Nobody
Gangster
I say we start january 25th, first turn febuary1st. So many more of us will have it after chrissmas.
Constitution Discussion : STARTING FRESH
- Thread starter DaveShack
- Start date
Alphawolf
Basileus, Founding Father
We seriously need a poll for when to start, so I going to start one now in polls. Poll's open please go vote.
-the Wolf
-the Wolf
I am the Future
Oi Oi Oi !!!
This is the best Idea Yet. GroundHogs Day '06 the perfect way to remember the DemoNobody said:
irishlamma
Chieftain
should we make a bill of citizen's rights?RoboPig said:
Nobody
Gangster
I recon the way it should start is to have two documents, first the Fundamental Laws and the Second the Bill of rights.
Fundamental Laws:
our goverment will consist of a council of eight* elected Advisors one representing each of the ingame adviosrs (foreign affairs, military,culture, domestic, trade, science, religion and civics) this council would make the decisions on all aspects of the game and A president (or other name) would play the game during a online turnchat or offline** following the instructions of council.
On top of this a judicary made up of 3 judges to decide matters of law. mainly disputs over who does what according to our laws. all of these people would be elected at the start of each term.
This would be very simple leaving the little issues to ammendments to make the goverment work more effeinctly. of course it wouldnt have the detail of the civ3demogame, more like the orginalciv3 demogame simple constitution. These fundamental Laws would be replaced by a full fledged constitution eventually or it could evolve into one. Notice no governors, they would be added when we grow to big for the domestic leader to control. Although this would seem like alot of power to the council and president, hopefully cooperation and working with the people would make it work rather than 8 Seperate departments one council working together.
the Bill of Rights would state all the freddoms the citizens have, how you become a citizen, how the laws are moddifed and a clear statment that Democracy and goodwill are the most important things in the game. Also the bill of rights would be unchangeable as it wouldnt specific how the game is played just the rights of the citizens.
The bill would be symbolic and represent our nation like a flag or athenem.
Fundamental Laws:
our goverment will consist of a council of eight* elected Advisors one representing each of the ingame adviosrs (foreign affairs, military,culture, domestic, trade, science, religion and civics) this council would make the decisions on all aspects of the game and A president (or other name) would play the game during a online turnchat or offline** following the instructions of council.
On top of this a judicary made up of 3 judges to decide matters of law. mainly disputs over who does what according to our laws. all of these people would be elected at the start of each term.
This would be very simple leaving the little issues to ammendments to make the goverment work more effeinctly. of course it wouldnt have the detail of the civ3demogame, more like the orginalciv3 demogame simple constitution. These fundamental Laws would be replaced by a full fledged constitution eventually or it could evolve into one. Notice no governors, they would be added when we grow to big for the domestic leader to control. Although this would seem like alot of power to the council and president, hopefully cooperation and working with the people would make it work rather than 8 Seperate departments one council working together.
the Bill of Rights would state all the freddoms the citizens have, how you become a citizen, how the laws are moddifed and a clear statment that Democracy and goodwill are the most important things in the game. Also the bill of rights would be unchangeable as it wouldnt specific how the game is played just the rights of the citizens.
The bill would be symbolic and represent our nation like a flag or athenem.
I am the Future
Oi Oi Oi !!!
The bill of rights should still be given the opportunity to have amendments made on it, to keep loopholes from being problematic, additions for new ideas, etc.
I like the idea of starting with simple fundamental laws and then haveing it evolve into something more fitting for Civ 4. I know that I am preaty much restateing what Nobody said, but I just wanted to show support.
I like the idea of starting with simple fundamental laws and then haveing it evolve into something more fitting for Civ 4. I know that I am preaty much restateing what Nobody said, but I just wanted to show support.
Nobody
Gangster
Hey is your name from what says in command in concur
uubry
Deamon Deacon
I Am The Future's name. And I agree that a Bill of Rights (motto?) and Fudumental Laws would be a good idea to start.
I am a newcomer to Democracy games - one of many. As I see it you do need a framework in place before starting the game.
This framework includes the forum (which has already been started) and at least a basic set of rules (Constitution).
To me it would seem appropriate to take the previous Civ3 constitutions as the frame work for Civ4. Rewording it as appropriate from the experience gained from its use.
At the moments the discussions are interesting but do not seem to be getting us anywhere.
So what I propose, as has already mentioned.
1. We set up a committee of 5 people who are willing to draft a basic constitution..
2. Set up a thread asking for vollenteers to do this work - set a deadline for applications. One week from now say.
People can nominate themselves or someone else who they consider suitable. A reason why they should be considered should be given.
If someone is nominated by another and they do not have the time etc to participate in the initial committee they can always post a declining message.
3. Then set up a poll so the citizens can vote for their preferred choice. Deadline of one week (or what ever is the normal time limit) for voting. The top 5 become the steering committee.
4. The only purpose of the committee is to provide a basic draft constitution based on previous ones. It is not the government.
So in three weeks time (mid November) we have a committee. There is nothing to stop discussions, proposals etc. set taking place while this is formed.
The committes deadline is to have a draft constitution in place by say early January. (7 weeks, allows them to play the game and enjoy christmas.) During this period they can publish parts of the constitution for debate and approval.
In mid January we can then start the game with at least something in place.
During January we can also start electing government posts.
As the game progress we ammend the constition accordingly.
The above will at least be a starting point and will provide some cohesian to the whole game for newcomers (this includes me.). Previous civ3 players have a grasp of what it is all about - newcomers don't and may be put of if there is nothing in place at the start to relate too.
Just my 2d/2c etc.
This framework includes the forum (which has already been started) and at least a basic set of rules (Constitution).
To me it would seem appropriate to take the previous Civ3 constitutions as the frame work for Civ4. Rewording it as appropriate from the experience gained from its use.
