Competing VC's

[shyuhe]

I'd prefer alphabet over math as it will get us to currency faster. I don't see what good math does for us now (other than the beaker discount for currency) since we don't really need chops.

I think we will have a second GS by the time an academy would be worth more than a settled GS.

 

[r_rolo1]

Math and Alpha are more or less the same in terms of teching time ATM and true, we would get more mileage out of Alpha in the short run. OFC the warmonger among us will surely prefer to see cats avaliable ASAP ( I tend to agree, since we have a Justinian with hands full bordering us :/ )

Turnsets are still 15 turns, right ?

 

[Habitus]

Yup 15 turns Tech Maths, Bulb Alpha, super speed tech Currency is a possible plan

 

[r_rolo1]

Yup, it is possible to do that ... but I wonder if a fast Alpha would be worth creaming a GS :/

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Alpha vs Math

Spoiler :

I'd prefer alphabet over math as it will get us to currency faster.

What are you talking about?
Alphabet leads to Currency
Math leads to Currency

Which one is faster to Currency?
The cheaper tech.

Which tech is cheaper to research?
Math

How will Alphabet get us to Currency faster?


Spies are useless until later, after we have Courthouses.

In addition, Math opens up Construction and Calendar. We could use the extra Happiness from our Spice (Calendar) and we could use Construction (War Elephants with Horseback Riding and Cats) if we plan any sort of a war before Rifling.

Basically, Math gives us flexibility and options and gets us to Currency faster.

Alphabet is slower and gains us Spy units that have no practical use except for "being caught" due to our low Espionage values.

What to do with the Great Scientist

Spoiler :

I think we will have a second GS by the time an academy would be worth more than a settled GS.

That's the wrong argument to make.

An Academy first and settling second will net us more Science overall than will settling the Great Scientist first and an Academy second, since we are generally using Binary Science (well, most of us are).

The only real difference comes into play as to whether or not you care about the medium term or only the short term. In the long term, both are equal, since, as soon as you get the 2nd Great Scientist, then you'll have both 1 Academy and 1 settled Great Scientist (unless someone choses to do something differently, but for comparison's sake, the two paths become "equal" in the long run once the 2nd Great Scientists arrives).

So, refer to my earlier message, which tells you what you should do based on your assigned Victory Condition. The only reason to do the opposite of your assigned Victory Condition is if you want to trick everyone else into thinking that your Victory Condition is different from what it is... which might be worth doing, but it might also backfire as you might just be helping someone else to win sooner.

If you listen to anyone's suggestion on what to do with the Great Scientist, then you'll just be influenced by their Victory Condition. For example, if someone is telling you what to do (regardless of whether it is to settle him, make an Academy, or lightbulb him), they only have THEIR OWN BEST INTERESTS AT HEART, not your own.

If you go by my linked chart, though, which is unbiased, then you'll at least be able pick a choice that matches your Victory Condition. Either that or else intentionally do the opposite, so as to trick us all as to what your Victory Condition really is.

 

[r_rolo1]

Well, Dhoom, your use of the GS -> VC correlation only looks at the first level of things and forget the beneficial side effects of both options. Say, conquest it is highly unlikely that we can win via conquest before a academy surpasses a settled GS .... or for example culture for the oposite example ( if we ever get Sistine and Music, that is ... i really pity the culture VC player ).

Anyway, my gut feeling is that a academy in the cap will probably be for the better : our happy cap is rising and those cottages will sooner or later give us beakers , so a academy will surely not take long to give us more than 6 beakers.

On the Math/ Alpha issue : I'm really 50/50 on this. On the long run Math definitely wins, but I'm not sure if a short run acess to research build would not overpower that ...

 

[Dhoomstriker]

From an unbiased point, for a Cultural game (my specialty Victory Condition), here's what I do with Great Scientists:
Get one Academy for my Cottaged Bureaucracy capital
Get 0 more Great Scientists

Academy = 4 Culture
Great Scientist with Sistine = 2 Culture

So, I'm not really sure how settling is better for a Cultural game, which is why I listed Academy for a Cultural Victory condition in my chart.


Again, from an unbiased standpoint, in general Civ-based terms: Building Research in BtS is relatively rubbish, since it doesn't benefit from Libraries, Academies, Monasteries, etc. Building Wealth is worthwhile, since it allows us to use our Science-multiplying buildings on our Commerce. Even the most short-term of Victory Conditions is better building Wealth.

