Constitutional Discussion: Important Aspects to Cover

[Ginger_Ale]

I was brainstorming key things we need. I made a list, so if you have any others, please post and I'll edit this thread -- if we can have in say, 1 week, a pretty succinct list of important parts of the demogame to discuss/poll, it will make the actually writing of the constitution pretty easy.

(words with an apostraphe after them are defined at the bottom)

* Playing the Save:

Turnchats vs. Turns Per Day​

Naming Units and Cities​

Dos and Do Nots for Playing the Save​

* Nominations/Elections:

Political Parties?​

Time vs. Turn-Based​

Public vs. Private Poll​

* Officials / Leaders:

Designated Player (DP) Pool*​

Based on Civ4's Advisors vs. New Ones​

Determine Roles for Each Official​

Deputy Workings: Runner Up vs. Chosen​

Appointed Positions​

Filling Vacant/Abandoned Positions​

* Government Structure:

Executive, Legislative, Judicial? vs. Something New? (define who goes in each branch)​

A Senate?*​

* Judicial Matters

Keep Same Positions (CJ, JA, PD?)*​

Work Out Matters on Amending Constitution​

Determine Process for JRs and CCs*​

* Standards:

Polling / Discussion Standards to keep Discussions / Polls orderly?​

Public vs. Private Polls​

Information Movement (make officials keep up to date info in their term thread in the Government Forum)​

Layout of the Constitution​

* Citizens

Citizen Rights​

Citizen Groups​

Political Parties?​

Census​

Define Will of the People (WOTP)​

Definitions:
* DP Pool: This was started in DG7. Each month, along with elections, there would be nominations/multiple choice elections for DPs (they play the save out) - you could vote for all of them, none, or any number of them. It got a lot of people who wouldn't have otherwised been a DP a chance to experience it.

* Senate: In earlier demogames, and DG7, there was a senate - a group of governors (people in charge of provinces, or groups of cities) would come together and make decisions involving war, mobilization, and previously in other DGs budget matters.

* CJ, JA, PD: These are acronyms for Chief Justice, Judge Advocate, and Public Defender, the three people in the Judiciary Branch in previous demogames.

* JRs and CCs: Judicial Reviews (an investigation into the laws to clarify something) and Citizen Complaints (a complaint by one citizen against another for breaking the rules)

If you don't understand something I wrote here, please ask!

This is not so much of discuss the options as it is list them -- we will discuss them later.

 

[Strider]

Several things missing:

• Citizen Rights
• Appointed Poistions
• Elections
• Turnchat Workings
• Judicial Procedures (coded or not)
• Citizen Groups
• Amending the Constitution
• Layout of the Constitution
• The census
• Define Will Of The People
• Vacant Poistions (or abandoned poistions)
• Polling Standards
• City/Unit Naming
• Play of the Save (the do nots mostly)

 

[Ginger_Ale]

Elections? Don't I have those covered? They depend on whether we want turn based or month based elections.

Turnchat workings will depend on if we do a couple of turns / day or turchats.

I have amending the constitution there too. I also have polling standards there.

What does 'coded or not' for Judicial Procedures mean?

 

[Armed_Maniac]

Political Parties?​

And if any kind of restriction is put on them, there should be a clear defenition of what is, and what is not a political party. Same thing goes for what is, and what is not acceptable.

 

[uubry]

I know that alphawolf layed out a rather effective government frame in another post, but I can't remember which one.

 

[Armed_Maniac]

I know that alphawolf layed out a rather effective government frame in another post, but I can't remember which one.

(deleted original message)

Crap i'm an idiot... I know what you mean now! The big complicated thing with thousands of posts! Man, i remembered i wanted to read that once i got some sleep... i'm such an idiot...

 

[I am the Future]

Indeed, The inlightened imperialist party... and i just posted mine... the manifesto is kind of longer

If these are for your parties then I do NOT want them to have anything to do with the initial creation of the Constituion. This honestly would be the only problem with parties, especially early on. How would you like it if MOO decided to sneak something in about haveing to have a road on every cow in out territory within 20 turns?

Thiug I think he was talking about the GOv. layout in a different thread, cant find it now.

