Competing VC's

[Dhoomstriker]

I'm playing computer games to have fun.

Me, too, but we likely have different definitions of which parts are fun for us.

But the huge amount of posts and detailed discussion scared me off

Well, that's part of the reason why I'm asking. If enough players who felt that way were willing to stay on OSS/rejoin it/delurk, then I would be willing to step aside and go to a different team that does want to do those things.

I'd much rather do so if it meant allowing more people to participate in the SGOTM.

I played along with some very good players (plus rrraskolnikov )

Well, I'd probably let you keep her him. J/K, RRR has some good ideas... when he participates... which is what I'm driving at. If I can get more people to participate by stepping aside, I will gladly do so.

 

[mystyfly]

Haha well nothing against his play, I just felt like stabbing a little because I know he(!) doesn't mind But yeah, his activity is worse than sin(x)

Either I misunderstood you or you're misunderstanding me. I wasn't referring to you regarding "too much discussion", anything in this SG is way off from what we had at times during SGOTM (that's, IIRC, why bbp went on hiatus as well some time). It's not either that I don't like discussion, on the contrary... I just had, like, an overdose... like you eat something you like very much until you don't like it anymore With the competitiveness of the SGOTM format there is bound to be much discussion everywhere and people are tense, arguing about nothing and so on... that's what I meant by "I just want to have fun", less tension, more playing, more happy

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Either I misunderstood you or you're misunderstanding me. I wasn't referring to you regarding "too much discussion", anything in this SG is way off from what we had at times during SGOTM (that's, IIRC, why bbp went on hiatus as well some time).

Well, I'm certainly not the only one who can have a hearty discussion, but I am definitely willing and able to have a detailed discussion when many others would prefer not to.

I did not feel that you were directing any comments at me, but instead, I was proactively offering people a way to reduce discussions (by me moving on) if it meant that I could be replaced by someone who was willing to participate more (i.e. delurk, in your case).

"I just want to have fun", less tension, more playing, more happy

Well, this current SG should offer that much, or such is the hope. Few people are really going to get mad at you for messing up your own victory condition's chances of winning.

Nothing says that you can't participate in the SGOTM by leading a team of newbs... skip the discussions and make it your personal challenge to "do what you can to salvage the situation" whenever your turnset arrives.

Since you'll be playing for fun instead of to win, it won't matter where you place in the final results' table.

 

[mystyfly]

I did not feel that you were directing any comments at me, but instead, I was proactively offering people a way to reduce discussions (by me moving on) if it meant that I could be replaced by someone who was willing to participate more (i.e. delurk, in your case).

That's what I meant, that you would "go away" p) in order to reduce discussion to make others happy, in other words that you feel you are somehow responsible for other's miscomfort or something. Which is not the case with me, I enjoy our talks though few seem to want to join in

I always had fun playing SGs (it's not my first with some here ) and I prefer to stick to that instead of risk getting messed up and disappearing again.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

(it's not my first with some here )

One look at your signature makes that fact readily apparent.

and I prefer to stick to that instead of risk getting messed up and disappearing again.

Do you really think that you can escape Sid's clutches so easily? You're back here now, aren't you? They all come back, I tell you, they just keep coming back for more...


As for the game... let's say that we manage to expand to the Sheep + Ivory location and form a block. What would become our medium term goals?

Seeing as how we can't trade for techs, is there much benefit in Lightbulbing techs or should we be settling Great People? It seems to me that the biggest value from the Philosophy Lightbulbing tactic is the ability to get a ton of techs in trade... I would imagine that this dynamic changes when you can't trade for techs.

When do we consider a war to be feasible? We do have Ivory... should we push for a war using War Elephants + Cats? We wouldn't need Civil Service + Machinery, but we would need to self-tech both Construction and Horseback Riding. I think that shyuhe would be in support of such a plan.

Do we consider going after The Great Library or should we give up on it already as a lost cause? No Marble, no trade value out of Aesthetics...

 

[mystyfly]

Yah, didn't update that sig in ages... there would be a couple more...

