurbanipal (Assyria)
Askia (Songhai)
Attila (The Huns)
Augustus Caesar (Rome)
Bismarck (Germany)
Boudicca (The Celts)
Casimir III (Poland)
Catherine (Russia)
Darius I (Persia)

1. I'll make a post for each group listing the leaders as well as their major civ approach biases.

2. Others from the community will have some time (a week?) to give their suggestions for what each leader's flavors should be.

3. You can give suggestions for both the existing major civ approach biases and the other flavors (although it's mostly the new flavors I want ideas for!)

4. Remember that these flavors are scores out of 10 that are randomized by +/- 2. So a leader with 7/10 Minor Civ Competitiveness has 70% of the maximum competitiveness for City-State Influence by default, and it could range between 50% and 90% during any given game.

5. Flavors cannot go above 10 and cannot go below 1!

Note: If a flavor is at the maximum (10/10) then it will be randomized between 8 and 12, thus 60% of the time it will be at 10 (since it can't go higher than that). Likewise, if a flavor is at the minimum (1/10) then it will be randomized between -1 and 3, and 60% of the time it will be at 1 (since it can't go lower than that).

6. Please explain the reasoning for your suggestions or they will not be taken as seriously!

7. Do not give suggestions for the Chattiness flavor, this is intentionally set fairly low to prevent AI message spam. Also, the distinction between "Friendly" and "Protective" is a pointless Firaxis distinction that I intend to remove. So Friendly/Protective will be combined into a single approach in the future. This will be reflected in the blank suggestion template I will provide.

8. To prevent the AI from getting too un-competitive, Victory Competitiveness should be no lower than 6.

9. A description of what each flavor does will follow in the second post.

Thank you for your ideas and may your civilizations stand the test of time!

 

[Recursive]

Victory Competitiveness

High flavor:
- Gets angry at you faster as you get close to victory
- Increases opinion penalty for victory competition
- More likely to hate you/declare war for victory competition
- More likely to like you if you're not competing with them for victory
- More likely to end a DoF with you early over victory competition

Wonder Competitiveness

High flavor:
- More likely to adopt the "Cultural" Diplomatic Personality
- Gets angry at you faster for World Wonder competition
- More likely to attack you for spamming World Wonders
- More likely to hate you/declare war for World Wonder competition
- More likely to end a DoF with you early over World Wonder competition

Minor Civ Competitiveness

Higher flavor:
- More likely to adopt the "Diplomat" Diplomatic Personality
- Gets angry at you faster for City-State Influence competition
- More likely to end a DoF with you early over City-State Influence competition
- More likely to hate you in the World Congress if you have a lot of City-State allies
- Increases the duration of "performed coup" opinion penalty

Boldness

Higher flavor:
- More likely to adopt the "Conqueror" Diplomatic Personality
- More likely to go for Domination Victory
- Significantly more likely to declare war, and more likely to take risks when declaring war
- More aggressive when settling, angrier at civs who settle near them, and requests a "no settling" promise at a greater distance when other civs settle near them
- More likely to adopt the WAR and HOSTILE approaches; less likely to adopt the AFRAID approach
- More likely to build units
- Less likely to give in to a demand
- Slightly riskier/more aggressive World Congress behavior

Diplo Balance (aka the "Status Quo" flavor)

Higher flavor:
- More likely to adopt the "Diplomat" and "Scientist" Diplomatic Personalities
- Increases aggression if you're getting too far ahead in Social Policies or Technologies
- Gets angry at you faster as you get close to victory
- More likely to adopt the NEUTRAL approach
- More likely to warn the target of a coop war if they like them
- Makes peace more quickly
- More likely to denounce a friend they have a negative opinion of
- Increases warmongering penalties
- Increases the friendliness effect of giving them gifts/favorable trades
- Supporting their World Congress interests has a greater effect on their approach
- Increases duration of World Congress opinion bonuses & penalties

Warmonger Hate

Higher flavor:
- More likely to adopt the "Scientist" Diplomatic Personality
- Significantly increases warmongering penalties
- More likely to end a DoF early over warmongering

Denounce Willingness

Higher flavor:
- More likely to denounce players they don't like
- More likely to adopt the DECEPTIVE (and sometimes the HOSTILE) approach
- More likely to denounce a friend they don't like

DoF Willingness

Higher flavor:
- More likely to adopt the "Cultural" Diplomatic Personality
- Increases max DoF limit
- Less likely to declare war
- More likely to adopt the FRIENDLY approach
- More likely to hate/declare war on players who have denounced or declared war on the players they would like to befriend/make a DP with
- More likely to resurrect players
- More likely to lower taxes on vassals

Loyalty

Higher flavor:
- More likely to adopt the "Diplomat" Diplomatic Personality
- More likely to agree to Requests for Help from friends
- More likely to hate/declare war on players who have denounced or declared war on the players they are already friends/DPs with
- Increases the friendliness effect of giving them gifts/favorable trades
- Increases the duration of most opinion bonuses
- Slightly more likely to agree to a Defensive Pact
- More likely to warn the target of a coop war if they like them
- Less likely to end a DoF early for any reason
- Less likely to backstab other civs
- Less tolerance for backstabbing and breaking agreements with other civs
- More likely to resurrect players

Neediness

Higher flavor:
- Increases penalty for refusing a request they make to a friend
- Increases bonus/penalty from similar Social Policies

NEW:
- Increases amount/frequency of requests for help
- Increases opinion/approach bonuses for NOT competing with the AI

