Competing VC's

[Dhoomstriker]

Well, I have decided to interpret the rule strictly (for now, at least until it is potentially changed) in that we can never alter the build queues and must always use them in a linear fashion (i.e. never swapping the current build item for a different build item, regardless of who started the current build item).

There will definitely be inefficiencies, but this interpretation will prevent people from accidentally breaking the rules.

So, while I am the player who raised the issue, I also fear that it will be too easy to forget the rule while playing if we do allow any form of build-queue swapping (i.e. if you get into the habit of queue-swapping, what's to force you to remember not to swap the first build item or to remember which build item was the first one when we have 10+ Cities in our empire). If everyone here feels that they consistently won't forget which build item was someone else's, even for large empires, then the rule can probably be revised. However, the rule of having a linear (unchangeable) build queue (my interpretation of the current rule, which is in disagreement with Habitus' interpretation of how it is currently written) adds an interesting twist that just makes the game a bit more challenging.


I started playing and Justinian has learned Alphabet, which is frustrating because he will take some of our cheap techs in trade but my hands are tied, since we are prevented from trading with him. However, once again, it's just another twist that makes the game more challenging.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

I end the turn after adjusting the capital's Grassland Forest to a Flood Plains square since all of the units' movement points have been used up for the turn. It appears that we are Hopeless.



Hatshepsut rubs that fact in our face with an early Stonehenge. We settle the 3rd City where mystyfly asked us to settle it.



Our fourth City has been settled. What you can't see from this screenshot is that we only make +2 Gold per turn at a 0% Science Rate. Ummm, yeah, something's going to have to be done about that situation before we settle City 5.



Frustratingly, we are not allowed to take Writing in trade.



Here is my solution: the Fast Worker Train of Doom! We have just connected our first Route... but, there are no Trade Routes yet! Alas, what shall we do?


The answer: dial up a local and see if they will trade with us. It appears that Writing has been making the rounds amongst the AIs.



What? You don't see it? Check out the Gold per Turn difference between the last screenshot and the current screenshot. Note that I have yet to leave the trading discussion area with Charlemagne.



We meet some other dude... the last dude to be met... so, yes, we are not isolated in this game.



We pull the same trick when the third City is ready to be added to our series of Trade-Route-connected Cities. +7 quickly changes to...



+9 Gold per Turn.



Here's the status of our empire. Thanks to Willem's Creative Trait, his borders expanded over top of the Corn Resource and he Farmed and Roaded it, thereby giving us Foreign Trade Route connections. I had not anticipated this fact, nor had I anticipated being able to build more than 1, maybe 2, Fast Workers during my turnset (we actually have 5 Fast Workers in total) so I went for Sailing, thinking that we'd likely need it in order to get Foreign Trade Routes. Oh well, it can't exactly hurt.

Now that the economy is order, we can probably finally plan to whip Delhi for the last blocking Settler (I did not whip in Delhi during the entire turnset due to the no-queue-shifting policy making it questionable to whip there).

Since we have Fast Workers, the Fast Worker that is N + N of Vijay could probably head to the Horse and start to Pasture it next turn.


We also won't need to spawn-bust the north until we Open Borders with Hammurabi, who has yet to learn Writing.

 

[shyuhe]

I thought the rule was clear that the queue shifting only applied to the first item in the queue that exists during the first inherited turn. So if you queue and put hammers in a settler and warrior, the next player only has to finish the one active in the queue at the start of his set. It'd be nice if people left items with hammers in the queue so that we can keep track, but I won't hold anyone to it.

Our economy looks like it's hurting. Time to plant some cottages I guess?

Habitus - you're up. I'll roll up the turn order for the second round tomorrow and post it.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

I thought the rule was clear that the queue shifting only applied to the first item in the queue that exists during the first inherited turn. So if you queue and put hammers in a settler and warrior, the next player only has to finish the one active in the queue at the start of his set. It'd be nice if people left items with hammers in the queue so that we can keep track, but I won't hold anyone to it.

Now he tells me.

Still, I think that the turnset worked out pretty well by spamming Workers instead of whipping a 5th Settler. Building a 5th Settler and settling it, particularly without any Trade Route connections, would have likely put us into a Strike situation.

I guess that we will just all have to be really dilligent in remembering which build item was in a City at the start of a turnset... not to hard now, but wait until after we have captured some AI Cities and you may have to write yourself little notes if you plan to use any queue-shifting.

That said, I played without really needing to do any queue-shifting.

Our economy looks like it's hurting. Time to plant some cottages I guess?

