Conflict on Chiron

[Monaldinio]

Woooowwww, so much Info, thats what i need.

1. You need a better mod description in your front page, first thing. Essentially, what features there are, what makes it different from Planetfall, why one should install this mod, etc. Also, a Changelog is nice.

I will do.

2. Expansion seems slow. I am a slow expander, and playing with Morganites, so its okay for me to have 3 colonies. It gets ridiculous, though, to see Believers (at least on my current cartographic knowlodge) have two cities, one 15 and 12 in size. What the hell? They should have six or seven bases by now, with all that base growth.

Maybe it's enough if I increase the AI importance of colony pods.
But I've asked in the German forum, how to get it better under control.

Lal: +50 War Weariness. That's actually a quite good disadvantage for a faction called PEACEKEEPERS, but still, one of their problems was the inneficiency of the U.N Peacekeepers. How does one express that in Civ4?

> -1 Energie on Farms?!
or
> -10% Energie (Commerce)

...it can be transmitted in many ways...

3. Looking at the Datalinks, Leader stats seem inbalanced so far. Too many advantages, some not totally compatible and not enough disadvantages. Disadvantages, IMHO, estabilish the factions' character as much as their advantages. Let's see...

I compared the original leader of SMAC.

As an example: Deirdra

Planet +1 (environmentalists)
+2 Efficiency (Recycling & experience)
Police -1 (freedom loving)
-1 Morale (pacifist)
+1 Food on Fungus

I could add following:

> -1 happiness (for -1 morale (pacifist)
> -10% Production (for environmentalists)
> -10% Espionage (for freedom-loving)
> +1 Food on Fungus

What would you say about it??

4. The hints page is full of repeated hints.

I can work on it.

5. Why Wind Mills are substituting Solar Collectors? Granted, early game is futuristic current days tech, but I don't think Wind Mills would be able to supply the needs that colonists have in Planet, unless winds are REALLY strong in Chiron. Weird to see such a simple thing as Solar Collectors taking so much time to obtain.

You mean building a solar collector need to much time?!? I can change it...

6. Dawn of Planet Secret Project is... weird. So the Cult needs it to be founded? That's crazy. Why would one build a wonder which only makes one of his bases defect to a new-founded faction, and therefore serve the builder no porpouse at all? It would make more sense if it founded the Cult somewhere in the map (maybe even in Water if there's no land remaining? Opportunity for wacky games there) instead.

For this reason, I never build the Dawn of Planet Secret Project! I can change it...

7. Many Civics also lack disadvantages. There are no disadvantages for Democracy, Free Market, Planned and Power.

I compared the original Civics of SMAC.

As an example: Democracy

+2 growth
+2 efficiens
-2 support

I could add following:

> highter unit support costs ( -2 support)
> -10% espionage

- Psionic Space Warfare. No, I'm not talking about space native creatures, that would't make any sense, but rather the use of Psi Weaponry, Empaths and such to conduct attacks against enemy ships in space. If this has already been inserted, and I don't know because I've not reached the Orbital Age yet, disregard this.

Interesting thing!
Empaths on spaceships ... wich can capture units...

Hope I helped.

Thank you, That's what you done!!!

 

[Monaldinio]

These are my proposals for the Leader to make tem more unique ...
I have not listed the benefits...you can read them in the Civilopedia.
I would like to know what you think...
I used the original SMAC Leader characteristics as template...

Leader / Traits

Deirdre

> +1 Food to fungus

> +50% War unhappiness (freedom loving / pacifist)


Lal

> -1 energy on fields with +3 energy (inefficient - bureaucracy in the style of the UN)

or

> -15% energy/economy


Yang

> -20% energy/economy (no political freedom)


Zakharov

> -25% espionage (sensitive networks)


Morgen

> -15% unit production (expensive taste)


Santiago

> -15% unit production (extravagant weapons are expensive)


Miriam

> -25% Research (prejudice against science)


Aki

> -15% Basegrowth (no sexual instinct)


Svensgaard

> -1 energy on fields with +4 energy (the social structure of seamen)

or

> -15% energy/economy


Domai

> -20% Research (lack of interest in elite research projects)


Roze

> +25% War unhappiness (Hacker trends)


The Civic proposals will come tomorrow ...


Finally reached Orbital Era...l vs...ALL!

 

[Sgtslick]

I could change the following:

Energy Bank

- Instead of +25% energy, -30% maintenance

Because at the beginning of the game the energy cost which is caused by maintenance of buildings, is bigger, than the energy value wich could be produced by +25% energy.
So it would be also more logical because a bank should save energie and do not produce this.