Forgiveness

Higher flavor:
- Reduces the duration of most opinion penalties
- Less likely to adopt the GUARDED approach
- More tolerance for denouncing friends and breaking agreements with other civs

Meanness

Higher flavor:
- More likely to adopt the "Conqueror" Diplomatic Personality
- More likely to adopt the WAR and HOSTILE approaches
- More likely to declare war, particularly if a demand is refused, they bully/attack your protected City-State, or you select the mean dialogue response
- More likely to be FRIENDLY to people who denounce/war their biggest competitor
- More likely to denounce friends they don't like
- Requests more stuff when they make demands
- Makes peace more slowly
- Gets angry at you faster as you get close to victory
- More likely to raise taxes on vassals
- Increases likelihood of sending certain taunts (nothing important)

Chattiness

Higher flavor:
- Increases likelihood of sending certain flavor messages (nothing important)

Major Civ Approach Biases: Higher values make it more likely the leader will adopt that approach instead of others.

FRIENDLY - friendly relations, more likely to agree to requests and be nice (also more likely to adopt the "Cultural" Diplomatic Personality)

NEUTRAL - no strong feelings one way or the other

AFRAID - scared, much more likely to agree to requests, but they don't necessarily like you

GUARDED - on the defensive and wary of you, less likely to agree to requests and be nice

DECEPTIVE - pretending to be FRIENDLY but really plotting against you, may declare war

HOSTILE - aggressive and bullying towards you, much less likely to agree to requests, more likely to denounce, may declare war

WAR - self-explanatory; WAR AIs may pretend to be FRIENDLY, NEUTRAL, GUARDED or HOSTILE while they prepare for their war against you

In addition:
- Higher FRIENDLY bias makes it more likely the leader will adopt the "Cultural" Diplomatic Personality
- Higher NEUTRAL bias makes it more likely the leader will adopt the "Scientist" Diplomatic Personality
- Higher WAR bias makes it more likely the leader will adopt the "Conqueror" Diplomatic Personality

Minor Civ Approach Biases: Higher values make it more likely the leader will adopt that approach instead of others.

IGNORE - don't care about this City-State

FRIENDLY/PROTECTIVE - try to increase Influence, fulfill quests, protect from attackers/bullies

BULLY - self-explanatory; AI will only try to bully one City-State at a time

CONQUEST - self-explanatory; AI will only try to conquer one City-State at a time

 

[Stalker0]

Recursive, to make sure I understand what you want, here is an example format (the numbers ARE COMPLETELY MADE UP).

Greece (Alexander)

Wonder Competitiveness = 6
Minor Civ Competitiveness = 7
Boldness = 4
Warmonger Hate = 7
Denounce Willingness = 9
DoF Willingness = 6
Victory Competitiveness = 8
Diplo Balance = 8
Loyalty = 7
Neediness = 4
Forgiveness = 8
Chattiness = 4
Meanness = 5

Ignore City-State = 6
Friendly City-State = 2
Protective City-State = 4
Conquest City-State = 8
Bully City-State = 6


Is that what you want, a straight list with proposed flavors and then rationale?

 

[Recursive]

Suggestions for Group 1 are now closed.

The flavors I've selected for the civs in Group 1 are listed below. If you have further ideas/suggestions, please submit them by private message to help keep the thread organized.

For an explanation of what each flavor does, see the second post in this thread.

Ahmad al-Mansur (Morocco)
UA: +1 to all Yields in Capital per unique Trade Route partner, scaling with Era. Trade Route yields to or from Moroccan Cities are not affected by distance. Can plunder Trade Units connected to unowned Cities without declaring war.
UI: Kasbah
UU: Berber Cavalry

Flavors

Spoiler :

War Approach: 3/10
Hostile Approach: 4/10
Deceptive Approach: 9/10
Guarded Approach: 7/10
Afraid Approach: 5/10
Friendly Approach: 7/10
Neutral Approach: 4/10

Victory Competitiveness: 7/10
Wonder Competitiveness: 6/10
Minor Civ Competitiveness: 7/10
Boldness: 6/10
Diplo Balance: 7/10
Warmonger Hate: 5/10
Denounce Willingness: 6/10
DoF Willingness: 7/10
Loyalty: 4/10
Neediness: 6/10
Forgiveness: 5/10
Meanness: 5/10

Ignore City-State: 4/10
Friendly/Protect City-State: 7/10
Bully City-State: 6/10
Conquer City-State: 3/10

Alexander (Greece)
UA: City-State Influence degrades at half and recovers at twice the normal rate. Each City-State alliance boosts the Combat Strength of owned and allied Units by +5% (up to +25% total). City-State territory treats owned Units as friendly Units (if not at war).
UB: Acropolis
UU: Hoplite

Flavors

Spoiler :

War Approach: 9/10
Hostile Approach: 7/10
Deceptive Approach: 2/10
Guarded Approach: 5/10
Afraid Approach: 1/10
Friendly Approach: 7/10
Neutral Approach: 4/10

Victory Competitiveness: 8/10
Wonder Competitiveness: 3/10
Minor Civ Competitiveness: 10/10
Boldness: 10/10
Diplo Balance: 7/10
Warmonger Hate: 2/10
Denounce Willingness: 7/10
DoF Willingness: 5/10
Loyalty: 7/10
Neediness: 3/10
Forgiveness: 4/10
Meanness: 8/10

Ignore City-State: 1/10
Friendly/Protect City-State: 9/10
Bully City-State: 2/10
Conquer City-State: 6/10