Seeing as how we can't trade for techs, is there much benefit in Lightbulbing techs or should we be settling Great People? It seems to me that the biggest value from the Philosophy Lightbulbing tactic is the ability to get a ton of techs in trade... I would imagine that this dynamic changes when you can't trade for techs.

IMO, what to do with GP depends a lot on VC and will be decided by the active player anyway.

When do we consider a war to be feasible? We do have Ivory... should we push for a war using War Elephants + Cats? We wouldn't need Civil Service + Machinery, but we would need to self-tech both Construction and Horseback Riding. I think that shyuhe would be in support of such a plan.

Generally: When we have a window of opportunity. Surely: Not before we settled our cities and have some infra in place. Definitely: Not yet.

Do we consider going after The Great Library or should we give up on it already as a lost cause? No Marble, no trade value out of Aesthetics...

and you forgot: No beakers to spend on lit route in a reasonable amount of TSs. We'll be busy stabilizing our empire/eco, we can't spend beakers on non-eco techs and hammers on non-infra builds (like wonders or units).

 

[Habitus]

So I played my Turnset. Was pretty uneventful, thou i forgot we were playing with events. If i had know i would of advised against roading the desert as an event with unimproved sersert gives us a research boost and is more likely than the forest respawning on the tiles we avoided.

As soon as i hit enter on first turn we had Willem covert to Hindu.

I converted the farms in the capitol to cottages as we need the commerce to fund expanding + research, i've improved the horses, cows and grassland hill at Bombay and I'm currently got it set up like this



This will gives us exactly 2 Hammers overflow, putting the lighthouse at 29/60 for a max overflow 2 PoP whip

T74 Patliputra reclaimed the corn that Willem had kindly roaded and farmed for us

T77 Charle converted to Hindu, with nearly all our neighbours now Hindu it is looking the best religion to convert to once we can.

Also I was able to Open Borders with Willem this turn, he also build The Great Wall.



With Justinian settling a city near Bombay he is our only non-Hindu border so the scouting warriors has been checking out his lands




Now once writing is in we have a choice, Maths (which Willem is currently researching) for heading to Construction, Alphabet for Spies + Building Research, or Ironworking to start clearing the Gems to get the much needed Commerce.

I've sent a warrior towards Willem land to check it out, Dehli should finish a Settler for on the settle on Cows on the same turn as Writing comes in letting it grow to Pop 6 while building a Library. Settling the Tundra Horses + Fish can wait as after Cows settle we really need need the Economy to settle down.


I'll try and take more SS next turn set as i kept forgetting this time

*edit*

Both Maths and Alphabet of course also let us get to currency for econ

*edit 2*

Just noticed that working the Plains Hill + Fish over the Forest + Cows should give us the same Hammers but an extra commerce

 

[shyuhe]

Things look good. A few more turns to writing, at which point we'll actually have an economy again Do we want to go for IW after writing for the gems? Or do we want to go alpha --> currency to open up research builds? I'm not sure which order is better for long-term commerce, as we're kind of slow on research right now.

Here's what I rolled for the second set:

Habitus
rolo
shyuhe
Dhoom
mysty

Looks like you get a double set Habitus

edit: We could consider going Hindu and pick up IW so that we can protect ourselves against Justinian. It should ease our tensions with our other neighbors. Plus, I think Justinian hates Hatty more and I think they share > 8 land tiles.

 

[mystyfly]

By the looks of our 2 northernmost fat workers we must have plenty of 'em

I'm not sure I really like that non-binary research. It's costing us 1C everywhere but in delhi.

Well our workers seem to be pretty much in control now so we can build libraries everywhere or start rax to grow.

Another option for bombay is to complete the warrior as close to completition as possible and then whip it for some instant cash. I did this a couple of times lately, that may really help, especially with -resources coming in soon.

Looks like religious oddballs hatty and just are the only worst enemies of any civs. Is there a reason not to OB hammurabi? He should be able to convert our cities, shouldn't he?

 

[Habitus]

He doesn't have Writing yet, of hadn't the last time i checked. I usually do Binary Research to deal with rounding. Honestly i'm not sure why i didn't on my turn set.

Justinian has long borders with both Hammy and Hatty. We share around 3 tiles, iirc 8 is needed for us to become a Land Target.