Nuclear Reactor

- Instead of -30% maintenance, +35% energy

So it is logical, a reactor generates energy and do not save this.
Both together would be min. +10% more energy.

No not Energy profit, the ecology thing, the planet attitute. I did everything I could to reduce it, biology lab in all cities, empath guilds, 1 or 2 empaths per city, centauri preserve secret project. But it was still negative.. This is what I meant by profit- (a positive value.)

 

[Monaldinio]

...many Farms and Mines are the wrong way... More planetfriendly, you will see, it works. You should also plant some Fungus to nearby bases. It is better to have 5-7 semi Bases as 3-5 big Bases...

Send me your safegame please, i will have a look...

 

[Slaughter]

Damn, I had a nice reply all typed out, pressed the wrong button and there it goes, let's try again.

I have started a new game with Believers, deity level, no tech brokering. Huge map, as always.

Some things I noticed:

Colonization: AI Seems better now, but it might be just the deity bonuses. Or maybe the continent I am inside just seems mostly fungus free, hell, my territory barely has any fungus! There's some area between my territory and the University's, which is full of ridges and fungus, and its full of mindworms and spore launchers, its still unsettled, probrably because the University keeps getting their troops killed there. I think I actually saw some native life wipe out a university colony in early game.
In a interesting note, The University has north-pole colonies, and we're around the middle of the map, and he's using biomed, so these three or four colonies seem to be doing quite well. Didn't know the AI was smart enough to use biomed in these cases.

Native Life: I actually started in a area with low fungus. The nearby land fungus I see is full of spore launchers and mindworms that seem to be content simply staying there and killing anything that comes near, therefore stopping the building of a colony or two around their land. I'm not even sure my army would be enough to kill them, and I got a good ammount of Impact Troopers and Flamethrowners.
In the sea, Native Life seems to rule supreme until you have 1. decent production capabilities to produce a small gun foil fleet without weakening your expansion and 2. Anti-Psi promotions unlocked though centauri techs and also 3. Buildings and civics that give you a decent ammount of XP. I have no idea how AI manages to send their ships to explore like its freaking Civ III, probrably cheating and lots and lots of Empath Song. As a rule, anything less than three anti-psi gunfoils usually get eaten in the sea. Isles of the Deep and Sealurks often have company, and without the extra visibility promotion, by the time you see the monsters coming, its usually too late. Someone needs to watch and see how affected the Pirates are by the power of sea natives.

Diplomacy: Quite interesting how its going. Deirdre is currently a protectorate of Morgan, who founded the Voice of Planet, so we now have Eco-Morgan protecting Deirdre, very odd. Zakharov hates my civics and my religion, but we traded for so much tech by now that he's not exactly friendly, but he's not going to be attacking me so far. Aki destest me because of my civics and has no reason to like me, but she doesn't seem disposed to attacking. Strangely, my best friends are Lal, Yang and Sinder Rose, and my main antagonists are Deirdre, Morgan and Luttinien. Is it possible to make a leader averse to more than one civic? Can't see Democratic Lal and Atheist Police State Yang being totally cool with a religious fundamentalistic.

Bugs and problems:

Datalinks in general need more love. If you want some descriptions written, I could do it, though I would need to find a program that allows me to easily edit datalink entries, I'm sure there's one around here somewhere. I would need a full explanation of what some things are intented to do, like some Great Persons.

There is actually stuff MISSING from data links. Case in point: Irregular promotion and Magtubes.

A nitpicky thing: Ins't the upgrade from Rover to Chopper a bit strange and early? Choppers in SMAC were middle to late game air units, mainly because they were immensely powerful. Having no perfect substitute for more advanced Rovers feel strange. It would make more sense if Unity Choppers appeared at around the time we got needlejets, then better choppers appear later.

Dawn of Planet, of course. Worst way to fund a faction ever, just make Cha' Dawn show up after some Centauri tech.


Queries:

- Any plans for religions?
- Any plans for alien factions?
- Any plans for a atrocity system?

I would answer your questions, but I've already typed this three times and every other time, something happened and took away what I already typed, so I'm going to send this right now and answer the rest tomorrow, or I will be here for eternity.

 

[Freakwave]

Thats why i type long reply's in notepad these days and then copy paste in.
or use copy when i type.

Dierdre

on the war weariness.

would a ecologist who sees another planet get destroyed sit back and let it happen again? Im thinking ecoterrorist ala CTP.