:facepalm:

Spoiler :

I did at least start to build 1 Cottage.

 

[mystyfly]

Yah, that's how I understood as well - just don't switch off the inherited build.

Think tech is pretty clear for now, sailing > IW. Will take some time. Sailing for TR of course but it kinda looks like we wouldn't need it... our empire almost looks like an AI's with all those roads OTOH neither ivory nor horse nor cow is improved/connected. Getting 4 more workers out is great, I think we don't need any more until we get IW. Let's focus on infra now.

Remember that you don't have to chop the ivory jungle in order to improve it (and get the +1 ) down at Vijay.

Tell me what you want, I still think it's better to have settled down there, our empire would be tiny and we'd lack resources both for our caps and for trade.

Looks like we have the 2 top AIs closeby, ham and just, should be interesting Especially since they're not exactly peaceful AIs...


I'm not sure how welcome discussion is here actually as everyone will just do what he considers best for his VC. Oh well.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

our empire almost looks like an AI's with all those roads

I agree that it looks that way. However, with the thinking that:
a) Multiple people suggested that we Road the Horse
AND
b) Not wanting to Road the Plains square that is NW + W of Bombay in the hopes that it will get a Forest to grow onto it

we thereby ended up needing +1 square Roaded towards the capital.


I also made "excess" Road on the Grassland Jungle square that is SW of the Horse. However, having that square Roaded saves a turn to return to the Horse... and we only JUST THIS TURN expanded our borders over top of the Horse, so it seemed like a good investment in a non-Pasturable-turn to build that Road so that on a Pasturable turn, we could get to the Horse quicker.

We also just finished Netting the non-Magical-Fish, which will be used to help get our future Great Person Farm focused in the right direction.


As for the Worker that is Roading the Desert to the N + N + N of Patal, I did not want to Road the Grassland square 1N of there, since doing so would reduce the chance of a Forest growing on said Grassland. Yes, it takes +1 turn to Road the Desert, but the chance for an extra Forest Chop is worth it in my mind.

Remember that you don't have to chop the ivory jungle in order to improve it (and get the +1 ) down at Vijay.

Perhaps not, but I was thinking that we would probably want to Farm the Grassland River square that is SE of Vijay as our next Worker action around Vijay. A Junglified Grassland Ivory still only provides 1 Food. After the Farm, the Cow should be within our Cultural Borders, so it should probably come before the Ivory, too, given that only 1 City (the capital) would benefit from the +1 Happiness of a connected Ivory.

Looks like we have the 2 top AIs closeby, ham and just, should be interesting Especially since they're not exactly peaceful AIs...

What's better, though, is that they are also next to each other (Their Close Borders Spark Tensions) and have each founded a Religion.

I'm actually more worried about Willem's City, which will probably cause us Cultural grief in the future.

I'm not sure how welcome discussion is here actually

Well, I appreciated it for my turnset, but others may not feel the same. However, I think that this game will be more fun with discussion, even if part of that discussion does not get used. Unlike a regular SG, it's hard to get disappointed with someone for doing the opposite of what you asked them to do, since doing so may, as you said previously, be done for that very reason: for the fact that it is the opposite of what you asked them to do!

 

[mystyfly]

... in which case I'd rather save me the time and keep my thoughts to myself

Well regarding the roads, my point is, all workers are distributed everywhere except where we have 2 resources to hook up and improve. Roading jungles isn't that hot with fast workers as they can move onto them and chop without losing a worker turn anyway. What I said about the jungle ivory was just to hook up the happiness and not to get a better tile. Ivory is a strategic resource and the AI gives a lot for it so we can consider trading our surplus ivory to far-away AIs.

I agree that it looks that way. However, with the thinking that:
a) Multiple people suggested that we Road the Horse
AND
b) Not wanting to Road the Plains square that is NW + W of Bombay in the hopes that it will get a Forest to grow onto it

I don't remember the numbers but this chance is so minimal on just a single tile...

Roading unimproved horses doesn't deliver anything

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Roading unimproved horses doesn't deliver anything

Yes it did! +1 to +2 Commerce per turn (from Trade Routes)!

Like I said, the last screenshot looks deceiving since our borders only JUST expanded over top of the Horse Resource.

I don't remember the numbers but this chance is so minimal on just a single tile...

True, the chance is small, but if you play with the Encourage Forest Growth/Regrowth Mindset, then you end up having a large number of small chances. Besides, the square in question has 2 Forest growth chances, since it has 2 neighbouring Forests. Speaking of which, a Forest grew on the 2nd last turn of play.


