Conquest 03: First Spoiler (end of ancient age)

[Megalou]

So how is reverse war weariness affected by governement type? i.e. do you get more of an impact if you are in Republic or Democracy or less.

Monarchy or despotism. Those are two government types that allow reverse war weariness. Democracy and republic do not. I haven't tried any of the new government types, and I don't know about communism. I'd be surprised if no one enlightens further us on this issue.

It's only a matter of one unhappy citizen becoming content, I think, but as you know SirPleb is a pro.

 

[AlanH]

Pardon, I'm a little slow, but are you saying that contacting rivals can affect the RNG? In my game I had a computer crash right after the critical turn where civs were gifted into the MA. When I replayed the turn (I thought identically), everone got different free techs. Could my contacting them in a different order be the reason?

If you contact a civ you get a 'random' response. How do you think the software chooses the response?

 

[Megalou]

Alan, that sounds like the first introduction to the preface of a novice programming course. Yet, I can only guess: Is the RNG like some kind of blob that never assumes exactly the same form again, even though the randomness involves completely different things on the screen?

 

[al_thor]

I have almost given up on this game several times. For some reason, I developed a deep hatred of India, and have more or less devoted the game to wiping him out, which has not been easy by any means, as he was always much more advanced than I. However, this 'single-minded' devotion has probably cost me the game, but I care not about that as it has made the game VERY fun to play as I have not fretted over decisions and strategies - just went with the flow and tried to make life miserable for Ghandi.

The good news-
1) I'm still alive
2) I have FINALLY wiped out the hated Indians and I have almost all of his land (Ottoman's took a couple of India's cities).

The bad news-
1) Carthage is absolutely HUGE and threatens Domination, Space Race.
2) I'm stuck in the Industrial Age while all other AI have (and are launching ) nuclear weapons
3) Any of the 3 rival civs could do Space Race before I even get to the Modern Age.

There are only 4 of us left - Carthage, Netherlands, Ottomans. I figure the only chance I have is Diplomatic. Ottoman's built the UN over 40 or 50 turns ago, but have not held a vote yet. Maybe they never will. They are at war with Carthage. Everyone was Gracious to me (except India of course ) and now they are just plain Polite and only that after giving them $100, otherwise they are Annoyed. I am currently in Monarchy but I will find out the preffered gov't of the remaining 3 and switch a gov't that they like or at least do not hate and hope for a Diplo vote.

This could be my highest scoring, longest played Loss ever, but it was all worth it as I had a blast playing this map. (class = Open).
Thanks Ainwood!!

 

[MjM]

This COTM reminded me why Im not at the Demigod diffuiculty yet

 

[Psychonaut777]

^ same here. I have a whole lot to learn. I can't believe the amazing start I had, but it all went downhill in the MA. It was all I could do to stay at peace, but it was impossible to keep up in tech! =(

 

[al_thor]

The only reason that I am in the Industrial Age is that I shut my Science off before learning Education and then I captured the Great Library from India. That rocketed me all the way into the the middle of the Industrial Age in one turn - it was awesome!

I bought and sold my way through a good part of the Industrial until the AI just outpaced me again.

I'm a Republic now. Carthage made peace with Ottoman's but then the Dutch declared on Carthage. Bad idea - Carthage hit him with 6 or 7 nukes. Dutch will soon be conquered by Carthage which will probably put him over the 66% Domination limit. Yikes!

One thing that scares me in this game - I have witnessed the AI do the following tactic with great success: They bombard a coastal city with Bombers and ships, and then use Marines for Amphibious (sp?) assault, easily taking the city.

 

[SirPleb]

are you saying that contacting rivals can affect the RNG? In my game I had a computer crash right after the critical turn where civs were gifted into the MA. When I replayed the turn (I thought identically), everone got different free techs. Could my contacting them in a different order be the reason?

As AlanH says, you get random responses from the other Civs when speaking with them. The RNG gives out a predetermined sequence of "random" numbers. So if it is called an extra time in one person's method of playing vs. another's then all subsequent results in the two games can be different - one person is now using numbers further down in that predetermined sequence than the other for the same events.

It looks like Conquests has a different approach to this than when I last checked it. It seems to be using two (or more) separate RNG sequences, one for "important" events such as battle results, another for "unimportant" things such as the text message you get when contacting a Civ.

There are a huge number of events in the program which use up a number from the RNG sequence. I don't know if any of them could be different depending on which Civ you contact first when dealing with them. A difference there does seem possible and could account for the different free techs you got.

 

[SirPleb]

This is about the third time I've seen somebody mention "reverse war weariness", somthing I didn't know existed. Can anybody explain it or point me to a thread that discusses it?

