Confucian,a religion?

luckrock

Chieftain
Joined
Feb 22, 2006
Messages
25
:confused: No, I don't think so.I'd think the game designer have a mis-understanding about Confucian.
obviously,every religion has its own myth (like Allah for Isiam and God for Juda),while the Confucian never has any "God" or myth on the real world.
every religion has its own "temple "and priest and followers and lead many wars between different belief people and areas like (Chirstan) crusade vs (Isiam) Saladin,and today Israel(Juda) vs Syria(Isiam) ,and Pakistan vs India.
So in game u always see AI say" My God ... your God...".
But for Confucian I would say it's more like a philosophy which teach people how to think ,act in a society and family.Just like Aristotle's theory.Confucian is Not a religion for poeple to believe.
Any idea?
 
You see religion in a very narrow way, religion can be much more then just a believe in a god (our gods).
Religion can be (as you say) a philosophy, a way of life, it may not be a religion in the pure form of Religion, but it has the same values as another religion, and many people follow it, so it can be classified as a religion in the broader form.
 
You are right I find it quite irrational that this simple bit of research should be overlooked. Buddhism too is a philosphy of life rather than a religion Taoism would have been a better choice or animal worship or paganism as a lot of early civs had these as religions aztecs egypt greece rome american indians aborigines etc really dont like the whole religion thing in the game
 
Confucianism is a religion in the modern day world, in a way. However when Confucianism was first invented it was simply a philosophy first given to Chinese emporers and became much like it's later Western counterpart, (a book) Proper Manner by (?)
 
luckrock said:
Confucian I would say it's more like a philosophy which teach people how to think
Like you said: It's a philosophy, a way of life, AND MOST IMPORTANCE:

TEACH PEOPLE HOW TO THINK


and that is the problem of nations today!!!
 
Zenon_pt said:
Like you said: It's a philosophy, a way of life, AND MOST IMPORTANCE:

TEACH PEOPLE HOW TO THINK


and that is the problem of nations today!!!

Do you mean the problem is that nation do teach people how to think or that they don't?

In my eyes, I decide the way of how I think, as far as possible ofcourse:)
 
Confusianism is generally considered a Religion.
Its' basis is in a strict Philosophical and Ethical code, but over time it has grown into a Religion with the additions of Rituals and reverence for Great Figures and such. Those same things are hallmarks of more "Tradtional" Religions.
 
It's considered a religion by most people and it's fairly well known, which is enough to justify its inclusion, especially considering that religion in the game is generic and meaningless. To say it's not a religion just because it is not like the western religions is pure fallacy and cultural bias.
 
Oh, this conversation again.

Confucianism can, yes, be primarily understood as an ethical and legal framework intended to foster social and political harmony. And, if you just think of it in those terms, then it doesn't look all that much like Pentacostalism or whatever it is in your frame of reference.

However, it should be remembered that Kongzi sought to recapture the political harmony he felt had been achieved in the Zhou dynasty, and that the Zhou had sought to give their reign an aura of acceptability by a) importing the ritual practices of the previous Shang dynasty, including a large number of rituals that were shamanic or proto-shamanic in nature, and b) stating that the Zhou were fated to become the rulers of China because the Shang had lost the Mandate of Heaven.

The Mandate of Heaven can be boiled down to a belief that those who hold power are legitimated in doing so, and, conversely, if they lose power, then that too has been fated. Note the word "Heaven." Classically, Heaven was thought of as a) Nature itself, b) Nature in the sense of an underlying pattern or theme to human and natural events, and c) an active personality overseeing a) and b). It is also worth noting that a dynast's possession of the Mandate of Heaven was influenced, not only by their success in human activities suc has trying to conquer Kogoryo, but also by the frequency and severity of natural portents such as earthquakes and floods.

Along with the notion of the Mandate of Heaven, the Confucian worldview also includes a stress on the performance of ritual. These rituals go beyond things such as court etiquette and dress etc, and include a large number of acts designed to propitiate the gods. This pantheon, which was added to over the course of Chinese history by the influences of Daoism and Mahayana Buddhism, included not only Shang-ti, the ruler of Heaven (aka the Jade Emperor), but also an almost incalculable clutch of deities. Eventually, there arose in the Chinese religious consciousness a sense of a bureaucratized pantheon, and scholars have pointed out how, in some respects, Chinese religious life mirrored the experience of political and social life.

The final aspect of how Confucianism does indeed have religious elements that I want to mention is the belief in souls. Each person had two souls, the hun and the po. One of these dissipated fairly quickly after death, but the other endured, and was the recipient of sacrificial offerings. This is what became known as ancestor worship - its roots are more religious in that they held more shamanic aspects to the rituals, but the basic notion of offering respect, food, money, and material objects to the deceased is an inescapably religious act.

