Constitutional Amendment Proposal Article X

[ravensfire]

MOTH

Exactly, more clarity is needed for future Judicary members interpreting the same laws, so similar confusions do not occur.

Provo - you keep bringing up this "confusion" - care to elaborate? Last time I checked, all three members of the Judiciary came up with the same viewpoint.

This proposal is not needed. The current process worked. I still have not seen a good reason for any change except for the one DS suggested to eliminate the consul confirmation of a mid-term VP and replace it with an option confirmation poll.

-- Ravensfire

 

[Ashburnham]

While I fundamentally agree with that Provolution is trying to do, I can't help but point to the recent JR over Donsig's appointment. That Review clearly showed that all nominee and appointees have to be citizens for their election/appointment to be valid. The constant usage of "citizen" throughout the Constitution and CoL is all the reassurance we need that all officials have to be registered citizens.

I also disagree with forcing deputies to post on the forums within 48 hours of their appointment. The CoL clearly states that any citizen unhappy with an appointment may create a Confirmation Poll to press the issue. If this is not done, the only conclusion is that people are happy with the deputy, thus making this 48 hour posting requirement unnecessary.

The third proposal Provolution gives involves Consul Votes, a process I am strongly against. So, I'll refrain from posting my opinions on it.

In conclusion, I'm not against the proposal. I agree with all the issues Provolution is presenting. I just think that this amendment is unnecessary.

 

[Provolution]

Then we should make sure that absent elected appointees not posting within 3 days of the appointment in the CoC should automatically make the position vacant. We cannot have officials in the CoC just disappearing without notification of absence,and the Judiciary taking no action, we need some clause to handle that as well.
I have seen several times how fast replacement mechanisms have worked fast for controversial leaders, and slower for ones with good connections. We need a clause making the deadlines and so on equal.

 

[Black_Hole]

absent elected appointees

Which do you mean? elected, appointed, or both?
Appointed officials can be removed by there boss, so there shouldnt be a judiciary automatically removing them.

 

[blackheart]

Then we should make sure that absent elected appointees not posting within 3 days of the appointment in the CoC should automatically make the position vacant. We cannot have officials in the CoC just disappearing without notification of absence,and the Judiciary taking no action, we need some clause to handle that as well.
I have seen several times how fast replacement mechanisms have worked fast for controversial leaders, and slower for ones with good connections. We need a clause making the deadlines and so on equal.

Who has ever gotten removed in this DG? I thought we all agreed to keep past stuff from past DGs out of this one.

As for removal from positions, having it for elected positions is a must, but deputies are appointed, so the head of whichever consul or department can choose what they want to do.

 

[ravensfire]

I have seen several times how fast replacement mechanisms have worked fast for controversial leaders, and slower for ones with good connections.

Really? When? I don't think that's happened.

-- Ravensfire

 

[Provolution]

Fair enough, if the VP is not replaced in due time, we make it a Presidential responsibility in the future, and the legal responsibility for having the appointed VP rests there.

 

[blackheart]

Fair enough, if the VP is not replaced in due time, we make it a Presidential responsibility in the future, and the legal responsibility for having the appointed VP rests there.

It already is that way right now.

 

[Provolution]

Indeed, and this responsibility will be watched, as the rest, mine included.

 

[eyrei]

The previous thread containing this amendment proposal was closed due to certain political interests.

Moderator Action: 1 day for questioning moderator actions in public. Continue this and its just going to get worse. Eyrei.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[Provolution]

Apology and concession

Moderator, please close this thread down too.
I see no further interest in keeping on this discussion and I lost all motivation.

I officially concede defeat in this "debate" and want to congratulate the opponents for a well run campaign to stop this legal discussion.

Dear Mr Blackheart. I apologize my interest in saving the citizen registry as a key institute for the demogame and wish you the best in future sanctioned threadjacks, insults, flamings and so on, as your statements carry absolutely no consequences at all. Dear Mr. Ashburnham, I am sorry, I tried but I failed, and I lost all faith in the system, please feel free to continue the debate, but I cannot continue the debate on equal terms as you can see very well from the latest developments.

You will never see me post a legal discussion article again. Except for a couple already in process.

Finally, I want to kill away a couple of myths, misconceptions and outright lies as well as the very basis for the campaign on ruining my reputation.
I did not call for the Judicial Review or the Approval Poll, I was tasked to do it by the Chief Justice and the President. In order to preempt yet another historial falsification, I have added links and sources,

I have added sources in order to eliminate all historical falsifications thay may occur as a result of this thread.