Click here for Oystein's thread describing war weariness and reverse war weariness.

You get reverse war weariness when another Civ declares war on you. Reverse war weariness goes away when enough things which cause regular war weariness have happened, e.g. your units or cities being defeated.

Really i never knew that. Does that also mean when you declare war later on that same civ your people will be happy?

As far as I know: If any Civ which you've been at peace with since the start of the game declares war on you, then for the rest of the game any time you are at peace with them, and any previous war weariness you might have had with them has worn off, then if you declare war on that Civ you start off with a fresh quota of reverse war weariness.

Monarchy or despotism. Those are two government types that allow reverse war weariness. Democracy and republic do not.
...
It's only a matter of one unhappy citizen becoming content, I think

I think you get reverse war weariness in every government type, including Republic and Democracy.

For each Civ you are getting reverse war weariness from, I think you get one happy face per four citizens in each city, rounded down. E.g. if you are getting reverse war weariness from three rivals, a town with 3 citizens gets no benefit but a town with 4 citizens gets three happy faces.

 

[Abegweit]

@Drazek and SirPleb

Remarkable that all three of us entered the Middle Ages in exactly the same year with precisely the same techs and a similar-sized empire.

 

[krisk]

It was really easy in this game to help speed up the tech rate by playing tech trader. But my game hasn't been great, and I tend to think that speeding up the tech rate might have been partly to blame.

I know that the top players like to speed things up to get earlier wins, but for those of us who are only just becoming comfortable with, say, Emperor level, might it be a better idea to slow down the tech pace on these higher levels?

It just seems to me that a player needs to make sure that his or her empire expands at a rate comparable to the tech rate, so that the manufacturing base is capable of producing the more shield-expensive uints, so that the economy can afford to keep up with the rising costs of technology and so that the infrastructure doesn't become outdated.

For example, getting to the industrial ages before having had a chance to build a single library or bank will be a problem if the AIs decide that their techs are worth more than you can afford to pay but you still don't have the literacy to research them yourself any faster than the 50-turn minimum.

Does this make sense?

 

[AlanH]

As AlanH says, you get random responses from the other Civs when speaking with them. The RNG gives out a predetermined sequence of "random" numbers. So if it is called an extra time in one person's method of playing vs. another's then all subsequent results in the two games can be different - one person is now using numbers further down in that predetermined sequence than the other for the same events.

That's right. The RNG is just a list of jumbled numbers. The software uses each number in turn when it wants to make a decision. It compares it against a threshold value for that decision to get a Yes or No.

It looks like Conquests has a different approach to this than when I last checked it. It seems to be using two (or more) separate RNG sequences, one for "important" events such as battle results, another for "unimportant" things such as the text message you get when contacting a Civ.

That's interesting. I know that Cracker campaigned for this to improve the comparability of games. Sounds like Firaxis may have listened.

There are a huge number of events in the program which use up a number from the RNG sequence. I don't know if any of them could be different depending on which Civ you contact first when dealing with them. A difference there does seem possible and could account for the different free techs you got.

It's very difficult to be sure you called up the civs in exactly the same sequence and excactly the same number of times. Just one extra query, or a return to check with a previously contacted civ would break the sequence.

 

[bradleyfeanor]

It's very difficult to be sure you called up the civs in exactly the same sequence and exactly the same number of times. Just one extra query, or a return to check with a previously contacted civ would break the sequence.

You are right. The first time around there were dozens of contacts on that turn, just to check for what they had and to find the best trades. I only recorded contacts that involved trades in my log. The second time I went straight for the trades more or less. I had no clue that it made a difference.

Thanks for all the feedback guys.

 

[Darkness]

(predator)

I completely forgot to keep a detailed timeline this game (must have been the heat, cause it’s been over 30 degrees in Holland the last week), and I also forgot to save at 1000BC (so no QSC for me), but here’s a short summary of my game…

My ancient age was quite uneventful….
I had little trouble with barbarians, except for a village on the northern peninsula

After moving the worker west, I saw the cattle and with some fog gazing I also saw the game, so the settler went SE, to built my capital/settler factory.
Researched pottery at max, followed by the Republic slingshot, which was successful in 1275BC, after which I drew a 4-turn anarchy. After establishing my Republic I traded for some other techs and continued expanding

The Byzantine empire at 1000 BC:
11 towns (total population: 23)
1 granary, 2 barracks
3 settlers, 11 workers, 10 warriors, 1 spearman and 2 curraghs
Treasury: 379 gold
Missing AA techs: Monarchy, currency, construction and literature (will get literature next turn)
Six contacts and embassies…
Score: 346, less than half of India’s score, my next door neighbour….