Yang and Morgan. Both ruthless one totalitarian other corporatist. Give Yang more efficient production but less commerce and morgan less defence against native units because of their arrogance vs "the weak". This could be a problem in the early game. Or maybe less of everything from fungus plots for Morganites.

I agree with the above poster on the Aki spawn. Sometimes in the middle of someoneelses territory.

 

[Monaldinio]

Thats why i type long reply's in notepad these days and then copy paste in.
or use copy when i type.

Dierdre

on the war weariness.

would a ecologist who sees another planet get destroyed sit back and let it happen again? Im thinking ecoterrorist ala CTP.

You are right! Hey a new Promotion is born..ecoterrorism...
Let's see what comes to mind.

I agree with the above poster on the Aki spawn. Sometimes in the middle of someoneelses territory.

You mean the Cult of Planet - Cha Dawn, not Aki right?!?!

 

[Monaldinio]

Someone needs to watch and see how affected the Pirates are by the power of sea natives.

I think it could be a good idea to give the Pirates Naval Yard +2 Experience Pionts for all Cruiser und boat units...

Diplomacy: Quite interesting how its going. Deirdre is currently a protectorate of Morgan, who founded the Voice of Planet, so we now have Eco-Morgan protecting Deirdre, very odd. Zakharov hates my civics and my religion, but we traded for so much tech by now that he's not exactly friendly, but he's not going to be attacking me so far. Aki destest me because of my civics and has no reason to like me, but she doesn't seem disposed to attacking. Strangely, my best friends are Lal, Yang and Sinder Rose, and my main antagonists are Deirdre, Morgan and Luttinien. Is it possible to make a leader averse to more than one civic? Can't see Democratic Lal and Atheist Police State Yang being totally cool with a religious fundamentalistic.

Sounds interesting. I do not know if I should understand it as a slight criticism or realy interessting thing.
Isn't it good, if not everything happens as expected? For example Morgan, who founded the Voice of Planet,
because of this reason he is more environmentally friendly than usual .. and have a pact with another Eco, because it fits at the moment??

Bugs and problems:

Datalinks in general need more love. If you want some descriptions written, I could do it, though I would need to find a program that allows me to easily edit datalink entries, I'm sure there's one around here somewhere. I would need a full explanation of what some things are intented to do, like some Great Persons.
There is actually stuff MISSING from data links.

You're absolutely right. Datalinks in general need more love. But to me it was too cumbersome to give them that love.
I think much of the new techs need love, and some Units...as well as some Improvements.
I could make a list if you really want to help me...where an entry is required!

Case in point: Irregular promotion and Magtubes.

What do you mean?
Which Irregular promotion and Magtubes...

A nitpicky thing: Ins't the upgrade from Rover to Chopper a bit strange and early? Choppers in SMAC were middle to late game air units, mainly because they were immensely powerful. Having no perfect substitute for more advanced Rovers feel strange. It would make more sense if Unity Choppers appeared at around the time we got needlejets, then better choppers appear later.

I share your opinion! For the future, no upgrate from rover to chopper...

Dawn of Planet, of course. Worst way to fund a faction ever, just make Cha' Dawn show up after some Centauri tech.

I share your opinion too.

Queries:

- Any plans for religions?
- Any plans for alien factions?
- Any plans for a atrocity system?

Aliens

They will start much earlier, with Fusion Power.
+2 extra Starttechs - Industrial Base, Archeology.
I think they need an own trait.
They need there unique orbital fleet, I've already selected the ships and must only installed them.
But more ideas...are much better, do you have some?!?

Religions

...not yet...

Atrocity system

...not yet...

 

[Sgtslick]

...many Farms and Mines are the wrong way... More planetfriendly, you will see, it works. You should also plant some Fungus to nearby bases. It is better to have 5-7 semi Bases as 3-5 big Bases...

Send me your safegame please, i will have a look...

I think its because Pirates. Pirates are broken, you NEED sea mines or you have 0 production.

Also like I said, there is no way to defend because I cannot create choke points in the sea. No sensor tower, no bunkers in the sea etc And flame thrower units don't give bonus vs isles and sea lurk, so i have no defensive units.

Im not saying the whole ecology system is broken, but pirates are

 

[Monaldinio]

I think its because Pirates. Pirates are broken, you NEED sea mines or you have 0 production.

Also like I said, there is no way to defend because I cannot create choke points in the sea. No sensor tower, no bunkers in the sea etc And flame thrower units don't give bonus vs isles and sea lurk, so i have no defensive units.