 

[Armed_Maniac]

If these are for your parties then I do NOT want them to have anything to do with the initial creation of the Constituion. This honestly would be the only problem with parties, especially early on. How would you like it if MOO decided to sneak something in about haveing to have a road on every cow in out territory within 20 turns?

Thiug I think he was talking about the GOv. layout in a different thread, cant find it now.

Agreed then, and i can retire myself from the constitution brainstorm (edit: remembered term). I'm just giving opinions as a citizen, not as a party leader. I do not want my word to count for anything more than a dude who joined a day ago, for as far as demogames go, i would have had as much experience.

Again, i'm not saying 'allow political parties', but i'm saying that it should be clear if a certain organization is allowed or not. And if it is not, i will remove my party to conform with the constitution.

Well, parties should not have to do anything about the creation of the constitution, but the constitution should adress the aspect of political parties.


PS: Just my opinion, but i think people should not elect for political parties (if they are not banned), but that it should be for political parties to push for their members to campaign for the positions...

 

[Armed_Maniac]

This was all based on a misunderstanding... crap, yeah, i know what he means by AWolf's system now, and it has nothing to do with parties... atleast i don't think it does... i'm about to check it out now...

 

[Armed_Maniac]

I know that alphawolf layed out a rather effective government frame in another post, but I can't remember which one.

Indeed, i just read it over... Seems to complicated and confusing when you're tired... But it's really 'simple', or atleast it's very similar to way things work in the real world. Any ways...

However, i'm not too sure how that will be handled in-game though... i guess it required the turnchat? Not that it makes much of a difference, but why does the president have control of the marine units?

All for your governor system

 

[Nobody]

* Citizen Rights
* Appointed Poistions
* Elections
* Turnchat Workings
* Judicial Procedures (coded or not)
* Citizen Groups
* Amending the Constitution
* Layout of the Constitution
* The census
* Define Will Of The People
* Vacant Poistions (or abandoned poistions)
* Polling Standards
* City/Unit Naming
* Play of the Save (the do nots mostly)

I have bolded the ones that i think we need, which ended up being most. But somethings i think would be better as lower level law. I mean polling standards and Citizens groups dont need to be in the Constitution. As far as the "will of the people" we don't need to write this line in the new laws. But really i never saw why it was to hard to understand, the will of the people means Do what a majority of the people want, or Follow the polls if no Poll follow what most people said in the dicussion.

 

[Strider]

Elections? Don't I have those covered? They depend on whether we want turn based or month based elections.

You don't have the election process, or anything else concerning elections listed.

Turnchat workings will depend on if we do a couple of turns / day or turchats.

Once again, that's the only aspect (other than the DP pool) of turnchats you have listed. There is a hell of alot more than how many turns we play. Closed chat? Open chat? No chat at all?

I have amending the constitution there too. I also have polling standards there.

You didn't when I posted.

What does 'coded or not' for Judicial Procedures mean?

IF they go into the constitution or not.

----------------

BTW, there is alot more that needs to be discussed than just the constitution. Any plans to actually start discussions on them?

 

[Ginger_Ale]

I did have amending the constitution and polling standards in the original post. I made these all in a .txt file before I posted, so if you want to see that for proof, PM me.

Of course there will be discussions - you think we would not discuss any of these? I'm not the only one you know, there are 4 others.

 

[DaveShack]

I think we should separate these aspects into two categories:

• Things that pertain to this and all future demogames general
• Things which are specific to an individual demogame specific

Taking Ginger_Ale's list as a starting point, here is how I would categorize them.

* Playing the Save: general
* Nominations/Elections: general
* Officials / Leaders: general, except as noted
Based on Civ4's Advisors vs. New Ones specific
Determine Roles for Each Official specific
* Government Structure: specific?
Executive, Legislative, Judicial? vs. Something New?
* Judicial Matters general
* Standards: general
* Citizens general

 

[DaveShack]

From Strider's list, same categorization of general vs specific.

• Citizen Rights general
• Appointed Poistions general
• Elections general
• Turnchat Workings general
• Judicial Procedures (coded or not) general
• Citizen Groups general
• Amending the Constitution general
• Layout of the Constitution general
• The census general
• Define Will Of The People general
• Vacant Poistions (or abandoned poistions) general
• Polling Standards general
• City/Unit Naming specific
• Play of the Save (the do nots mostly) general

 

[Alphawolf]

I know that alphawolf layed out a rather effective government frame in another post, but I can't remember which one.

