Competing VC's

[shyuhe]

Mmm. I'm on a roll with my SG's. Let's just say, we have some minor problems now...

The set starts well enough. I send the GS down to gems for an academy as the culture will help too. Currency comes in.

And then I realize that Charlie has his hands full... and I was unlucky (or rather the previous player was):

We get this too:

I revolt since Justinian is already at war and Hatty is a non-factor.

I wish I could take this trade:

This is useless:

We get through monarchy:

And give in to more demands:

I thought I had the front under control until I see this:

The troops are in gems. The corn/ivory is a goner next turn

On the upside, we have a GG sitting in gems - I think we should send him to Bombay to settle to fight back against Charlie. There is a GS near Delhi as well - I didn't want to use more than one in my set since it wouldn't be fair so he's sitting around. I believe philo is still open.

Relations:

Techs aren't too bad considering our no-trading policy:

Roster duty:
-----------
Habitus (played)
rolo (played)
shyuhe (played)
Dhoom (UP)
mysty (on deck)

Sorry to give you a messy save Dhoom. I left a few cities on wealth so that you'll have more flexibility in your builds.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Sorry to give you a messy save Dhoom.

Maybe I'm just blind but I don't see an attached saved game.


Whoa, yeah, nice war that you left for me there (I'm only going by the screenshots at this point). Hmmm, so should we go for Construction next? The fact that we went for Code of Laws makes me think that we were going for Civil Service but is chasing after Bureaucracy a wise move when we're about to lose a chunk of our empire?


Oh yeah, does "bribing in a war ally" count as trading, particularly when we are fighting a DEFENSIVE war?

The corn/ivory is a goner next turn

(2c) you can NEVER give up a city and must defy any UN/AP resolutions that try to change ownership of cities you control;

Also, does the "try not to lose Cities" rule apply here or am I free to choose to abandon the City in hopes of living to fight again another day?

Like, do I have to use every single unit to defend the City? Am I allowed to run away with some units or all of the units in the face of inpending doom?

 

[shyuhe]

save attached.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

I suppose that I'll remain in Hinduism since it is the Religion of every other AI, EXCEPT for Hatty and Justinian, who are Judaism and Buddhism founders and are at war with each other AND Sitting Bull, who is the Confucian founder but is relatively far away from us. Actually, this situation sounds familiar, so someone probably already described it.


It doesn't look like any AI would take a bribe from us anyway, even if we were to bend the rules to allow an AI to be bribed into a war when we were about to get clobbered.


When the game loads up, BUG tells me that Charlemagne will offer Peace. However, he seems to be unwilling to talk. I don't know what that's all about.


I plan to join the Great General to some units, to give them better odds. If I can promote a few Axemen up the Combat line, then they may be able to take out some enemy Cats. Once the AI Siege units are gone, then we'll be on more equal footing.


Also, we have a Great Scientist (as was stated) and will spawn a second one during this turnset (unless I somehow manage to lose our capital--although AIs tend to be pretty singularly focused in their attacks so I can probably throw everything that we've got at our Ivory City). So, would people be cool with:
a) One Great Scientist Lightbulbs Philosophy if Taoism has not been founded by the time that Philosophy can be Lightbulbed (giving us a good shot at being the first to Liberalism)
b) The other Great Scientist sits down in the capital

The only other reasonable option that I see would be to build a third Academy, if someone really wanted to push for it. I'm not a big fan of Lightbulbing when you can't trade, but I'll make the exception for Philosophy due to the strong chance of one of us getting to pick a free tech from Liberlism and what with us having already researched Fishing (i.e. we can't lose out terribly with a poor Liberalism choice--such as Fishing--even if the chosen tech doesn't match with our preferred goals). However, I don't really see another non-Coastal Commerce City, so where I would build this potential Acadmy is a mystery to me.

Thus, if you want a 3rd Academy (we have one in the capital and one in Gem City), then please specify where it should be built.

 

[mystyfly]

Aren't we supposed to move the units on the last, 15th turn?