Why dont you promote your flamethrower with hypnotic Trance (+25% vs Native Life) and Nerve Staplers (+20% Base Defense, garrisoned Base 20% less likely to revolt)?!?
Or are you doing this already?

In next Update Version will come

The Parites gain a +1 Production Bonus on Ocean and the Prirate Naval Yard will give +2 Experience points for Units.

I think that should work...

Don't forgat, you can promote yor Landbunkers with the special Ability "Naval Fortress"!

The Sensor tower will come in the next Update Version, Promotion "Resoradar" (+1 Visibility Range and can see hidden Native Life).

Was it possible to build bunker and sensors on water in the original SMAC?!?!

 

[Sgtslick]

No it wasn't possible. But land units couldn't walk on water either

 

[En_Dotter]

Was it possible to build bunker and sensors on water in the original SMAC?!?!

Nope. Only usual stuff like kelp, solar things, mines (was called differently as far as i know), could terraform to rise/lower terrain. I forgot what else. Was ages ago when i last played it.
I think i have Alpha Centauri + Alien Crossfire installed and i have the install discs around im sure. If you want i can check all u need.

EDIT:
Just to say i havent played this mod, wont play it in the following weeks cus of other stuff, but im willing to provide info and try it later.

 

[Sgtslick]

I've played like 1000 smacx MP games.. so my brain is packed full of smacx knowledge

 

[En_Dotter]

Any chance u can implement diplomacy "engine" used in smac? The civ one is ******** compared to that one. A hybrid would be nice also

I've played like 1000 smacx MP games.. so my brain is packed full of smacx knowledge

Damn it... I played like 1000 smac... U got that x that is bothering me...

 

[Monaldinio]

Any chance u can implement diplomacy "engine" used in smac? The civ one is ******** compared to that one.

Sorry En_Dotter...but sometimes my english is not good enough to capture a context.
What do you mean by "The civ one is ******** compared to that one."

A hybrid would be nice also

What kind of hybrid?!?!

 

[En_Dotter]

Well since u are making a mod that resembles SMAC (if im not mistaken) i would like to see diplomacy as it was in SMAC. By ******** i mean the following:
1. If you are in defensive pact with the other side, and that side becomes attacked (therefore war is declared) you cannot choose if you are going to help the defensive pact ally or not. Sometimes i dont want to be at war with someone just because my ally got attacked. In SMAC your ally would contact you and ask u if you would be there for them. Ofc sometimes that could put a question on the Pack Brother (Sister) agreement.

2. If you are at war with someone and you got an ally who is also at war with the same opponent there is an option "Coordinate our next assault". That doesnt exist in Civ. Is it possible to implement it?

3. There is a possibility of giving or taking loans. So i want 100 credits and i give it back every turn with some %interest. So its basically one side gives amount of gold and other side gives it back every turn a little bit, but at the end the side that has given the starting sum gets more.

That is all i could remember so far. Its been ages since i played SMAC to be honest.

By hybrid i meant the potential merger of current CIV diplomacy with SMAC diplomacy. For example, take bad things out and put good thing in from both games.
Again im not into modding so i really dont have a clue if that is possible and if it is how hard it is to do it.

What is your native language btw i might have some friends that speak your language so i can give them to translate if there are still problems. I really wanna help with this mod.

 

[Silica_Pathways]

2. If you are at war with someone and you got an ally who is also at war with the same opponent there is an option "Coordinate our next assault". That doesnt exist in Civ. Is it possible to implement it?

It does exist. Although i don't remember how detailed was the attack coordination in SMAC, in Civ4 you can ask your ally to attack specific cities.

 

[En_Dotter]

Im sorry but could u explain that last thing u said? How can i tell AI in CIV (not in SMAC) to attack a certain city?

 

[Silica_Pathways]

Im sorry but could u explain that last thing u said? How can i tell AI in CIV (not in SMAC) to attack a certain city?

When you together with an AI fight the same oponent who has more than one city, when you talk to you your ally, choose not the above option, but the lower 'Let's discuss something else...' option and it will have new suboption available called "Why don't you attack..."

I attached a screenshot from my recent game with that option. Although the screenshot is not from vanilla Civ4, but from ST mod, the options are the same in vanilla (or any mod) too

 

[En_Dotter]

Lol! Am i a noob or what? My god... I have been playing CIV for like ages and havent seen that option! Ahahahhaha! So cool. Tnx man!