Constitution Discussion : STARTING FRESH

[Strider]

Should we wait a bit to start playing the actual game? Absolutely! Not too long, or we won't be doing our part in addicting the people who sign up to CFC because Civ4 is their first game in the series.

Waiting to discuss it is a surer means of turning newcomers away than anything else I can think of.

Wanna keep people from leaving because they don't understand what's going on? Take a good look at this thread and do what I do. Every newcomer should be welcomed, every question answered. Don't wait until a structure is put around those answers. Don't wait for the greeting committee to be formed. We experienced DGers have an opportunity to grow our community.

Does this mean we shouldn't have a FAQ? Of course not, I'll be disappointed if one isn't started by tonight! (edit: it would have been helpful to read it myself before posting this ) If you know something which should be there, then put it there -- the editing and organization can wait, but we need to make the most of these exciting times!

Poets, Writers, Scribes -- pens at the ready, and CHARGE!

Edit: Oh, by the way... that FAQ thread in the main forum isn't an empty header thread, Chieftess posted the first version of the FAQ itself. Still, if you want to add content then let's get content added.

So your proposing that we stick our heads into a hole, before we manage to widen it enough for our whole body? For what reason, excitement? No thanks, I'll opt out of that one, I happen to like my facial features very much.

We handle forum organization, keep any game elements (or ideas) to ourselves for about two weeks. Then we start working on what the game should be like. Wait untill we got the god damn foundations before we start building the house.

Be Patient, finalize it, work out the bumps, takes everything one step at a time. Don't charge blindly into a spear.

 

[admiral-bell]

ministers should be outlined origionaly. all the positions should be decided beforehand. This will allow for easier elections

 

[ravensfire]

Should we wait a bit to start playing the actual game? Absolutely! Not too long, or we won't be doing our part in addicting the people who sign up to CFC because Civ4 is their first game in the series.

Agreed!

Hmm, let's see, just how fast could we start this?

Okay - blank slate. So, we go with a Governing Council the first term - 3 or 5 people that actually create the instructions. They determine how to organize themselves. DP Pool, so everyone has the chance to play that wants to.

The Council is responsible for creating more structure as needed.

We could start polls for game settings on Friday, and go from there.

For the ruleset, we go with a complete basic set - like the two section mentioned above, the stuff about playing the save, elections are once a month. Rules can be proposed by anyone, after discussion has petered out, a poll is put up. Simple majority for all rules.

We go with the absolute minimum, and pass rules as we need to. Heck, we'll figure the offices and such out as we go. We don't know enough to guess, so let's create as we play!

The best part is that inside of two weeks, DG4 is up and running. Can you imagine the fun of discovering a new game with everyone else? Of making mistakes, and working our way out of them? Of finding that old standard strategy really hurts you now? Of finding that new way that completely turns the game around? I can't wait!

Thoughts?

-- Ravensfire

 

[Chieftess]

I agree, also i think that somesort of constitutional convention take place. For example we elect 5 people to be founding fathers....

You've been talking to Strider, haven't you?

In other words, why don't we actually start as inarticluate caveman settlers and build our laws as we gain more knowledge of the game mechanics? Since many of us will be looking at a "brave new world" for the first time in years, this may our only chance to pursue such a concept.

This is what I've been trying to say all along, and you guys look at me like I'm nuts.

 

[Uncle_Cheesedog]

I've never done a Demogame before but might I suggest that we give some time to let people figure out what settings they like and what strategies work and which don't, then as somone suggested we vote on the game settings and a president. After that we could just play it by ear, mayors being elected after cities have been established, possibly even before. And the rest will be trial and error and we could add to or ajust the constitution if the need arises or we discover something we had previously not known.

Sorry if this is all been said before or wether it's even been done before, as I stated before, I've never done a Demogame before.

 

[DaveShack]

We handle forum organization, keep any game elements (or ideas) to ourselves for about two weeks. Then we start working on what the game should be like. Wait untill we got the god damn foundations before we start building the house.

The foundation is already laid. See this Citizens Forum, and the Government Forum, and the Polls Forum? That is the foundation. Or are you talking about something else?

If you have a specific proposal, please enlighten us.

Really, we do want to hear something positive.

 

[ravensfire]

Hmmm, we could poll this.

A: Jump headlong into the game with a basic structure and make things up as we go
B: Wait several weeks until we've played the game, then start on a full ruleset
C: Other
D: Rubber biscuits?

-- Ravensfire

 

[Strider]

The foundation is already laid. See this Citizens Forum, and the Government Forum, and the Polls Forum? That is the foundation. Or are you talking about something else?