Well in this case it's fortunate as our workers can road that tile so we can move our gems-city units to ivory city in 2t. Then charly will bombard, giving us at least one more turn to gather defences. We can also whip the sword. As ivory city is on a hill I'd rather not let it be captured and recapture it, many more losses imo.

Not sure abt GG. If we had archery twitch and a whipped archer, then a GG-drill-archer would kick ass, but a combat axe?? Takes out way too few units without first strikes. As it is, if we tech archery now (1t) it takes another turn to whip an archer, then we can promote him. That means it needs to take charly 2 turns to bombard. How long would it take him to put them to approx. 0%?

It would be so cool if we could get willem/ham to close borders with charly

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Aren't we supposed to move the units on the last, 15th turn?

As you say, in this case, it looks like the Workers and Military Units still have movement points, so we should be good.

Then charly will bombard, giving us at least one more turn to gather defences. We can also whip the sword.

If I were allowed to queue-shift to build and whip a Wall, we could probably get 3 turns, but that's cheating, so I guess a whipped Sword and then an Archer will have to do.

Not sure abt GG. If we had archery twink and a whipped archer, then a GG-drill-archer would kick ass, but a combat axe??

Well, Combat Axes would be stationed inside of the Ivory City and would attack outwards towards the enemy stack. The hope would be that as many Catapults as possible would defend.

Honestly, at this point, I'd rather use the Great General's experience points on units rather than settling him somewhere and having a great chance to lose our City. That's not a good tradeoff.

Combat Axes were the best that I could think of. We should be able to get 2 Spears there, which will be more than enough, even after being wounded by Cats, to fend off a few enemy Chariots.

A whipped Swordsman can at least stand a chance to fight off one Cat.

But, if we let a stack of Cats use Collateral Damage on us, we're in trouble no matter what kind of units we have. Out of our existing units, Combat-promoted Axemen would have the best odds of being able to be paired-up against enemy Cats ON OFFENSE and to come out alive.


Sure, defending Combat Axes wouldn't be much to brag about, but their main purpose would be to attack the Cats before the Cats attack us.

Takes out way too few units without first strikes. As it is, if we tech archery now (1t) it takes another turn to whip an archer, then we can promote him. That means it needs to take charly 2 turns to bombard. How long would it take him to put them to approx. 0%?

The problem with relying on a single Archer is that it won't have a Fortification bonus. It won't be much good after a couple of Cat attacks anyway.

The key is to attack first when siege initiative is involved, and given the units that we have access to, Combat-promoted Axemen seem to be the best choice possible.

What I CAN do is attatch the Great General to the Warrior, so that we can get a free promotion to an Axeman out of him, giving us 4 Axemen getting 5 Experience Points each. Depending upon their existing Experience Points, I might be able to toss in a 5th unit (a Spear or a Chariot or something) in the mix to get a free promo, too.

It would be so cool if we could get willem/ham to close borders with charly

I will keep an eye out for it. Remaining in Hinduism is probably the best shot that we will ever get.



No comments for the Great Scientists? Does that mean that I can "do whatever I want to do" in regards to them, in your opinion?

 

[mystyfly]

Thanks for reminding me to fix the smilie I always screw that one up...

Walls are no good if there are few units involved, better get a couple more units. If we whip the sword we're at pop3, so we can't whip the archer next turn...

I wasn't suggesting settling the GG I was suggesting using it on an archer as axes are waste imo for defence as they can't get drill. And for offence, well there are 3 axes 1 sword IIRC who would all defend before the cats... having one uber-axe wouldn't help much in this case.

That idea of GG-ing a warrior is worth considering though, nice catch.


Forgot about the GS. Not sure - settling seems more appealing to me than bulbing at this point. We could bulb the next GS though.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Anyway, at best, Archery would come in 2 turns, since I have to finish Code of Laws (as per the rules) on the current turn.

Likely, it will take 3 or more turns if I switch from building Wealth to building a couple of additional Military Units, which is probably a wiser course of action than sticking with Wealth builds. If we hold our City, great, but if not, we'll want as many mobile units as possible.