At the moments the discussions are interesting but do not seem to be getting us anywhere.
So what I propose, as has already mentioned.
1. We set up a committee of 5 people who are willing to draft a basic constitution..
2. Set up a thread asking for vollenteers to do this work - set a deadline for applications. One week from now say.
People can nominate themselves or someone else who they consider suitable. A reason why they should be considered should be given.
If someone is nominated by another and they do not have the time etc to participate in the initial committee they can always post a declining message.
3. Then set up a poll so the citizens can vote for their preferred choice. Deadline of one week (or what ever is the normal time limit) for voting. The top 5 become the steering committee.
4. The only purpose of the committee is to provide a basic draft constitution based on previous ones. It is not the government.
So in three weeks time (mid November) we have a committee. There is nothing to stop discussions, proposals etc. set taking place while this is formed.
The committes deadline is to have a draft constitution in place by say early January. (7 weeks, allows them to play the game and enjoy christmas.) During this period they can publish parts of the constitution for debate and approval.
In mid January we can then start the game with at least something in place.
During January we can also start electing government posts.
As the game progress we ammend the constition accordingly.
The above will at least be a starting point and will provide some cohesian to the whole game for newcomers (this includes me.). Previous civ3 players have a grasp of what it is all about - newcomers don't and may be put of if there is nothing in place at the start to relate too.
Just my 2d/2c etc.
I am the Future
Oi Oi Oi !!!
Nope my name is not from camand and Concour it is from my e-Mail imthefuture@gmail.com
The bill of rights is going to give the right of the citizens correct? If so then it would be easy to make befor everyone has played civ 4, and then amend it as needed.
An idea would be to list 20 thing that we think could be put in the bill of rights, make a poll and then take every option that get 50*% of the votes, maybe tell people to vote for 10*. Or if 50*% isnt met for any, then we take the top 10* amounts.
The bill of rights is going to give the right of the citizens correct? If so then it would be easy to make befor everyone has played civ 4, and then amend it as needed.
An idea would be to list 20 thing that we think could be put in the bill of rights, make a poll and then take every option that get 50*% of the votes, maybe tell people to vote for 10*. Or if 50*% isnt met for any, then we take the top 10* amounts.
Three big problems with the rules committee aproach:
- There could be someone left out who would make trouble on the basis of not being included.
- It pretty much rules out the idea that newcomers could have much influence, given the predilection for popularity based voting.
- The committee's approach could end up being unpopular.
Strider
In Retrospect
- Joined
- Jan 7, 2002
- Messages
- 8,984
A Bill of Rights is not needed, all of the rights can be easily stuck into a single paragraph (like it was in past DG's) and put into the Constitution. I believe that was one of the few laws that stayed the same throughout DG history also. It's not likely to be effected by Civ4, and it worked excellently in the past.
I like Harrier's method, we need someone (a mod) or a group of people (citizens) to actually get anything done inside of the pre-game. Otherwise, we have people posting threads far to early, among many other things.
However, to make the entire thing "more democratic." I say we elect two sets of five, the first set is charged with drafting the constitution, and then proposing it to the citizenry. The second set is charged with revising the above constitution, based on the citizens comments on the draft.
The first group will also be charged with starting discussions on the basic organization, etc. Then the second group will handle the game settings, etc. I'll make a list of everything each group will do if people take to this idea well.
This has several advantages, first off it makes everything organized and fairly efficient. Second, if the first set of five drafts something (or make other decisions that the majority of the citizenry dislikes), then the citizenry can just elect new people to the group later. If the citizenry likes what they've done, then it's a good chance there be voted in to do it again.
I like Harrier's method, we need someone (a mod) or a group of people (citizens) to actually get anything done inside of the pre-game. Otherwise, we have people posting threads far to early, among many other things.
However, to make the entire thing "more democratic." I say we elect two sets of five, the first set is charged with drafting the constitution, and then proposing it to the citizenry. The second set is charged with revising the above constitution, based on the citizens comments on the draft.
The first group will also be charged with starting discussions on the basic organization, etc. Then the second group will handle the game settings, etc. I'll make a list of everything each group will do if people take to this idea well.
This has several advantages, first off it makes everything organized and fairly efficient. Second, if the first set of five drafts something (or make other decisions that the majority of the citizenry dislikes), then the citizenry can just elect new people to the group later. If the citizenry likes what they've done, then it's a good chance there be voted in to do it again.
ruff_hi
Live 4ever! Or die trying
I am the Future said:
We the citizens of CivFanatics Center setup this constitution for the seventh DemoGame of this forum, the first of Civilization IV. We devote this game to the progresion of unity among the forum, the free spread of ideas and opinions, and the evolution of the game of Civilization. This constitution is here for the purpose of preserveing the ideas of the DemoGame and preserveing order in the democracy.
Firstly, a rank newbie re demogames here. However, I like this - it gives the overall driving reason for such a beast as the demogame to exist. I would work on the wording a bit ...
"...devote this game to the expansion of the CIV IV community ..."
Also, is the use of the word "democracy" here to represent US style democracy or just a continued play on the word demo*?
I also saw that someone said you couldn't have a king / queen in a democracy - I know a number of countries that have been doing that for ages (Australia for one). True, the only real powers that the king / queen has is to dismiss the installed Government and hold an election. Not that I am suggesting we have a monarch.
Finally, I would add my voice to starting play early so that we can learn about CIV IV soonest. How about a DG0 (IV) which is acknowledged as a trial version right from the get go.
ruff_hi
Live 4ever! Or die trying
DaveShack said:
Sorry - should have added this to the last post - what is the DP Pool? I'm guessing that peoples votes get weighed by the number of posts they have to this forum.
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