Looks more like a forum than a foundation to me.

If you have a specific proposal, please enlighten us.

Really, we do want to hear something positive.

Simple enough, first two weeks of the game we get ourselves organized. We discuss/make decisions on the following aspects:

• Republic or Democracy?: Do we want to do this the old-fashion way, and just leave everyone open to propose/discuss ideas, or do we elect a body of law makers who take a general census of what the people want, and then handle the boring bits?
• Forum Layout: Do we want to use Stickied threads often? Do we want the registries? Is there anyway to quickly organize current discussions, that might actually work?
• Specify exactly what goes inside of each forum. The Polls forum speaks for itself, however both the Government and Citizens Forum are a bit iffy. Do we want EVERYTHING related to the government inside of the governments forum? Even discussions?
• Create a list of things we need to get the game started (Create Constitution(obvious) and anything else).
• After a Constition(s) has been created, how do we decide if the citizens accept it? 2/3rds majority? Simple Majority? Do we poll the entire constitution, or article by article?

The list can go on longer, but it's getting late and I'm tired. We have no idea what the hell the game is going to be like, as such, it's pointless and stupid to start discussing how were going to run it. We have the forums infront of us, we have knowaledge over what needs to be done to get a Demogame up and running, regardless of the game. Let's take it step-by-step, and do what we know.

 

[DaveShack]

Agreed!

Hmm, let's see, just how fast could we start this?

Well, we really do need some citizens who actually have the game first. Here's where I agree with Strider, maybe a week or two before the actual game starts. What I don't agree with is waiting even a day to talk about the core rules.

Okay - blank slate. So, we go with a Governing Council the first term - 3 or 5 people that actually create the instructions. They determine how to organize themselves. DP Pool, so everyone has the chance to play that wants to.

The Council is responsible for creating more structure as needed.

Hmm, I wonder why have a council at all? What if we just go with pure democracy? Sure, use the DP pool, but use some kind of randomizer so that brand new people have a chance.

We could start polls for game settings on Friday, and go from there.

Unfortunately we may still be clueless about the game itself at that point. Let the general public start pressuring for a start when they are ready -- it will still be early enough I'm sure.

For the ruleset, we go with a complete basic set - like the two section mentioned above, the stuff about playing the save, elections are once a month. Rules can be proposed by anyone, after discussion has petered out, a poll is put up. Simple majority for all rules.

We go with the absolute minimum, and pass rules as we need to. Heck, we'll figure the offices and such out as we go. We don't know enough to guess, so let's create as we play!

One more section on how to handle disputes and that might just be enough. I have an idea in mind for two levels of rules, how we behave "out of game" as one level, and how we make decisions "in the game" as the other part. Unfortunately there will be dissent about that, but repeating exactly the old structure is folly.

The best part is that inside of two weeks, DG4 is up and running. Can you imagine the fun of discovering a new game with everyone else? Of making mistakes, and working our way out of them? Of finding that old standard strategy really hurts you now? Of finding that new way that completely turns the game around? I can't wait!

The only question mark for me is the timing. Personally, as long as this boat anchor of a computer runs the program, I'm good to go in about 2 days. I don't want to disenfranchise too many people with an unreasonably aggressive timetable. Those who aren't going to have the game for weeks or months are unfortunate but shouldn't hold us up, but we should give the ones who will be getting it immediately a few more days.

 

[DaveShack]

Simple enough, first two weeks of the game we get ourselves organized. We discuss/make decisions on the following aspects:

• Republic or Democracy?: Do we want to do this the old-fashion way, and just leave everyone open to propose/discuss ideas, or do we elect a body of law makers who take a general census of what the people want, and then handle the boring bits?
• Forum Layout: Do we want to use Stickied threads often? Do we want the registries? Is there anyway to quickly organize current discussions, that might actually work?
• Specify exactly what goes inside of each forum. The Polls forum speaks for itself, however both the Government and Citizens Forum are a bit iffy. Do we want EVERYTHING related to the government inside of the governments forum? Even discussions?
• Create a list of things we need to get the game started (Create Constitution(obvious) and anything else).
• After a Constition(s) has been created, how do we decide if the citizens accept it? 2/3rds majority? Simple Majority? Do we poll the entire constitution, or article by article?

Thanks for clarifying. Sorry, I misunderstood your previous post which seemed to say we shouldn't even start talking about these things for a couple of weeks.

You will find that several of us are leaning towards launching in between 1 and 2 weeks. There is healty debate on how much to have specified before we start, and there are good and bad aspects for all the various positions.

My objective in starting this thread was to encourage everyone here to keep it friendly, let bygones be bygones, stop digging up old dirt, and start fresh.