Even if we do hold the City, we'll want additional units in case more reinforcements come while all of our defenders remain wounded.

 

[shyuhe]

I'd prefer to settle as we're going to lose ivory-corn no matter what we do. It's more of an issue of how can we stem the damage and recapture the city as soon as we can (as I think it's in everyone's interest to do so). And CR2 axes will be best for that job.

I didn't move the units on the last turn intentionally since we were at war under less than ideal circumstances.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Okay, so that's at least 3 people who want me to use the Great General on units.

I'm fine with settling the first Great Scientist and will probably Lightbulb Philosophy with the second if Taoism is available otherwise will settle him, too.

If anyone else prefers an Academy, speak up and tell me where you'd like to found it.

The AI is dumb, so mystyfly is right--we should get 2 turns of the AI Bombarding... I have seen a stack of 5 AI units with one being a Catapult bombard just because I had a Warrrior in the City. The AI might attack on the second turn, but probably not if I can empty Gem City of units and get those units there for turn 2, then be able to get the eastern City's Axes there for turn 3. Under those conditions, the AI will probably wait to attack until turn 3, but I'd also be happy if it attacked on turn 2 with less Collateral Damaging Cats going in first.

If I follow the rules explicitly, I am not allowed to abandon the City in favour of using CR Axes. It's unfair to someone with a Victory Condition that relies on buildings being built (especially Cultural VC since all Culture Buildings get destroyed upon City capture). So, given that requirement, I'll probably promote Axes like: Combat 1 -> Shock -> Combat II, in the hopes of "scaring off" enemy Axemen and Swordsmen from defending my attack on their stack, giving me better than 50-50 odds (Combat I or Combat II Axes versus City Raider Cats), while also having Shock promos for defense on the next turn for the Axes of ours that win. That'll be 4 Axes (counting the upgraded Warrior) that can launch an attack. Everyone else will have to empty the City when I utilize the Great General, so the Spearman will lose its fortification bonus, but the other units that will move in (Chariots) can't get a Fortification bonus anyway.

Given our rules, I think that this method is the method that I am forced to play (defending the City at all costs), and I much prefer this way compared to building CR units anyway, since Combat promos do roughly the same thing as CR 1 and CR 2 (CR 3 is where it gets interesting) in many siuations, while also being versatile enough to help in terms of homeland security. For example, I don't see us being able to launch a counter-attack on Charle for a while, but I DO foresee him sending more units at us, in which case Combat promos beat City Raider promos, unless you honestly believe that it is a valid strat to keep losing our City then retaking it with CR units--although doing so would be against our rules, so we can't use that strategy anyway. That said, such a "lose the City and recapture it" strategy might make for an interesting challenge in a different SG--"City Raider Promos Only SG" or something like that, where it is in your best interests to keep losing Cities to the AIs so that you can retake the Cities with your City Raider armies.

 

[r_rolo1]

Oh god, what a mess

Though cookie, but I agree with Dhoom plan , given the restrictions of our variant ( if only the previous player had let a wall in queue in the corn city ) . Regardless, we have little choice now ... defend the city at all costs Losing the city would not only be a PITA for one of the VCs but also would make harder to get Charly to the table...

I'm indiferent to the GG and GS usages, in spite of in normal circumstances it would be better to settle both .

 

[shyuhe]

I guess I should have stuffed a wall into the queue before handing off the save

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Though cookie, but I agree with Dhoom plan , given the restrictions of our variant

I expect a cookie if my kookie (variant: kooky) plan works!

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Oops, I should have asked when I had you guys online but I'll ask now anyway...
Presumbly, I'll switch to building Military Units in the Wealth Cities... but for how long? It probably doesn't help to have a massive stack of Axemen, right?

However, if we are able to negotiate a Peace treaty, should we take it?