 

[Mitchum]

This looks to be a tough game with no tech trading and "teammates" with competing strategies / incentives. I'd be interested to know how many times the flood plain farms get cottaged over and vice versa...

Good luck!!

 

[shyuhe]

I think we'll all be playing on the same page for another few more sets. Our economy is hurting too much for people to be trying for their own VC.

 

[Habitus]

Going to play the next turnset tomorrow, probably going to go Alpha -> Currency, building research will get us to techs quicker plus the extra trade route from over 6 Cities will be comparable to the 2 gems for commerce.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

an event with unimproved sersert gives us a research boost

Good to know for the future, thanks.

Just noticed that working the Plains Hill + Fish over the Forest + Cows should give us the same Hammers but an extra commerce

Also note that working both the Fish and the Cow would have given a bit more Food, for helping to regrow faster, so as to more quickly regain the 1 out of the 2 whipped people that would not have been unhappy from whipping, while also keeping the Lighthouse as a 2-pop whip.

Overall, it sounds like it was a nice turnset! Did we get a Sheep + Ivory City settled?
EDIT: From the mini-map, it appears that the answer to my question is "yes."

 

[Dhoomstriker]

I'm not sure I really like that non-binary research. It's costing us 1C everywhere but in delhi.

Perhaps he didn't really use non-binary research? I used binary research but for my last screenshot, I moved the Science Slider to a balanced income just to demonstrate whether or not the current tech (Sailing) needed more than 15 turns to complete at a balanced research rate.

Well our workers seem to be pretty much in control now

Which to me implies that we have the Worker turns to spare on cutting Jungle and Mining Gems (and Mining any Iron, should we have any), so I think that I'd aim to go for Iron Working after Writing in this no-trading game.

In addition, Gem = +1 Happiness in every City, which is more valuable than eventually getting +1 Trade Route in every City at this low-Happiness-stage of the game, in my opinion. Possibly +2 Happiness in every City if we can trade the excess Gem for another Happiness Resource.

Another option for bombay is to complete the warrior as close to completition as possible and then whip it for some instant cash.

This approach ONLY works if you are using BUG + BULL. If you aren't using BULL, then the excess overflow Hammers will disappear POOF into thin air!

I guess that this fact also implicitly answers my question on whether or not we can use BULL... mystyfly already did so!

Looks like religious oddballs hatty and just are the only worst enemies of any civs. Is there a reason not to OB hammurabi?

Yes, there is a potential reason not to Open Borders with Hammurabi: if we Open Borders with him, he will move him Bowman from the northern spawn-busting location, meaning that we may get Barbs spawning up there if we don't spawn-bust the area ourselves. Said Barbs could even include Barb Galleys.

He should be able to convert our cities, shouldn't he?

Which might be a far more important reason than saving on the usage of a single spawn-busting unit... so, it might be worth Opening Borders with Hammurabi if we can get a spawn-buster to the north.

We could consider going Hindu

Doing so does seem to be a good choice diplomatically.

I'd be interested to know how many times the flood plain farms get cottaged over and vice versa...

Can we please clarify the ruling on this issue once and for all? Is it "no paving over Villages and Towns" or is it simply "no paving over Towns"?

Good luck!!

Thanks! They'll I'll need it!

 

[shyuhe]

We cannot pave over towns. I'll update the rules to reflect it.

I think alpha is stronger than IW here because it lets us build research. The two gems are worth 16 coins, which we can get if we build research in our cities. After granaries and libraries, our cities aren't going to have much to build.

If we're going to try warring with swords/axes, then IW will be better. But Hammy is tough with bowmen and Willem is creative (ugh). That leaves Justinian but I don't think he'll be easy to take down at this point.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Also, when do we think that we should settle the eastern on-the-cow Fish City and the northern Fish + Horse City?

Should we start on building Settlers during the current turnset or wait a while?


It wouldn't hurt to plan to go to war with Swords against Justinian. As the game progresses, it will get harder and harder to war successfully without an early land advantage, since we're going to continually be behind in the tech race.