Ashurbanipal (Assyria)
UA: When you conquer a City, gain either a Technology already known by the owner or, if impossible, a large Science boost. All Great Works produce +3 Science.
UB: Royal Library
UU: Siege Tower

Flavors

Spoiler :

War Approach: 8/10
Hostile Approach: 8/10
Deceptive Approach: 6/10
Guarded Approach: 6/10
Afraid Approach: 3/10
Friendly Approach: 3/10
Neutral Approach: 6/10

Victory Competitiveness: 8/10
Wonder Competitiveness: 5/10
Minor Civ Competitiveness: 2/10
Boldness: 8/10
Diplo Balance: 10/10
Warmonger Hate: 7/10
Denounce Willingness: 6/10
DoF Willingness: 3/10
Loyalty: 3/10
Neediness: 9/10
Forgiveness: 5/10
Meanness: 8/10

Ignore City-State: 6/10
Friendly/Protect City-State: 3/10
Bully City-State: 8/10
Conquer City-State: 9/10

Askia (Songhai)
UA: Triple Gold from pillaging Encampments and Cities. Land Units gain the War Canoe and Amphibious Promotions, and ignore terrain costs when adjacent to Rivers. Rivers create City Connections.
UB: Tabya
UU: Mandekalu Cavalry

Flavors

Spoiler :

War Approach: 8/10
Hostile Approach: 5/10
Deceptive Approach: 9/10
Guarded Approach: 7/10
Afraid Approach: 4/10
Friendly Approach: 5/10
Neutral Approach: 6/10

Victory Competitiveness: 10/10
Wonder Competitiveness: 6/10
Minor Civ Competitiveness: 4/10
Boldness: 7/10
Diplo Balance: 4/10
Warmonger Hate: 7/10
Denounce Willingness: 7/10
DoF Willingness: 4/10
Loyalty: 1/10
Neediness: 6/10
Forgiveness: 3/10
Meanness: 9/10

Ignore City-State: 5/10
Friendly/Protect City-State: 4/10
Bully City-State: 9/10
Conquer City-State: 7/10

Attila (The Huns)
UA: Friendly and Enemy War Weariness is modified by 50%. Mounted Melee and Armor Units capture defeated Units. Claims adjacent unowned land tiles when Cities earn a tile of the same type.
UI: Eki
UU: Horse Archer

Flavors

Spoiler :

War Approach: 9/10
Hostile Approach: 9/10
Deceptive Approach: 6/10
Guarded Approach: 3/10
Afraid Approach: 4/10
Friendly Approach: 6/10
Neutral Approach: 3/10

Victory Competitiveness: 7/10
Wonder Competitiveness: 4/10
Minor Civ Competitiveness: 4/10
Boldness: 9/10
Diplo Balance: -1/10 (always minimum)
Warmonger Hate: 2/10
Denounce Willingness: 5/10
DoF Willingness: 3/10
Loyalty: 3/10
Neediness: 10/10
Forgiveness: 8/10
Meanness: 10/10

Ignore City-State: 4/10
Friendly/Protect City-State: 4/10
Bully City-State: 9/10
Conquer City-State: 7/10

Augustus Caesar (Rome)
UA: When you conquer a City, the City retains all Buildings and you immediately acquire additional territory around the City. +15% Production towards Buildings present in Capital.
UB: Colosseum
UU: Legion

Flavors

Spoiler :

War Approach: 9/10
Hostile Approach: 3/10
Deceptive Approach: 1/10
Guarded Approach: 5/10
Afraid Approach: 5/10
Friendly Approach: 2/10
Neutral Approach: 8/10

Victory Competitiveness: 8/10
Wonder Competitiveness: 8/10
Minor Civ Competitiveness: 2/10
Boldness: 7/10
Diplo Balance: 3/10
Warmonger Hate: 5/10
Denounce Willingness: 2/10
DoF Willingness: 2/10
Loyalty: 3/10
Neediness: 4/10
Forgiveness: 1/10
Meanness: 8/10

Ignore City-State: 3/10
Friendly/Protect City-State: 2/10
Bully City-State: 6/10
Conquer City-State: 10/10

Bismarck (Germany)
UA: +3 Culture and Golden Age Points per City-State Ally, and +3 Science and Golden Age Points per City-State Friend, scaling with Era. 1 Additional Delegate in World Congress for every 3 City-State Allies.
UB: Hanse
UU: Panzer

Flavors

Spoiler :

War Approach: 6/10
Hostile Approach: 5/10
Deceptive Approach: 6/10
Guarded Approach: 8/10
Afraid Approach: 5/10
Friendly Approach: 5/10
Neutral Approach: 10/10

Victory Competitiveness: 7/10
Wonder Competitiveness: 5/10
Minor Civ Competitiveness: 9/10
Boldness: 5/10
Diplo Balance: 9/10
Warmonger Hate: 8/10
Denounce Willingness: 5/10
DoF Willingness: 8/10
Loyalty: 6/10
Neediness: 5/10
Forgiveness: 8/10
Meanness: 9/10

Ignore City-State: 5/10
Friendly/Protect City-State: 10/10
Bully City-State: 2/10
Conquer City-State: 4/10

Boudicca (The Celts)
UA: Has a unique set of Pantheon Beliefs that no one else can benefit from. Owned Cities with your Religion neither generate nor receive foreign Religious Pressure. +3 Faith in owned Cities where your Religion is the majority.
UB: Ceilidh Hall
UU: Pictish Warrior

Flavors

Spoiler :

War Approach: 7/10
Hostile Approach: 7/10
Deceptive Approach: 6/10
Guarded Approach: 5/10
Afraid Approach: 2/10
Friendly Approach: 4/10
Neutral Approach: 5/10