The requested Judicial Review by Chief Justice Blackhole

POST 58
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showt...t=112988&page=3
"I would suggest someone file a JR over this matter"...

The requested Approvement Poll by President Daveshack

POST 69
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=112988&page=4&pp=20
Provolution, you had a better mechanism of challenging this appointment at your disposal. Just post an approval poll "do you approve of this appointment Y/N/A?", private, and 48 hour duration.

I take heavy self criticism for being that naive to listen to this advice as well as taking all the shots taken at the procedure. I am also perfectly content of being the official fall guy of this ordeal, as someone needs to project this.
I hope my language here is not too obscure, long winded and so on. I also do hope I conform to all the technical procedures in this post.

This will conclude the campaign for better lawmaking and I truly hope my political opponents are happy and satisfied with my political obliteration.


FYI. I am NOT a National Socialist (Nazi) or a member of Geheimlicher StaatsPolizei (GESTAPO), and I am amazed that no-one found that branding inappropriate. The preference of order to chaos should not be vilified.

Thank you.

P

 

[mad-bax]

It's a pity that such an important discussion has degenerated in this way.

In reading the articles concerned, it is clear that official govenment positions can only be filled by citizens. The reason we have a problem (I think) is that this statement is buried in a large body of text, with no defenition of what an official government position is or what a citizen is in that text (it is buried elsewhere).

There IS a problem. Otherwise this discussion would not have started and a nomination and subsequent election would not have been held. In my view what is needed is a clarification rather than a change to the constitution.

I would propose that there should be a definitions section in the constitution. Basically a jargon buster.

I would define who is elligible for an official position in a separate article at the top of the government section.

E.G.

Article ?? Government positions may be either elected or appointed depending on the position. Government positions in either category may only be held by citizens of the state. Only citizens of the state may be nominated for an elected position.

The words in bold would be listed in a bibliography appendix.

 

[Provolution]

Mad Bax, thank you sir.

 

[eyrei]

Apology and concession

Moderator, please close this thread down too.
I see no further interest in keeping on this discussion and I lost all motivation.

I officially concede defeat in this "debate" and want to congratulate the opponents for a well run campaign to stop this legal discussion.

Dear Mr Blackheart. I apologize my interest in saving the citizen registry as a key institute for the demogame and wish you the best in future sanctioned threadjacks, insults, flamings and so on, as your statements carry absolutely no consequences at all. Dear Mr. Ashburnham, I am sorry, I tried but I failed, and I lost all faith in the system, please feel free to continue the debate, but I cannot continue the debate on equal terms as you can see very well from the latest developments.

You will never see me post a legal discussion article again. Except for a couple already in process.

Finally, I want to kill away a couple of myths, misconceptions and outright lies as well as the very basis for the campaign on ruining my reputation.
I did not call for the Judicial Review or the Approval Poll, I was tasked to do it by the Chief Justice and the President. In order to preempt yet another historial falsification, I have added links and sources,

I have added sources in order to eliminate all historical falsifications thay may occur as a result of this thread.

The requested Judicial Review by Chief Justice Blackhole

POST 58
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showt...t=112988&page=3
"I would suggest someone file a JR over this matter"...

The requested Approvement Poll by President Daveshack

POST 69
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=112988&page=4&pp=20
Provolution, you had a better mechanism of challenging this appointment at your disposal. Just post an approval poll "do you approve of this appointment Y/N/A?", private, and 48 hour duration.

I take heavy self criticism for being that naive to listen to this advice as well as taking all the shots taken at the procedure. I am also perfectly content of being the official fall guy of this ordeal, as someone needs to project this.
I hope my language here is not too obscure, long winded and so on. I also do hope I conform to all the technical procedures in this post.

This will conclude the campaign for better lawmaking and I truly hope my political opponents are happy and satisfied with my political obliteration.


FYI. I am NOT a National Socialist (Nazi) or a member of Geheimlicher StaatsPolizei (GESTAPO), and I am amazed that no-one found that branding inappropriate. The preference of order to chaos should not be vilified.

Thank you.

P

Moderator Action: Apparently 1 day was too lenient of a sentence. 3 more since you didn't get the point the first time. Eyrei.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[Provolution]

Moderator

Please close down this thread. I started a new thread based on citizens input in this thread in improving on the Constitutional Article A.