 

[I am the Future]

I am new to the DemoGame so bare with me. I have read most of this thread(skimming some areas), and I haveread all of the basic info. But I like the Idea of jumping right in. The only problem with this is that many(includeing me) wont get it for a while(couple weeks). But I have an Idea for a small preamble.

We the citizens of CivFanatics Center setup this constitution for the seventh DemoGame of this forum, the first of Civilization IV. We devote this game to the progresion of unity among the forum, the free spread of ideas and opinions, and the evolution of the game of Civilization. This constitution is here for the purpose of preserveing the ideas of the DemoGame and preserveing order in the democracy.

just a rough draft

 

[Furiey]

Remember, people outside the US will not ge the game for a while yet, UK release date is the 4 November for example.

 

[RegentMan]

That's true. There are also some new modes to play Civ IV (such as co-op mode). Do we want to try that out?

 

[donsig]

Hmmm, we could poll this.

A: Jump headlong into the game with a basic structure and make things up as we go
B: Wait several weeks until we've played the game, then start on a full ruleset
C: Other
D: Rubber biscuits?

-- Ravensfire

Shame on you - you didn't include abstain!

I'm all for starting up in two weeks or so - say first or second week in November. I don't see the point in electing a few council members. I really don't like the idea of a few council members writing the ruleset. If we use the inarticulate cavemen analogy then we basically start out with a free for all. As someone wisely pointed out earlier the forums are there so we have a structure in place to play. What we need from the constitution are rules about who plays the save, when (how often) the save should be played and how what happened in the game play session should be recorded and presented in the forums.

 

[Dantius III]

Those who are saying that constitutional debates at this level, before the game comes out, are overwhelmed by the process of self-government. Those of us who aren't say this: of course we can start planning out the framework of the government now! There should not be anything holding back basic principles from being established, at the very least.

This will be my first demo game but I have caught up to speed with the process and the methods of play.

There must be revolutionary changes to the idea of the demogame constitution: with Civilization IV, the new government, to reflect the inexperience of the players, should be able to change to certain events rapidly, in order to better adjust it against unfamiliar developments.

One of the first changes I wish to propose: a king or queen, outside of the prime minister, acting as a figurehead or the spiritual leader of the nation. This person must be able to write competently and guide the spirit of the nation.

 

[ravensfire]

Shame on you - you didn't include abstain!

/em points at Rubber Biscuits!

I'm all for starting up in two weeks or so - say first or second week in November. I don't see the point in electing a few council members. I really don't like the idea of a few council members writing the ruleset. If we use the inarticulate cavemen analogy then we basically start out with a free for all. As someone wisely pointed out earlier the forums are there so we have a structure in place to play. What we need from the constitution are rules about who plays the save, when (how often) the save should be played and how what happened in the game play session should be recorded and presented in the forums.

The council idea was more to have a group of people to push discussions, to get things moving.

Hmm, assuming most people in Europe get their game around the 4th or so, that's the weekend to play. Shoot for discussions on game setting starting November 7th? Use the time in between to get this basic structure decided.

-- Ravensfire

 

[Noldodan]

Sounds good to me, Ravensfire. Say two weeks to discuss and poll settings, and start around the 21st?

 

[Donovan Zoi]

Sounds good to me, Ravensfire. Say two weeks to discuss and poll settings, and start around the 21st?

I'd like for elections to stay based on the calendar month, although now would be the time to discuss whether we are interested in turn-based terms. That said, I feel that the game should kick off on December 1st, with elections starting about a week or so beforehand.

DemoGame Note: The above is an example of things we can discuss now. Do you think we should set up separate threads for each separate topic?

Strider's list is a great place to start, and will give us something to do for the next week. What do you think?

 

[RoboPig]

One thing we've got to keep in mind is that Civ4 is an entirely new game, so now may be the best (if not only) time to use the "evolution method" of lawmaking.

In other words, why don't we actually start as inarticluate caveman settlers and build our laws as we gain more knowledge of the game mechanics? Since many of us will be looking at a "brave new world" for the first time in years, this may our only chance to pursue such a concept.

Of course there would need to be basic guidelines to address mishandling of the save etc, but starting things this way would allow us to begin the game faster.

well this is a democracy game. it wouldn't be democratic if we had a king/chief/emperor and we couldn't be represented. plus, the constitution would need to be changed every time we change are government policy

 

[Strider]

We could fully incorporate a systematic RPG into the game.

Hey! Give me a break, I'm an RPG fanatic. Hell, once Final Fantasy XII comes out, you guys won't see me for acouple months.