I believe uubry is referring to this:

My idea of a possible Government
Keep in mind that I don't know if this is feasible, I am new to this "Demo Game"

EDITED: Impeachment except for Triunvirate removed.
I have based this idea on the American system of three branches of government: the Executive, the Legislative, and the Judiciary.

A) The Legislative Branch
I. The most important branch consists of all citizens of the Nation except those holding elected offices that term.
II. Only the Legislative may decide two things: Declare War/Make Peace/Alliance and a change in Taxes (the science/treasury meter) higher that 10% every 5 turns.
III. Also may bring an impeachment/no confidence vote against the big three (Triumvirate) at anytime.
IV. An impeachment will be held like this: any member of the Legislative branch may start a poll to ask for the impeachment of the Triumvirate (either all three leave office or none of them). This poll will be open 48 hours only, for the motion to carry at least 2/3 (67%) must have voted in favor and at least half of the number of citizens in the citizen registry must have voted. If the motion is carried another poll will be set up the same way and if in it impeachment wins the Triumvirate are removed from office.

B) The Executive Branch
I. This branch consists of the Triumvirate and any and all elected and appointed advisors.
Ia. The Triumvirate will consist of the President, Secretary of State, and the Minister of War.
Ib. The advisors will be any office that we the citizens deem necessary to have that is not included as part of the Triumvirate, the Judiciary, or a Gubernatorial office.
II. The Powers and Duties or the Triumvirate.
IIa. They shall work together as a group. If they have a problem they will work it out amongst themselves we do will not hear about.
IIb. The Powers and Duties of the President
1. The President is Grand Old Man and thus he has great influence but not that much power.
2. The President nominates the Secretary of State, Minister of War, and the Chief Justice of the Court
3. During the Turnchat the President may order the ending of the game for a poll vote, i.e.: war, peace, change in Tax, or any thing else he deems appropriate.
(33%) of the number of citizens in the citizen registry.
4. The President may ask the Legislature for a Declaration of WAR at anytime.
5. The units the President controls
5a. The President shall control all non military except for workers under the control of a Governor.
5b. The President shall control all Naval units.
6. The President shall be elected in a poll of all citizens, if the candidate with the most votes receives less that 1/3 (33%) of the votes a runoff will be held unless the winning candidate has 10% more votes that the candidate with the second highest number of votes. Said runoff will be between the two candidates with the highest number of votes.
6a. The nominations for President may not be self nominations.
7. The President shall have the entire power of the Triumvirate for the first turn.
IIc. The Powers and Duties of the Secretary of State
1. The Secretary of State shall have complete control of the Foreign policy of our nation with the exception of War/Peace/Alliance, trade/sell/buy of techs, and trade of cities.
1a. The Secretary of State needs the unanimous permission of the Triumvirate to take the following to a legislative vote: War/Peace/Alliance or the giving away of one of our Nation's cities.
1b. The Secretary of State needs the unanimous permission of the Triumvirate to accept a city or to trade/sell techs.
1c. The Secretary of State needs the permission of the President to buy techs or in any deal in which we loose more than 250 gold.
2. The nominations and election of The Secretary of State shall be held as follows:
2a. All nominations for Secretary of State will be self nominations.
2b. The President shall take at least 5 but no more that ten of self nominations and hold a poll for the next term's Secretary of State.
2c. The Secretary of State shall be elected in a poll of all citizens, if the candidate with the most votes receives less that 1/3 (33%) of the votes a runoff will be held unless the winning candidate has 10% more votes that the candidate with the second highest number of votes. Said runoff will be between the two candidates with the highest number of votes.
IId. The Powers and Duties of the Minister of War
1. The Minister of War shall have complete control of all military land units with the exception of garrisons under the control of Governors.
1a. The Minister of War may move any military land units anywhere in our territory, unclaimed territory, enemy territory, or allied territory.
A. Outside of our territory or enemy territory the Minister of War need the President's permission to move beyond a certain boundary of our borders.
1b. The Minister of War needs the unanimous permission of the Triumvirate to attack an enemy city
1c. The Minister of War my not attack a city or unit of a neutral or allied Civilization.
2. The Minister of War shall have complete control of all air units.
3. The Minister of War with unanimous permission of the Triumvirate may ask the legislature for a Declaration of WAR.
4. The nominations and election of the Minister of War shall be held as follows:
4a. All nominations for Minister of War will be self nominations.
4b. The President shall take at least 5 but no more that ten of self nominations and hold a poll for the next term's Minister of War.
4c. The Minister of War shall be elected in a poll of all citizens, if the candidate with the most votes receives less that 1/3 (33%) of the votes a runoff will be held unless the winning candidate has 10% more votes that the candidate with the second highest number of votes. Said runoff will be between the two candidates with the highest number of votes.