Also, if we get Peace, would people be willing to go for an Elepult War? I mean, I could research Code of Laws (1 turn) -> Archery -> Construction -> Horseback Riding
OR
I could research Code -> Archery -> An economy-based techs, like Civil Service

If there are at least a couple of other players that would commit to a Military Unit buildup, then I suggest that we take peace with Charle and plan a war against Justinian. Justinian has a few nice Wonders, some decent land, land that is adjacent to our own, and is already at war with Hatty.

Hatty is the weaker of the two eastern combatants, so if Feudalism comes into play, we might see Hatty capitulating, which would make for a dangerous eastern front, no matter what our selected Victory Condition may be.

 

[shyuhe]

I'd be ok with an elepult war, but keep in mind that Charlie doesn't have direct borders with us. His cities are pretty far away. If we get peace, I'd actually consider going elepult on Justinian.

Oh wait, never mind. I see you're proposing that we hit Justinian with elephants and not HRE. Sounds good to me! I'd take peace with HRE after we re-conquer corn/ivory. It's a good city and the resources are nice. I think it gives us a monopoly on elephants.

 

[mystyfly]

I wouldn't mind a stack of axemen Charly wont sign peace after killing his mini-stack, we'll have to capture / raze one of his cities at least. Commiting to elepult route is fine by me though CS would be as well.

Maybe move the (healed) chariot(s) to ivory city to ensure that it holds should he attack against all odds and get def. bonuses.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Maybe move the (healed) chariot(s) to ivory city to ensure that it holds should he attack against all odds and get def. bonuses.

Oh, I plan to move nearly EVERY unit to the Ivory City (well, except maybe not the Military Police units for the northern Cities). Gem City and the eastern City will be emptied of units. It's a do-or-die things according to the rules.

If the rules fail us, then we'll just have to retweak the rules for the next game.

 

[mystyfly]

That shouldn't fail. That stack isn't impressive at all. I actually don't really understand considering to abandon that city.

 

[r_rolo1]

i don't think that any player will object to a credible military

That stack ... 4-5 axes and a spear can hold it with some luck, given that the city is in a hill. But feel free to get more units there

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Things start off nicely because I notice that we have 8 units that can get a promotion from receiving just 2 Experience Points. So, 10 units get +2 Experience Points and the Warrior becomes an El Cid Axeman.

Charle loses a couple of Catapults but has reinforcements on the way.

Here we see Charle losing more Catapults. Actually, at this point, I just decided to attack his stack, since we had a good number of units that had promos.

Here are most of the battle results. I left the last Chariot standing since I didn't have a unit that could get greater than 50% odds in attacking it. The Chariot suicided on our City on the following turn. Yeah, probably more units would have done the same, but I didn't really know that at the time and I didn't want the units to change their Mission into "pillage our lands" or "charge the other, nearly defenseless Cities."

Boo, hoo, we cannot trade with you.

A stack of reinforcements is easily routed.

Uhhhh, "no" to that deal. I guess that we'll just have to keep on fighting. So much for going after Justinian. Anyway, Justinian made peace with Hatshepsut, so now would not be the ideal time to attack him anyway.

I pushed into Willem's lands and spotted 2 Swordsmen gunning for our northern City. This fact gave me time to set up some Roads in time to be able to smite the 2 Swordsmen invaders with some Axemen.

After this point, the power went out at my place due to a thunderstorm, shutting off my computer. So, I'll have to load from an autosave when I pick the game up again, in order to finish off my turnset. CivFanatics also seemed to be down for quite some time... but probably not from the same thunderstorm, since I don't live anywhere near where the CivFanatics servers are hoseted.

There was not much that was happening anyway... I have started to build Catapults and will whip the first round of them, then will launch a counter-attack on one of Charle's Cities.

We'll need Alphabet to be able to Lightbulb Philosophy. After that, we can go for Horseback Riding for War Elephants.

We will have to keep a VERY close eye on AI teching on a turn-by-turn basis, in order to be ready to cancel our Ivory trades as soon as an AI learns Horseback Riding. Most of the AIs know Construction, so watching for them learning Horseback Riding is going to be the "trigger point" for cancelling our Ivory trades.