As a postscript of sorts, I'd like to note that the idea that Confucianism is not actually a religion was first bandied about by the Jesuits who had settled in China with the intent of cornering this massive market for conversion to Christianity. However, they ran into a couple of problems: a) there was a large religious framework already in place when they got there, namely the Confucian practices and beliefs, b) the Chinese weren't interested in giving up ancestral sacrifices, and c) the Vatican wasn't going to allow the Chinese to be dual-classing their religious practice, so to speak. So, the Jesuits, led by Matteo Ricci, downplayed the religious aspects of Chinese practice, and tried to get the Chinese to accept Christianity as a minor addendum to what they were already doing - with minimal success, it should be pointed out.

Further reading on the subject can be found in Lionel M. Jensen's Manufacturing Confucianism, published by Duke University in 2000.
 
First, I am so sorry about my poor english, I am a Chinese and could say some chinese people's thinking.

In China,people DO NOT consider Confucian is a religion.
But we all think Taoism is a religion, and in some chinese book said Taoism is the only religion be found in China. Do you know why?

Taoism first is a theory or a philosophy be found by Lao Tzu. It is the time 300BC.And soon Confucian has be found by Confucius, and at that time all of them are just theory or philosophy.
But in 200AD, some people believe Taoism has found Taoism like a religion,and then Taoism become a religion.So in china there are two different words to say Taoism,one is the doctrine of Lao Tzu,like a theory or a philosophy,called "Dao Jia"道家 and another is a religion,called "Dao Jiao"道教.They are different.
But we always consider that Confucian is the doctrine of Confucius and Mencius,and NOT a religion.

Certainly Confucian is look like a religion,because in the age of Han Dynasty,10 AD.China emperor choose Confucian to be the most important doctrine of the state. In fact Confucian become the most important doctrine in 1100 BC,the age of Song Dynasty.All the student must and nearly only study Confucian doctrine,and at that time Confucius be consider like a GOD,Mencius is also.So maybe it's look like Confucian to be a religion, but in fact chinese consider all the great people which they like so much to be a GOD,and if they don't like someone so much,like the renegades, they consider them to be a animal.
So there is so less prophets in china,because we don't need prophets,peolple consider all the Great people to be GOD.It's most like the chinese custom.
So in china we don't think Confucian is a religion,maybe its look like.We think Confucian is just a great doctrine.is a moral rule.

But in western(we call European and America),some people consider Confucian is a special religion.That may because we don't have some history,Chinese don't have a religion like Christianism or Islam which changed us a lot.Replace just a doctrine change us. So maybe if consider Confucian to be a religion can help western to understand us quickly and easily.

But in china,we all don't think Confucian is a religion.It just doctrine of Confucius and Mencius,a moral rule,philosophy.YOU agree with it or not,Not belief it.

Sorry again about my english,I wish you all understand what I say.
 
The short answer is that Firaxis was well aware that Confusionism isn't a "religion", but it fills a similar gameplay role.
 
I agree that Confucianism can be considered a religion because it has strong religious aspects.

I don't think people should be too adherent to the idea that Buddhism or Confucianism is a philosophy of life which makes it somehow distinct from western religion. Western religions have a philosophical basis also, and not just peripherally. If you want to understand the underpinnings of Christianity, for instance, read neo-Platonist thought, and Alexandrianism a mystic form of Christianity that was based on neo-Platonism. Christian concepts are largely metaphysical, and the main distinction between neo-Platonism and Christianity was that Christianity rejected myticism--in this case the idea you can have direct unmediated communion with God--so was based on allegorical teachings [what the Bible is, but as for metaphysics, the holy trinity is a good example of this--allegorical is not the same as metaphoric, btw] and ritual [much of which was adopted from pagan and Roman ritual]. Judaism historically is highly tied to Kabbalistic philosophy. And Islam just makes very important the idea of ritual as superceding life, depending on a need for a legal, literal interpretation of scripture.

At the same time, I think its important to distinguish what is just philosophy and what is religion. Its important to understand what is not just a -mere- philosophy- Religion always has some codified aspect or practice to it, which leads to particular objects of worship and particular rituals; and the way that this is justified is generally to refer to some definable higher nature, even if it is -supposedly- not definable like the Tao.