We'll need Math shortly anyway (Calendar at a minimum, possibly Construction depending upon your Victory Condition--regardless, someone will find a reason to research this tech), but we can delay learning Alphabet for a long time. So, we can dump our Flasks into Alphabet so that we can get a few Flasks from building Research. However, Flasks from Research in the short period of time before we learn Wealth won't make up for the invested cost of the otherwise useless Alphabet tech. The choice is therefore clear: Alphabet wastes our Flasks.

 

[r_rolo1]

Ok, I'm sold to maths ... not that we will tech it under my set

Loading Civ IV now ... hopefully will post a report in a hour or 2.

 

[r_rolo1]

Ok, just played ... and to be honest the set went far better than I was expecting.

Not that it started well. Charly started with a demand ... that alone was nothing, but soon he and hatty forced me to decide between both ( I sided with him, being her a pushover ... as you'll see later, I made a wise choice:

Spoiler :

Anyway, we got our GS and I decided to make a academy out of it

Spoiler :

I'll not try to justify my decision here since I already did it in the previous posts. Anyway, a small point to the sorry state of our finances

In between, i noticed that Charly had a surplus of fur. Trade ensued

Spoiler :

That and this ...

Spoiler :

... allowed us to get our happy cap to grow 2 , a really nice margin . And we have iron:

Spoiler :

In between this 2 pics Hammurabi adopted HR as civic.

SB demands cut deals with Justinian. As at the time I didn't knew if Justinian was after us or not, but even then it was better to not piss a neighbour to please a guy that is far away.

Spoiler :

By this time we aldready had denied 2 demands from hatty related with Charly ( in 2 consecutive turns ... the RNG sometimes is evil ).

Hammurabi finishes ToA. Some turns later Willem finishes the mids and adopts Rep as well:

Spoiler :

As i hinted above, we were not the target of the buildup of Justinian:

Spoiler :

And this only confirms the tried and tested diplo rule of Civ IV : never side with the weak ( in here Hatty ). BTW, notice that Charly is also with hands full ... I fully expect that Hatty is the target, but keep a eye.

Getting back to domestic issues, the fur + gems happiness + the ability to chop jungle made wonders for our tech output and we reached maths far earlier than I expected:

Spoiler :

I slotted Currency, as discussed previously.

In between Justinian asked for our help to war Hatty. In hindsight I maybe should had acepted it, but I felt that our army was ( and is ) too weak for warring now.

Also earlier that I expected before the start of the set, our second GS:

Spoiler :

I took it to the cap, but haven't used it ( it is unmoved there in the save turn ... regardless of how I feel or not about the usage of the guy, I think that it would have been not proper to use it before the end of the set )

And with this I ended my set. Some intel :

Spoiler :

I guess the main discussion is on what to do with the current GS and the next one that is due to appear in the next set if the specs are not unhired.

>>Save here<<​

 

[Dhoomstriker]

I guess the main discussion is on what to do with the current GS and the next one that is due to appear in the next set if the specs are not unhired.

Well, it seems that if there were a decision between Settling and building a second Academy, it is clear which choice you support (the choice with only one Academy, since you can't build a second Acadmy when a Great Scientist is placed in a City that contains an Academy).

I still don't see how Lightbulbing a tech like Alphabet helps anyone (every Victory Condition needs multiple techs to be able to win and Lightbulbing without trading is too short-sighted to help anyone).


The realistic choices are probably between:
a) Settling in the capital
b) Building an Academy in a second City (Gem City?)
c) Saving for a Golden Age, although with a Spiritual Civ, this usage is very questionable
d) Saving to Lightbulb Philosophy, which might actually be a useful tech to Lightbulb, since it's the first tech where you get the "full value" out of the Great Scientist's Lightbulbing ability, and by being the first to Philosophy, we MIGHT actually be able to get a Liberalism monopoly due to the AIs avoiding Philosophy once Taoism is taken

Of course, if a 3rd Great Scientist is coming soon, then possibility d) can be saved for that Great Scientist, if we even choose d) at all, leaving it between choices a), b), and c) for the 2nd Great Scientist.


I will be VERY interested to find out which tech shyuhe will choose to research after research on Currency is completed.