As for improving Ivory, I'd put a higher priority on improving Patal's Ivory than I would on Vijay's Ivory, since Patal won't have a better square to work until our Cultural Borders steal the Corn from Willem.

I don't recall seeing any Resources that the AIs were offering to trade to us anyway, so there probably isn't a high priority in getting 2 Ivory Resources connected.

 

[shyuhe]

Hmm. I think we're all on the same page that our economy sucks and we need to do something about that. So the question is, how do we fix our hole? I think some cottages near Delhi will help, as will IW for the gems. But IW is a long ways away... I think writing for scientists will be better, especially given the layout of our food specials.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Writing probably is a better choice over Iron Working as our next tech, since, once we are done our Granaries, our Cities won't have anything really useful to build (unless we want to go back to my suggestion of a possible Chariot rush).

At least Writing would give us somewhere to dump our Hammers (Libraries) as well as somewhere to park our excess Food (possibly whipping Libraries if we have WAY too much Food or minimally "parking Food" into Scientist Specialists once the Libraries have been completed).

... in which case I'd rather save me the time and keep my thoughts to myself

That approach is fine, but then only 1/5th of the turnsets would get your valuable input.

 

[mystyfly]

That approach is fine, but then only 1/5th of the turnsets would get your valuable input.

Bah, you flatter me Don't worry I guess I won't shut up just yet I was just thinking about (like you) that it's sometimes frustrating if you discuss something only to go by unnoticed (there were some past, "normal" SGs... not so nice).


Back to the game!

Agree with writing before IW for the reasons mentionned however I don't see that much use of cottages. They eat up worker turns and don't deliver anything but 1C yet. And we're trying to recover short-term. I'm fine with cottaging up Delhi for later buero and to avoid strike but I myself would rather see the other cities on specs duty for an eventual GP and instant beakers.

 

[shyuhe]

We have no civil service, so only one city other than Delhi can get farms. If we get sailing, maybe coastal lighthouses will be better than cottages...

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Well, Patal and Vijay could both technically get Farms... Patal's Cultural Borders will soon expand over top of 2 Jungle-free Grassland River squares.

Coincidentally, the remaining City (and the planned one by the Sheep and Ivory) are the Cities that cannot build Farms but CAN build Lighthouses.

Farms or Cottages on Grassland Riverside squares could work equally well in the short term. In the medium term, they could also work equally well if we used the Farmed Food to feed Scientist Specialists.

 

[mystyfly]

Habitus? You're up! That's gonna be the last TS of the round, afterwards we would require Cam_H's help once again for a new roll

 

[Habitus]

Should be able to play later today or tomorrow

 

[Cam_H]

lurker's comment:

afterwards we would require Cam_H's help once again for a new roll

Really? So soon???

Any changes to the way these should be managed now with the benefit of hindsight? For instance, no VCs handed out until 1AD, or possible duplicated/triplicated VCs? (Just thoughts). Maybe wait until we have to 'cross that bridge'?

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Ahh the "too big of a picture" big picture thoughts of someone who isn't intimately involved with the current game.

I like having the VCs from the start, since it won't feel like a team that breaks up halfway through the game... we start off knowing that we are rivals and can choose to play appropriately (i.e. deciding when to co-operate and when not to co-operate). Plus, some Victory Conditions require good planning before 1 AD rolls around.


As for stating who plays when... it's probably fair to either announce it after all players have played a round or else in advance of the prior round... that way, everyone will have an equally amount of knowledge as to where they will fit in the next round's turnset--either all learning after we have played the prior round or all learning before we have played the prior round.

 

[shyuhe]

I will roll up the players of the second round using a random number generator (that's what I did for the first set). I won't do it until after Habitus plays though, so that it's fair for everyone.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

I wonder... would mystyfly possibly be convinceable into playing in SGOTM 14?

 

[mystyfly]

Ah, you did that roll shyuhe? OK then. Agree with announcing after habitus played of course. I was just trying to see whether cam was still around

@Dhoomstriker: I would think rather not. Dunno whether you read my first post(s) on the SG I launched (which we abandonned, the pericles one) but SGOTMs were more or less what got me on hiatus for quite a while. I played along with some very good players (plus rrraskolnikov ), the level was very high. But the huge amount of posts and detailed discussion scared me off, it's nothing for me to simulate tons of versions to play 10 turns and talk for weeks about nothing but those few turns. It depends on the team a little of course but I think most teams are more or less like that (maybe not as extreme but still). So I don't really think I would enjoy it too much (I was involved in 3 or 4, with 2 different teams, but never really could) and I'm playing computer games to have fun.