[my idea of what a cult is, is something that is about particular material things, so fails to be abstract enough to have a broader universality to its teachings]
 
I also agree that Confucianism should be a religion. While the basic foundation of Confucianism is philosophical and not metaphysical in the least, it dovetails so seemelessly with Oriental ancestor worship that the two went hand-in-hand. Additionally, Confucianism was at odds throughout its history with both buddhism and daoism, which we can all agree are religions (despite both lacking a true "god"-type figure that Euro-centrics seem to deem as absolutely neccesary).
 
luckrock said:
:confused: No, I don't think so.I'd think the game designer have a mis-understanding about Confucian.
obviously,every religion has its own myth (like Allah for Isiam and God for Juda),while the Confucian never has any "God" or myth on the real world.
every religion has its own "temple "and priest and followers and lead many wars between different belief people and areas like (Chirstan) crusade vs (Isiam) Saladin,and today Israel(Juda) vs Syria(Isiam) ,and Pakistan vs India.
So in game u always see AI say" My God ... your God...".
But for Confucian I would say it's more like a philosophy which teach people how to think ,act in a society and family.Just like Aristotle's theory.Confucian is Not a religion for poeple to believe.
Any idea?

Buddhism and Jainism are two religion that completely lack gods
 
Religion : A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader. Thats just one way religion can be defined, taken from www.dictionary.com.

A religion does not require a god, myth or anything else supernatural, noir does it require the belief in anything supernatural... like furrie said, your definition of a religion is a very narrow one.

The only reason why athiesm is not a religion is because it is not formally passed down from one person to another.
 
AvianAvenger said:
Religion : A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader. Thats just one way religion can be defined, taken from www.dictionary.com.

A religion does not require a god, myth or anything else supernatural, noir does it require the belief in anything supernatural... like furrie said, your definition of a religion is a very narrow one.

The only reason why athiesm is not a religion is because it is not formally passed down from one person to another.
technically Atheism is more a religion than is Agnosticism, because all Atheist share a fundamental belief that there is/are no god(s)
 
Sociologists generally agree today that there is no simple definition of "religion". Many people have, in the past (and even today), sought to find an "essential characteristic" that defines religion. For some it is belief in a supernatural being, for some an ethical code, for some a ritual element. But you can find examples of phenomena that are generally accepted as religions which lack any of these (Theravada Buddhism has no supernatural element, Shinto has no ethical element to speak of, certain forms of Pietism rejected all rituals, etc).

The fact is that "religion" has no easily determined meaning. Rather, we use it as we see fit on an ad hoc basis. If I were more pretentious I'd refer to Wittgenstein and word games; nevertheless, it's true that, just as there is no common element to all "games", so too there is no common element to all "religions". Attempts to find a definition and then exclude certain religions because they don't fit that definition invariably indicate that the definition is flawed, not that the religion in question is not really a religion.

As for atheism, that is not a religion, any more than theism is. Rather, both are beliefs which may or may not form part of a given religion. Religions are not the same things as beliefs.

The upshot of all this is: Confucianism is a religion if you want it to be. To be perfectly frank it strikes me as far more of a religion than a "philosophy" - I see very few similarities between Confucius and Aristotle. It is true that Daoism is more evidently a religion than Confucianism - at least religious Daoism as opposed to the philosophical variety, although even here there are still many people who deny that it is a religion at all. But I think Firaxis chose wisely in going for Confucianism over Daoism, because it is just that much more representative of Chinese (for want of a better word) religion.
 
Plotinus said:
But I think Firaxis chose wisely in going for Confucianism over Daoism, because it is just that much more representative of Chinese (for want of a better word) religion.

I don't know what you meant by 'going for Confucianism over Daoism', because both are in the game.
 
well,very much moved for so many answers in the days when i am traveling the city"Qing huang Island"-a city named from"qing shi huang".and sorry for reply so late.
Chinese(including me),creator of Confucian,first, don't agree Confucian is a religion.we would think Tao " and "Buddish" are two major religion in China(and in Korean and Japan).
Beside chinese ,Any japanese or Korean or Singapore people here?if yes,do u agree that confucian a religion?I have visisted South Korea and Japan for several times.I would say people in these countries still follow the "confucian "living style .I think most people in these area where confucian spread would not think confucian is a religion.
Regilion ,as my option ,should be people in the ancient ages who could understand the wind,storm,thunder,fire,for the fearness ,they believe there exist gods who in charge of those power of nature.so reglion created.those ancient people also believe that gods control people's life and death,etc.
from all above ,confucian ,I (and most people lived in south-east Asia) would think that the confucian IS NOT a so-called western religion).
Also hope the game designers of CIV4 to delete it from the religion list.It is just a misunderstanding to this great theoretics and a discrimination to
chinese great culture.and my purpose is to guide those western a correct unstanding of Chinese culture.
Thanks.
RGS!
 
Top Bottom