Victory Competitiveness: 10/10
Wonder Competitiveness: 6/10
Minor Civ Competitiveness: 4/10
Boldness: 8/10
Diplo Balance: 6/10
Warmonger Hate: 9/10
Denounce Willingness: 6/10
DoF Willingness: 6/10
Loyalty: 6/10
Neediness: 7/10
Forgiveness: 6/10
Meanness: 5/10

Ignore City-State: 5/10
Friendly/Protect City-State: 5/10
Bully City-State: 5/10
Conquer City-State: 5/10

Casimir III (Poland)
UA: Gain 1 Free Social Policy in the Classical Era, and in every other Era after. Gain 2 additional Free Tenets when you adopt an Ideology for the first time.
UB: Ducal Stable
UU: Winged Hussar

Flavors

Spoiler :

War Approach: 4/10
Hostile Approach: 6/10
Deceptive Approach: 6/10
Guarded Approach: 9/10
Afraid Approach: 5/10
Friendly Approach: 8/10
Neutral Approach: 6/10

Victory Competitiveness: 6/10
Wonder Competitiveness: 6/10
Minor Civ Competitiveness: 5/10
Boldness: 5/10
Diplo Balance: 8/10
Warmonger Hate: 7/10
Denounce Willingness: 7/10
DoF Willingness: 5/10
Loyalty: 9/10
Neediness: 8/10
Forgiveness: 2/10
Meanness: 5/10

Ignore City-State: 5/10
Friendly/Protect City-State: 7/10
Bully City-State: 5/10
Conquer City-State: 5/10

Catherine (Russia)
UA: All Strategic Resources provide double their normal quantity. Receive +20 Science when your borders expand naturally, scaling with Era. Border growth is 25% faster.
UB: Ostrog
UU: Cossack

Flavors

Spoiler :

War Approach: 7/10
Hostile Approach: 7/10
Deceptive Approach: 2/10
Guarded Approach: 5/10
Afraid Approach: 3/10
Friendly Approach: 6/10
Neutral Approach: 3/10

Victory Competitiveness: 9/10
Wonder Competitiveness: 5/10
Minor Civ Competitiveness: 6/10
Boldness: 8/10
Diplo Balance: 3/10
Warmonger Hate: 4/10
Denounce Willingness: 9/10
DoF Willingness: 6/10
Loyalty: 7/10
Neediness: 9/10
Forgiveness: 6/10
Meanness: 9/10

Ignore City-State: 3/10
Friendly/Protect City-State: 7/10
Bully City-State: 8/10
Conquer City-State: 6/10

Darius I (Persia)
UA: Golden Ages last 50% longer, and 10% of your Gold income converts into Golden Age Points every turn. During a Golden Age, Units receive +1 Movement and a +15% Combat Strength bonus.
UB: Satrap's Court
UU: Immortal

Flavors

Spoiler :

War Approach: 7/10
Hostile Approach: 4/10
Deceptive Approach: 5/10
Guarded Approach: 8/10
Afraid Approach: 6/10
Friendly Approach: 6/10
Neutral Approach: 7/10

Victory Competitiveness: 7/10
Wonder Competitiveness: 8/10
Minor Civ Competitiveness: 3/10
Boldness: 6/10
Diplo Balance: 6/10
Warmonger Hate: 4/10
Denounce Willingness: 6/10
DoF Willingness: 5/10
Loyalty: 5/10
Neediness: 5/10
Forgiveness: 5/10
Meanness: 4/10

Ignore City-State: 6/10
Friendly/Protect City-State: 4/10
Bully City-State: 4/10
Conquer City-State: 10/10

 

[Recursive]

Recursive, to make sure I understand what you want, here is an example format (the numbers ARE COMPLETELY MADE UP).

Greece (Alexander)

Wonder Competitiveness = 6
Minor Civ Competitiveness = 7
Boldness = 4
Warmonger Hate = 7
Denounce Willingness = 9
DoF Willingness = 6
Victory Competitiveness = 8
Diplo Balance = 8
Loyalty = 7
Neediness = 4
Forgiveness = 8
Chattiness = 4
Meanness = 5

Ignore City-State = 6
Friendly City-State = 2
Protective City-State = 4
Conquest City-State = 8
Bully City-State = 6


Is that what you want, a straight list with proposed flavors and then rationale?

Yes, except without Chattiness.

Friendly/Protective will be merged into a single approach so you may as well write it "Friendly/Protective".

All ideas are appreciated!

 

[Milae]

Just wondering does this affect their choices outside of Diplomatic stuff? So Policy choices and what to build etc.

 

[Recursive]

Just wondering does this affect their choices outside of Diplomatic stuff? So Policy choices and what to build etc.

They have no effect outside of those listed.

There are other flavors for each leader, but I'm only addressing diplomacy for now.

 

[pineappledan]

high Neediness could increase the diplomatic penalty from refusing their demands

Does this mean I need to update all my custom civs with the new values?

 

[Recursive]

high Neediness could increase the diplomatic penalty from refusing their demands

Does this mean I need to update all my custom civs with the new values?

Yeah, that's the only thing it does right now.

There is default handling for custom civs in LeaderCompatibility.sql. So no, you don't have to if you don't want to.

 

[pineappledan]

When this is rolled out, please let me know where to find the reference files, or post a template for the new tables/columns

 

[Guynemer]

question: do you want these values to synergize with the leader's unique abilities, units, and infrastructure? Or do want them to be historically "accurate" which may have no or even negative synergy with their uniques?