Also, we'll get more of a bonus Flask boost for researching Iron Working as more AIs will know it than AI knows Alphabet... in a non-tech-trading game, every little advantage (researching techs that many AIs already know) will help out.

 

[mystyfly]

Going to play the next turnset tomorrow, probably going to go Alpha -> Currency, building research will get us to techs quicker plus the extra trade route from over 6 Cities will be comparable to the 2 gems for commerce.

There were a few arguments for either alpha or IW. IMO IW is clearly better. I may add that it takes a lot less time to research compared to alpha + currency. It's all instant commerce vs later commerce. Plus I expect to find iron so we get a production boost. Plus we can get other cities more productive as well.

As to builds, building research is a valid argument but since no city except delhi has MP (IIRC from checking save yesterday) I don't think we'll run out of builds just yet, with libraries and rax to build as well (rax add power but don't cost upkeep, we don't want to be attacked so soon). Alpha > currency means sitting shivering in the dark building research and hoping that nobody notices that only half our cities are defended, and they're defended by warriors

This approach ONLY works if you are using BUG + BULL. If you aren't using BULL, then the excess overflow Hammers will disappear POOF into thin air!

I guess that this fact also implicitly answers my question on whether or not we can use BULL... mystyfly already did so!

Uhmm is that so? Now you mention it I kinda remember something in that regards from when the last patch came out. Yeah I did it occasionally but only in offline games Which I usually play with buffy I think, which you can't in a game that was launched with no mod.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Uhmm is that so? Now you mention it I kinda remember something in that regards from when the last patch came out. Yeah I did it occasionally but only in offline games Which I usually play with buffy I think, which you can't in a game that was launched with no mod.

Yes, the debate came up in the Strategy & Tips Forum because the claim was that the "U" in BUG and BULL stood for "Unaltered," but some of us had seen excess overflow Hammers converted into Gold while others weren't sure what happened.

I checked into it and sure enough, any excess overflow Hammers either disappear or, with BUG + BULL, turn into Gold on a 1-to-1 basis for base Hammers (not final Hammers, where by final Hammers I mean the Hammers received after production multipliers are applied, such as a production modifier for having Stone when building a City Wall).

BUFFY does not use BULL so you don't get Gold when using BUFFY.

What's not clear is whether you are using BUG + BULL or not. BULL really just means replacing the CvGameCoreDLL.dll file with a new version of the file. BULL, however, includes fixes from an unofficial patch, and that "crediting of excess overflow Hammers as Gold" was one of the fixes.

Other functionality from BULL involves seeing the Hidden Modifiers from the SHAM Mod, i.e. "Developing Nations should help each other to catch up" and "A First Impression is a Lasting One." If you see those modifiers on your F4 -> GLANCE screen, then you're using BULL.

I think that the 3.19 patch completely removed excess Hammer overflow turning into Gold. They were trying to change it from "final Hammers turning into Gold" and instead turn it into "base Hammers turning into Gold," but they messed up the fix and made it so that the excess overflow Hammers simply disappear. At least one of the developers later admitted their error but they made no efforts to correct it.


I'm still not positive that using BUG + BULL won't mess up the saved game for other people, but if it won't, then certainly whipping Warriors, particularly when they have 14/15 Hammers already invested in them (and even Chopping into them immediately after whipping but before ending the turn) is a possible way (although potentially considered to be exploitish since it's not possible in regulr 3.19 BtS) to make Gold out of Hammers pre-Wealth (and to make Gold out of Forest Chops, since you can't do so using the Wealth build).

However, as exploitish as it might feel, it's not nearly as good as Chopping into a Wonder for Failure Gold if you are either Industrious or have the Wonder's relevant bonus Resource.

Obviously, if you don't have BUG + BULL, don't even consider this tactic, as it would just mean throwing away Hammers.

 

[mystyfly]

Yeah, now I may remember

Well I do have those diplo messages at least the first impression one for sure.

As to which mod I use; I think buffy was the HoF merge by the BUG team, I think I'm using this for offline games. For some reason I can't log on to the HoF website so I can't check. For online games I use the CA install of BUG (and that's it). Is that now a problem? Or, another question: Who is using a completeley unmodded version of the game anyway?