Research continued and in 710BC I discovered currency, and I was the first civilization to enter the Middle Ages… Trading and gifting techs to/with the scientific AI’s netted me Monotheism (Ottoman & Russia) and Engeneering (Persia), so I got Feudalism as my free tech…

The plan: build libraries and barrack. Hook up horses and iron. Build lots of horseman. Upgrade to knights. Eliminate India…. (I hope)

 

[King Of America]

re: response of AI to contact

Bamspeedy wrote a long article about AI attitude, in which I thouight he says that the AI's initial attitude is Civ-dependent.

Was he wrong or are you talking about a different aspect of diplomacy?

 

[bradleyfeanor]

Bamspeedy wrote a long article about AI attitude, in which I thouight he says that the AI's initial attitude is Civ-dependent.

Was he wrong or are you talking about a different aspect of diplomacy?

If you are refering to the conversation I was in, we were actually talking about how contacting an AI consults the Random Number Generator (RNG). When you contact someone, the game calls on a random number to determine the AIs words, but this has no relation to AI attitude. Bamspeedy's article is correct as far as I know.

 

[dominox]

I will not be submitting this game as I was totally overrun by India.
My problem? Tech!
How on earth do you manage to stay ahead in tech in games as hard as this one?
I usualy play my games on harder leves like Deity, but I gave up on tech and wonders a long time ago. Basicly, I turn the tax-slider to 0% science and trade for techs as soon as I can afford them. Still, by the time I reach the middle ages the AI is often finished with it.

After giving up on this game, I have re-played it several times to see if I can find out what I'm doing wrong. I've tried several strategies without any luck. When abandoning all other "usefull" techs to try for the republic slingshot, the AI still gets philosophy way ahead of me - even when micromanaging my cities to get as much commerce as possible.

So I ask you - those that actually managed to stay ahead in tech in this game.. How on earth did you do it?

 

[The Moose]

So I ask you - those that actually managed to stay ahead in tech in this game.. How on earth did you do it?

I was just lucky. It seems that I always researched a tech that the AI wasn't (Modern Age: 18 turns!!!). I then sold it around getting all other available techs plus loads of cash which in the end I used to steal 2 technologies the safe way (3500 gold) and finish the space race ahead of the Ottomans who had 9 parts already finished.....but were at war with Carthage

 

[solenoozerec]

I will not be submitting this game as I was totally overrun by India.
My problem? Tech!
How on earth do you manage to stay ahead in tech in games as hard as this one?
I usualy play my games on harder leves like Deity, but I gave up on tech and wonders a long time ago. Basicly, I turn the tax-slider to 0% science and trade for techs as soon as I can afford them. Still, by the time I reach the middle ages the AI is often finished with it.

After giving up on this game, I have re-played it several times to see if I can find out what I'm doing wrong. I've tried several strategies without any luck. When abandoning all other "usefull" techs to try for the republic slingshot, the AI still gets philosophy way ahead of me - even when micromanaging my cities to get as much commerce as possible.

So I ask you - those that actually managed to stay ahead in tech in this game.. How on earth did you do it?

I also lost this game, but I submitted it (I want to compete for the lowest score). But I was leading in tech before MA and in the beginning of MA. That was simple. Research writing on minimum and then philosophy on maximum. But most important build curraghs and explore. Get one tech from one civ and sell it to others who haven't this tech. In this particular game, most of civs didn't know each other, but I new all of them. The trouble began when they get to know each other. But still, I was first who got feudalism (though it was free tech).
And I lost not because of tech, but simply because I started to trust Indians and become irresponsible about defense.

 

[zagnut]

Trade was certainly the key to the Ancient Age in this game. If you sent out Curraghs early then you met the other civs and could trade around all of the AA techs. That strategy went south when the other civs knew each other. The AI can research techs at this level much faster than you. I think you will find that the players who are successful in this game took on India and managed to control the continent at an early date.

At this point I am not one of them. I have fought one war with India and captured two cities, but then made peace when the War Elephants started coming. However, very soon the second wave of Byzantine Bandits will be invading India.

You can also slow down the tech race by declaring war on civs on the other continents and then allying with their neighbors. The two civs then fight with one another and it is very unlikely that the one you are at war with will send any units by sea to invade you. Even if they do it is invariably one or two units which you can quickly kill. The advantage of this is that an AI civ at war will reduce science to finance unit production. They will also switch to a less productive form of government. If you start a couple of these wars then you can dramatically slow down the AI ability to produce new techs.