 

[Recursive]

question: do you want these values to synergize with the leader's unique abilities, units, and infrastructure? Or do want them to be historically "accurate" which may have no or even negative synergy with their uniques?

It should be mostly tailored to the AI's strategic interests (i.e. warmongers should like to war, Ramesses should have more than 2/10 Wonder Competitiveness) but historical influence and fun/balance are also valid considerations.

 

[pineappledan]

Hopefully, historic considerations are already enough of a factor in the civ's design that you need only concern yourself with how to get the AI to maximize any given set of tools the civ has.

As bizarre as it is to see Ahmad Al Mansur, the guy who destroyed the Songhai empire, have a war bias of 1, that's the kit he was given, so he's got to be good at using it.

 

[Hinin]

Hopefully, historic considerations are already enough of a factor in the civ's design that you need only concern yourself with how to maximize any given set of tools the civ has.

As bizarre as it is to see Ahmad Al Mansur, the guy who destroyed the Songhai empire, have a war bias of 1, that's the kit he was given, so he's got to be good at using it.

Well, I less see Ahmad al-Mansur as a warmonger and more as a risktaker : his main objective during the Songhai campaign seems to have been the refilling of Moroccan coffers by attacking a declining power. So maybe low meanness but high boldness and Victor competitiveness (for example) ? Plus if Morocco produced more units, which it usually can do thanks to its high gold incombe, it would make the civ more assertive and able to benefit from its military components (TR pillaging and defensive UI which helps forward-settling).

 

[Recursive]

Hopefully, historic considerations are already enough of a factor in the civ's design that you need only concern yourself with how to maximize any given set of tools the civ has.

As bizarre as it is to see Ahmad Al Mansur, the guy who destroyed the Songhai empire, have a war bias of 1, that's the kit he was given, so he's got to be good at using it.

Well, I less see Ahmad al-Mansur as a warmonger and more as a risktaker : his main objective during the Songhai campaign seems to have been the refilling of Moroccan coffers by attacking a declining power. So maybe low meanness but high boldness and Victor competitiveness (for example) ? Plus if Morocco produced more units, which it usually can do thanks to its high gold incombe, it would make the civ more assertive and able to benefit from its military components (TR pillaging and defensive UI which helps forward-settling).

I'm thinking of revisiting my old idea about having customized leader approach changes based on a leader's traits as well, but I won't get ahead of myself here.

WAR bias is the absolute largest contributor to whether a civ will adopt the WAR approach, but high Boldness influences the likelihood of war declarations via coop/bribed wars too. Your idea isn't a bad one, though.

This is the kind of discussion I'd like to see, feel free to provide any other thoughts/ideas you have!

 

[Milae]

Not gonna lie I'm sure many of you know much more than me about historical stuff but I'll base this off what I know about Romans in general and how I would play as Rome in VP (I don't know much about Augustus specifically). Generally I think Roman approach to the game should be very warlike but also very pragmatic. So only conquering for their own benefits rather than for any personal or diplomatic reasons. Most of the reasons they were nice to others was to try to 'conquer' them peacefully which isn't really a thing in civ so they will have to do it the military way.

Augustus Caesar (Rome)

Victory Competitiveness = 9: I assume Romans thought they were the best ever so they'd always want to win by any means.

Wonder Competitiveness = 8: Not sure about this one but I think they were quite keen on conquering cool wonders from other Civs, like the ones in Ancient Greece. And I can imagine Romans getting pretty envious if one of their neighbours built something cool.

Minor Civ Competitiveness = 2: I know they did like to ally smaller states but the goal was to take them into Roman empire in the future so I'm going to say their approach to city states is more to conquer them than ally them.

Boldness = 8: Obviously they like to conquer stuff but I'm not going to go crazy high with it since I know there was at least some resistance from the senate/public to going to war if it wasn't necessary. For the purposes of civ though they should be quite aggressive since that's what they have bonuses in.

Diplo Balance = 2: As far as I know they didn't often get involved in things which didn't involve them directly.

Warmonger Hate = 3: Same as above.

Denounce Willingness = 2: Think they just attack people if they don't like them.

DoF Willingness = 2: I don't know of them having many long term allies.

Loyalty = 1: Same as above

Neediness = 1: Again I think they just do their own thing.

Forgiveness = 9: Think Roman diplomacy was quite pragmatic so they wouldn't care too much about what happened in the past.

Meanness = 8: I think they just do what's best for them so that is often being mean to others.

War Approach: 8/10
Hostile Approach: 2/10
Deceptive Approach: 2/10
Guarded Approach: 6/10
Afraid Approach: 1/10
Friendly Approach: 2/10
Neutral Approach: 7/10

Ignore City-State = 2 Again I think their approach to city states should be conquest/bully rather than being nice.
Friendly City-State = 1
Protective City-State = 1
Conquest City-State = 8
Bully City-State = 7

 

[Hinin]

These are some attempts for the leaders of the first batch. I disagree with @Milae on some parameters for Rome, but that's of no importance.

A lot of these leaders have warmongering tendencies, so having low "afraid" stats in this batch is normal.

Some archetypes have already emerged in my mind :

• The conqueror : high victory competitiveness, boldness and war stats
  
• The bully : high hostile and meanness stats, low loyalty and hates other warmongers
• The generalist : explains itself
  
• The opportunist : deceptive, with high forgiveness and low loyalty

I tried to give each civ parameters that benefit their playstyle, while always adding on or two extreme parameters (or at least unusual ones) reflecting their leader's life.