The Judiciary Branch
III. The Judiciary Branch will the known as The Court, it will consist of three Judges, a Chief Justice and two Associate Justices.
IIIa. The Powers and Duties of the Chief Justice
1. Whatever we decide them to be.
2. The nominations and election of the Chief Justice shall be held as follows:
2a. All nominations for Chief Justice will be self nominations.
2b. The President shall take at least 5 but no more that ten of self nominations and hold a poll for the next term's Chief Justice.
2c. The Chief Justice shall be elected in a poll of all citizens, if the candidate with the most votes receives less that 1/3 (33%) of the votes a runoff will be held unless the winning candidate has 10% more votes that the candidate with the second highest number of votes. Said runoff will be between the two candidates with the highest number of votes.
IIIb. The Powers and Duties of the Associate Justices
1. Whatever we decide them to be.
2. The nominations and elections for the Associate Justices shall be held as follows:
2a. Nominations for Associate Justices can be self nominations or some can nominate you.
2b. The Associate Justices shall be the two candidates with the highest number of votes.
IIIc. No Judge may be impeached.
IIId. For the first term there shall only be one judge and that shall be an Associate Justice.

Governors
IV. Governors are the elected officials that run cities
IVa. The Powers and Duties of the Governors.
1. The Governors may move any workers or garrison units assigned to them anywhere in there city's radius.
2. What ever other power we decide to give them
IVb. Governors shall be elected in whatever way we choose.
Ivc. Governors may not be impeached.

-the Wolf

 

[Ginger_Ale]

1. Usually we don't have someone write a whole constitution and then poll it -- we discuss seperate aspects and then write it. We usually go Discussion -> Writing, not the other way around. No harm in doing this, though.

2. The format is a bit hard to read and unorganized.

3. It is a bit informal.

4. "Governors may move any workers or garrison units assigned to them anywhere in there city's radious" -- what happens for captured workers? I think we've tried this and it gets a bit hectic -- the governors want all the workers. It's good to have a position that deals with workers (we've had a Director of Infrastructure (just workers), a Leader of Finance and Infrastructure (money control and workers), or we've had the President control them). If we have a position that deals with just workers, they can weigh all the suggestions and decide what is best for the nation, not just the city.

5. I don't like the impeaching part, you can just vote off people you don't like. And also, many of the citizens who sign up in the citizen registry will never come visit the DG again -- you won't get 1/2 the citizens to vote.

6. It explains all the people, but not really how the game works.


It is a good base, I guess, with the 3 branches, but needs to go more in depth.

 

[Strider]

Here is an example of a constitution from the Civ3 demogames (actually, I don't think it was ever used, but still it works for the purpose I have for it). Just for everyone has a general idea of what everyone else is thinking.

We, the people of [Insert Nation Name Here], in order to create an atmosphere of friendship and cooperation, establish this Constitution of our beloved country. We uphold the beliefs that each citizen must have a voice in the government and ruling of our country, that government itself is a construct of and servant to the people, that rules, regulations, and laws should be established to facilitate the active participation of the people and to make possible the dreams and desires of the citizens.

Article A. Governing Rules
Governing rules shall consist of these Articles of the Constitution, such amendments that shall follow and lower forms of law that may be implemented. No rule shall be valid that contradicts these Articles, excepting an amendment specifically tasked to do so.

Section 1. CivFanatics Forums
The constitution, laws and standards of Fanatica can never be contrary to the rules and regulations of the Civfanatics forums. Moderators may veto/correct any such items.

Article B. Citizen Rights
All Civfanatics Forum users who register in the Citizen Registry are citizens of Fanatica. Citizens have the right to assemble, the right to free movement, the right to free speech, the right to a fair trial, the right to representation, the right to demand satisfaction and the right to vote.