 

[r_rolo1]

To be honest, I would prefer a second academy, most likely in the gems city ... but i let the GS in the cap for the next player to settle if he wants to.

For reference, if the MM continues the same, we will get a third GS from Bombay in 12 turns, in the next turnset.

 

[mystyfly]

I don't have much to say, tech is clear. I agree with second academy as bulbing doesn't make that much sense here.

There is another -deal available with willem and free diplo from justinian.

And I really think we have way too many cottages.

Priority from builds now is to get some units out and another settler for the north. Afterwards, we should have currency and build wealth to really take off with our 2 academy-cottagewhore-cities.

 

[shyuhe]

Since we went math, we should go currency next. I think a settled GS in our capital will be better than an academy in gems for the short-term. Long-term, the academy wins out of course.

Since we're expecting a third GS in 12 turns, why not settle this one and build an academy with GS #3? This will give us time to stockpile some cash in expectation of getting another academy built (for 100% science). Our economy will be fine once we pick up currency.

For techs after currency (not sure if it will complete in my set), I'm thinking med/poly for monarchy. Monarchy is worth +1 with HR and +1 with wine.

Roster duty:
-----------
Habitus (played)
rolo (played)
shyuhe (UP)
Dhoom (on deck)
mysty

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Since we're expecting a third GS in 12 turns, why not settle this one and build an academy with GS #3? This will give us time to stockpile some cash in expectation of getting another academy built (for 100% science). Our economy will be fine once we pick up currency.

Well, it depends upon whether or not we will want to Lightbulb Philosophy.

Every Victory Condition benefits from Liberalism, although whoever gets to "pop" Liberalism obviously wins out the most out of us, since that person will get to choose the free tech. At present, that could be anyone, since we don't know the playing order for the future.

If we want to Lightbulb Philosophy to help secure Liberalism, then I'd assume that our 3rd Great Scientist could get used for this task.

If the plan truly is to build Wealth while we use our Science Multipliers (Libraries and Academies) in our Cottaged capital and Gem City to try and propel our Science, then we'd probably be best making the 2nd Academy now.


Of course, if you don't want to be the first to Liberalism, then we don't really need to Lightbulb Philosophy.

 

[shyuhe]

We're not likely to be running a religion anytime soon because of our neighbors, so pacifism has very limited use. That means philosophy's only real use (as a bulb tech) is to discourage the other AI from getting philosophy and liberalism. I don't think that's a really strong reason for bulbing philosophy since a settled GS here will strengthen our economy more than pushing out the window for grabbing liberalism.

 

[mystyfly]

I think I agree with shyuhe, settling the GS wins over second academy just yet because we get that GS in 12t anyway and complete that academy then.

Reason why I said bulbing doesn't make much sense is mostly because one can usually get a lot of techs in trade which we can't in this game obviously so most of the usefulness is lost imo.

I'm not sure we can continue assuming "everyone wants this" all the time as there are so many choices and paths/gameplans starting to divert now. I don't doubt anyone would say no to a free tech but I don't think everyone would like to get there the same way, for example the culuture player might want some more wonder-unlocking techs first, conquest/domination player would go down the guilds route maybe... Space/diplo would rather get a few academies down while a culture player might really favour bulbing philo not because it's on the way to liberalism but to get a shot at AWat and found a religion...

 

[Dhoomstriker]

I think I agree with shyuhe, settling the GS wins over second academy just yet because we get that GS in 12t anyway and complete that academy then.

I was not disputing this point and I agree with it, if we do not want to Lightbulb Philosophy.

I was simply suggesting that if we think that Lightbulbing Philosophy is what we want to do and that if we think that building Wealth for a while is the other thing that we want to do, then I'd suggest using the 2nd Great Scientist on the 2nd Academy over settling, since it wouldn't take long (once we started building Wealth) for the Academy to have a greater effect, and if we were to Lightbulb Philosophy, then we'd only have the chance to build an Academy or not with 1 Great Scientist.

 

[shyuhe]

I agree with mysty's point. Now that we have a settled empire and we will soon have a stable economy (with currency), I think the players' game plans will start to diverge greatly. It'll be amusing to see how much our empire's goals change from one set to another.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

So, shyuhe, do you have any thoughts on when you might be able to find time to play your turnset?

 

[shyuhe]

Tomorrow. Sorry for holding the game up.