Spoiler A lot of numbers :

Spoiler Ahmad al-Mansur :

Ahmad al-Mansur (Morroco)

As I said, I see Ahmad al-Mansur as a risk taker. Plus, he was someone who didn't hesitate to strengthen his commercial relations with Christian powers while attacking a fellow Muslim power. As such, I see him as someone who is favorable to the statu quo while walking the fine line between a peaceful exterior and the will to weaken his neighbours. As such, he has an unusually high boldness, low loyalty and low warmonger hate for a commercial civ. At the same time, he should take more of a guarded/deceptive approach, which benefits his bonus to piracy, and be middle-of-the-road elsewhere.

Victory Competitiveness : 6
Wonder Competitiveness : 3
Minor Civ Competitiveness : 5
Boldness : 6
Diplo Balance : 8
Warmonger Hate : 5
Denounce Willingness : 6
DoF Willingness : 4
Loyalty : 4
Neediness : 5
Forgiveness : 5
Meanness : 5
Chattiness : 4

Friendly : 5
Neutral : 6
Afraid : 5
Guarded : 7
Deceptive : 7
Hostile : 4
War : 5

Ignore : 4
Friendly/protective : 7
Bully : 6
Conquest : 3

Spoiler Alexander :

Alexander (Greece)

Bold bold bold ! Enthousiastic youth mixed with the will to take what he wants. Very willing to ally CS to boost his bonus, and won't try to be sneaky about his intentions : you are on his road to glory or you are not.

Victory Competitiveness : 8
Wonder Competitiveness : 2
Minor Civ Competitiveness : 8
Boldness : 9
Diplo Balance : 4
Warmonger Hate : 3
Denounce Willingness : 3
DoF Willingness : 5
Loyalty : 6
Neediness : 7
Forgiveness : 6
Meanness : 7
Chattiness : 7

Friendly : 6
Neutral : 4
Afraid : 3
Guarded : 4
Deceptive : 2
Hostile : 7
War : 7

Ignore : 3
Friendly/protective : 9
Bully : 6
Conquest : 6

Spoiler Ashurbanipal :

Ashurbanipal (Assyria)

The Tradition bully master. Should usually adopt a "sphere of influence" mindset : very aggressive toward his neighbours, partisan of the statu quo elsewhere, and hates other conquerors.

Victory Competitiveness : 6
Wonder Competitiveness : 5
Minor Civ Competitiveness : 3
Boldness : 8
Diplo Balance : 8
Warmonger Hate : 7
Denounce Willingness : 6
DoF Willingness : 4
Loyalty : 4
Neediness : 8
Forgiveness : 4
Meanness : 7
Chattiness : 5

Friendly : 4
Neutral : 5
Afraid : 3
Guarded : 7
Deceptive : 6
Hostile : 8
War : 7

Ignore : 7
Friendly/protective : 3
Bully : 7
Conquest : 3

Spoiler Askia :

Askia (Songhai)

Whatever I said about Askia being more of an administrator than a warmonger, he was still a usurper and a bold one. As such, he should have a bully attitude, an extremely low loyalty (his defining feature), but at the same time shouldn't like other warmongers.

Victory Competitiveness : 6
Wonder Competitiveness : 3
Minor Civ Competitiveness : 5
Boldness : 7
Diplo Balance : 4
Warmonger Hate : 6
Denounce Willingness : 3
DoF Willingness : 3
Loyalty : 1
Neediness : 6
Forgiveness : 4
Meanness : 6
Chattiness : 6

Friendly : 5
Neutral : 6
Afraid : 4
Guarded : 7
Deceptive : 8
Hostile : 5
War : 8

Ignore : 5
Friendly/protective : 4
Bully : 7
Conquest : 6

Spoiler Attila :

Attila (The Huns)

Attila seems to have been first and foremost an opportunist. Willing to trade and obtain tribute for peace when needed, bully and conquer the rest of the time. As such, he has low diplo balance (he will try to make his wars as long as possible to wear you out thanks to his UA), low loyalty and extremely high boldness, neediness and meanness (expect tribute demands), so don't expect good relations to last if you fall behind. At the same time, he forgives others quite easily and warmongering doesn't bother him.

Victory Competitiveness : 7
Wonder Competitiveness : 1
Minor Civ Competitiveness : 5
Boldness : 9
Diplo Balance : 1
Warmonger Hate : 2
Denounce Willingness : 3
DoF Willingness : 3
Loyalty : 3
Neediness : 9
Forgiveness : 8
Meanness : 9
Chattiness : 7

Friendly : 5
Neutral : 4
Afraid : 3
Guarded : 3
Deceptive : 7
Hostile : 6
War : 9

Ignore : 4
Friendly/protective : 5
Bully : 8
Conquest : 7

Spoiler Augustus Caesar :

Augustus Caesar (Rome)

A highly competitive but pragmatic conqueror. He has a bit lower boldness than other warmongers (he will wait to have a full army before attacking) and hates other warmongers who disrupt his peace. An interesting feature of the Roman empire is just how resentful and tenacious they were : being their enemy once usually meant that they wouldn't stop harassing you until they get you down. Also, because of his UA, Augustus should be more willing to conquer CS than others.

Victory Competitiveness : 9
Wonder Competitiveness : 6
Minor Civ Competitiveness : 3
Boldness : 7
Diplo Balance : 5
Warmonger Hate : 7
Denounce Willingness : 3
DoF Willingness : 3
Loyalty : 3
Neediness : 8
Forgiveness : 2
Meanness : 7
Chattiness : 4

Friendly : 3
Neutral : 5
Afraid : 5
Guarded : 7
Deceptive : 2
Hostile : 3
War : 8

Ignore : 4
Friendly/protective : 6
Bully : 7
Conquest : 8

Spoiler Bismarck :

Bismarck (Germany)

A diplomatic civ with a lot of Realpolitik in its DNA : highly neutral in his approach, he can be ruthless when he decides to go all out against someone. At the same time, he will forgive other powers quite easily to not hinder his diplomatic web. Highly protectionist of his CS and will never appreciate you for playing the same game as him.

Victory Competitiveness : 8
Wonder Competitiveness : 5
Minor Civ Competitiveness : 9
Boldness : 6
Diplo Balance : 8
Warmonger Hate : 3
Denounce Willingness : 4
DoF Willingness : 4
Loyalty : 5
Neediness : 5
Forgiveness : 8
Meanness : 9
Chattiness : 7

Friendly : 5
Neutral : 9
Afraid : 5
Guarded : 8
Deceptive : 6
Hostile : 5
War : 6

Ignore : 2
Friendly/protective : 9
Bully : 3
Conquest : 4

Spoiler Boudicca :

Boudicca (The Celts)

A true generalist civ, but with a higher warmongering tendency. Will be opportunistic in her aggressiveness, but will bail out when needed. Her main feature is her hostility against other warmongers (for personal reasons) and the fact that she will rarely be afraid of you (so she won't accept demands easily).

Victory Competitiveness : 6
Wonder Competitiveness : 5
Minor Civ Competitiveness : 4
Boldness : 8
Diplo Balance : 6
Warmonger Hate : 9
Denounce Willingness : 6
DoF Willingness : 6
Loyalty : 5
Neediness : 5
Forgiveness : 6
Meanness : 6
Chattiness : 5

Friendly : 4
Neutral : 5
Afraid : 2
Guarded : 5
Deceptive : 6
Hostile : 7
War : 7

Ignore : 5
Friendly/protective : 5
Bully : 5
Conquest : 5

Spoiler Casimir III :

Casimir III (Poland)

Another generalist civ, the most prominent feature of Casimir's personality is his tendency to be guarded and his very low forgiveness. Don't betray him, or you'll get an enemy for the rest of the game.

Victory Competitiveness : 6
Wonder Competitiveness : 6
Minor Civ Competitiveness : 5
Boldness : 5
Diplo Balance : 7
Warmonger Hate : 7
Denounce Willingness : 7
DoF Willingness : 5
Loyalty : 7
Neediness : 5
Forgiveness : 2
Meanness : 5
Chattiness : 3

Friendly : 7
Neutral : 6
Afraid : 5
Guarded : 8
Deceptive : 6
Hostile : 6
War : 4

Ignore : 5
Friendly/protective : 5
Bully : 5
Conquest : 5

Spoiler Catherine :

Catherine (Russia)

Another "sphere of influence" empire, with very high victory competitiveness and boldness, but a higher loyalty and forgiveness and a lower warmonger hate than usual. Catherine will always have an opinion on you, be it friendly or hostile, and she won't be deceptive in her intentions. Beware late game, since she will go at your throat if she sees you as a competitor. Also, a bit less likely to ignore what happens to nearby CS.

Victory Competitiveness : 9
Wonder Competitiveness : 5
Minor Civ Competitiveness : 6
Boldness : 8
Diplo Balance : 3
Warmonger Hate : 5
Denounce Willingness : 6
DoF Willingness : 6
Loyalty : 7
Neediness : 8
Forgiveness : 6
Meanness : 6
Chattiness : 7

Friendly : 6
Neutral : 3
Afraid : 3
Guarded : 5
Deceptive : 3
Hostile : 7
War : 7

Ignore : 3
Friendly/protective : 7
Bully : 6
Conquest : 6

Spoiler Darius I :

Darius I (Persia)

A conqueror with a more cautious attitude toward other major civ but a brazen willingness to absorb CS into his satrapies. He will prepare his attacks carefully and won't hesitate to ask for peace if he sees he won't gain much from them. A more neutral-stanced warmonger with overall more medium parameters.

Victory Competitiveness : 8
Wonder Competitiveness : 6
Minor Civ Competitiveness : 6
Boldness : 6
Diplo Balance : 6
Warmonger Hate : 4
Denounce Willingness : 6
DoF Willingness : 6
Loyalty : 5
Neediness : 5
Forgiveness : 5
Meanness : 6
Chattiness : 5

Friendly : 6
Neutral : 7
Afraid : 5
Guarded : 6
Deceptive : 4
Hostile : 5
War : 7

Ignore : 6
Friendly/protective : 5
Bully : 4
Conquest : 9

 

[tu_79]

There must be a rationale behind every flavour. So let me develop some of them.

Victory competitiveness.
Who should be the first to get angry when they see that they are going to lose? I'd say that civs that are not good in the late game should push for it before it is too late for them. If I were Korea, I would not be very scared of losing the game if I'm not leading in industrial era, since I might still make a comeback in the last turns. So civs with a good late game should have a low victory competitiveness, and vice versa.

Wonder competitiveness.
That should include both civs that love to build wonders, such as Egypt, and civs that love to capture cities containing wonders. Civs with unique improvements and good infrastructure (Babylon) should care less.

City State competitiveness
Does this mean a willingness to turn against a civ that hoards City state alliances?
They are vital for peaceful diplomatic civs (Austria) and important for any diplomatic civ. I think only bullies can afford to not care about civs with many Cs alliances, since they will bully them anyways.

Boldness.
Civs that depend on external factors should be cautious before commiting to war. Reversely, civs that have strong internal economies (China) don't need to think things twice.

Diplo balance.
This I think is the willingness to join forces against the leader of the pack in the early to mid game. So, it's for preventing runaways. That would be the option for civs that are generalist (Celts), thus don't have good chances to score an easy victory. On the other side, civs that specialise in one victory condition don't need to stop a runaway player that much.

Denounce willingness.
A few civs need to keep trade going (Morocco), so crossed denunciations are not good for their trade. On the other side, civs that thrive with fighting (Denmark) might want to provoke conflicts the sooner the better.

Loyalty.
This is completely for flavour. I'd love that most civs stay loyal, except for a few backstabbers (England, Byzantium)

Neediness/Forgiveness
Should not these two be the same? Also for flavour. Those that look more rightful in their portraits might be the less pragmatic ones.
Holding grudges is also bad for Netherlands.

Evilness
Well, civs with bonuses for capturing cities should be the greediest. Also, civs with a toolkit that allow for large empires could be greedier than the pack. Only civs that might win playing peacefully can afford to be nice.

 

[LifeOfBrian]

Amazing stuff, Recursive, hats off, truly wonderful stuff!

 

[Rean]

For neediness you could have it increase likeliness of requests for help, likeliness to make demands for unfriendly civs or likeliness to ask for joint wars.

Some attempts at leader flavours:

Spoiler Alexander :

War Approach: 9/10
Hostile Approach: 6/10
Deceptive Approach: 2/10
Guarded Approach: 2/10
Afraid Approach: 1/10
Friendly Approach: 4/10
Neutral Approach: 6/10

Just wants to conquer stuff, probably doesn't care too much about you otherwise unless you mess with his city-states.

Victory Competitiveness: 8/10
Wonder Competitiveness: 3/10
Minor Civ Competitiveness: 9/10
Boldness: 9/10
Diplo Balance: 7/10
Warmonger Hate: 2/10
Denounce Willingness: 7/10
DoF Willingness: 4/10
Loyalty: 7/10
Neediness: 3/10
Forgiveness: 6/10
Meanness: 5/10

Ignore City-State: 1/10
Friendly/Protect City-State: 8/10
Bully City-State: 2/10
Conquer City-State: 6/10

Either befriend CS or conquer them, no inbetween really.

Spoiler Ashurbanipal :

War Approach: 8/10
Hostile Approach: 6/10
Deceptive Approach: 6/10
Guarded Approach: 6/10
Afraid Approach: 2/10
Friendly Approach: 3/10
Neutral Approach: 6/10

Mostly interested in conquering and expanding his library, not particularly interested in friends.

Victory Competitiveness: 8/10
Wonder Competitiveness: 5/10
Minor Civ Competitiveness: 3/10
Boldness: 8/10
Diplo Balance: 7/10
Warmonger Hate: 5/10
Denounce Willingness: 6/10
DoF Willingness: 3/10
Loyalty: 2/10
Neediness: 4/10
Forgiveness: 5/10
Meanness: 8/10

Same as above really. Higher diplo balance mostly to get them to be mad at people with more advanced tech as that would be their ideal target.

Ignore City-State: 4/10
Friendly/Protect City-State: 2/10
Bully City-State: 7/10
Conquer City-State: 10/10

Conquering city states is always good to do as Assyria to get techs and fits his personality anyway.

Spoiler Attila :

War Approach: 7/10
Hostile Approach: 9/10
Deceptive Approach: 7/10
Guarded Approach: 2/10
Afraid Approach: 1/10
Friendly Approach: 2/10
Neutral Approach: 4/10

Just wants to conquer and bully people. Bit lower war/higher hostile to make him more likely to demand tribute over conquering.

Victory Competitiveness: 8/10
Wonder Competitiveness: 1/10
Minor Civ Competitiveness: 2/10
Boldness: 9/10
Diplo Balance: 1/10
Warmonger Hate: 3/10
Denounce Willingness: 7/10
DoF Willingness: 3/10
Loyalty: 3/10
Neediness: 5/10 (if you like the idea of making this increase demand requests turn it up to 9 or 10)
Forgiveness: 4/10
Meanness: 9/10

Ignore City-State: 2/10
Friendly/Protect City-State: 2/10
Bully City-State: 10/10
Conquer City-State: 6/10

Should be very eager to tribute anything they can.

Spoiler Bismarck :

War Approach: 5/10
Hostile Approach: 4/10
Deceptive Approach: 7/10
Guarded Approach: 7/10
Afraid Approach: 5/10
Friendly Approach: 8/10
Neutral Approach: 3/10

More of a sneaky plotting guy, trying to find what friends he can to undermine his enemies.

Victory Competitiveness: 9/10
Wonder Competitiveness: 6/10
Minor Civ Competitiveness: 6/10
Boldness: 5/10
Diplo Balance: 9/10
Warmonger Hate: 8/10
Denounce Willingness: 8/10
DoF Willingness: 7/10
Loyalty: 3/10
Neediness: 6/10
Forgiveness: 3/10
Meanness: 3/10

Should be very active diplomatically. As far as CS oriented civs go probably more willing to overlook CS competition if they need your friendship. Lower loyalty, should be willing to shift allegiances if neccesary.

Ignore City-State: 2/10
Friendly/Protect City-State: 9/10
Bully City-State: 2/10
Conquer City-State: 2/10

These are mostly done from a gameplay perspective, don't know too much about history.

Big fan of making leaders more distinct overall, would make the diplo game overall more interesting.