Section 1. Political Parties and Slate Voting
Political parties and slate voting are banned from the democracy game.

Section 2. Citizen Groups
A group of citizens, that unite for a single cause, excluding elections is known as a citizen group. Citizen groups are encouraged and follow the spirit of the game.

Article C. The Government
The government will consist of the Executive Branch, Legislative Branch and Judicial Branch. These branches are responsible for the management of the game.

Article D. The Executive Branch
The Executive Branch is headed by the President, the overall Leader of the land, and shall include a Council of Leaders, each of whom heads a department that is responsible for one major facet of the country. Any duties that are not given to a Leader is automatically assumed to be part of the Presidents duties, this includes management of the National Budget.

Section 1. Generals Office
The Generals Office is charged with management of all offensive and defensive units. They are also given the duty of tatical planning during war and the strategic planning of war. During times of both peace and war, the Generals Office is tasked with the management of the Nations Defense.

Section 2. Council of Culture
The Counselor of culture is charged with the movement and placement of settlers. They are also charged with the formation of boundaries and the monitoring of our culture levels. The building of wonders is also given to Council of Culture.

Section 3. Department of Foreign Affairs
Foreign Affairs is charged with the negotiation of treaties and all espionage related activities. They are also given the duty of exploration, and are given management over scouts and explorers. They are also charged with the management of all trade related activities.


Section 4. Office of Research and Development
The Office of Research and Development is given control over all worker related activities. They are also charged with our nations research and the domestic slider. The building of spaceship parts are also given to Research and Development.

Article E. The Legislative Branch
The Legislative Branch shall be made up of The House and the Mayors.

Section 1. The Mayors
A mayor is charged with the management and affairs of a single city. They are also charged with the defense and protection of there city. There duties include, but are not limited to: The rushing of improvements or units, the drafting of citizens, setting of build queues, and the allocation of special citizens (tax collectors, entertainers, etc.).

Section 2. The House
The house is formed by the citizenry, and is charged with the formation and passing of laws.

Article F. The Judicial Branch
The Judicial Branch will be formed of three Leaders and is tasked with verifying legality of legislation, interpreting rules, and determining when violations occur. Each also has a specific area of additional responsibility.

Section 1. The Chief Justice
The Chief Justice is the overall head of the Judiciary and can fill in for either lower position. The Chief Justice is responsible for maintaining the legal books of the country and the mechanics of Judicial Procedure.

Section 2. The Judge Advocate
The Judge Advocate functions in a role of prosecution and attorney to the state when allegations of rulebreaking have been made.

Section 3. The Public Defender
The Public Defendant functions in the roll of defense for any and all accused citizens.

Article G. The Census and amending the Constitution
The average of the number of votes cast in each of the most recent contested elections shall constitute an active census of citizens. The highest vote total of these elections shall constitute a full census (the Congress). A simple majority of congress or 2/3 majority of Yes votes must be achieved for an amendment to pass. An amendment must pass a Judicial Review and be open for discussion for 72 hours before a poll may be posted. The poll must remain open for 48 hours.

Article H. Will of the People
Elected officials must plan and act according to the will of the people.

Article I. Turnchats
All irreversible game actions must progress during a scheduled chat (AKA a turnchat), which is played by the Designated Player. The Designated Player of a turnchat is decided upon by the President. The Designated Player is responsible for scheduling his/her turnchat.

Section 1. Turnchat Instruction Thread
The next turnchat instruction thread must be stickied inside of the citizens forum. It will contain all instructions from the President and Council of leaders for the play of the save.

Section 2. Chat Logs and forbidden play of the save
Any game actions taken by the DP must be documented in a game play log (examples: Notes or chat log) and a summary at the end of the turnchat. Both must be made publicly available in a timely manner. A recent save of the game should be posted immediantly following the turnchat. The play of any turns, by any other person than the specified Designated player is strictly forbidden. However, a leader or mayor may carry out actions, that do not require the passing of a turn, with the Presidents pre-approval. These actions may include, but are not limited to: The setting of city queues, slider movements, initiation of trades, declarations of war, and research queues. Citizens may not initiate in any non-reversible actions.

Article J. The Election process
Elections shall decide who among the citizenry are trusted to manage the game. The President, Council of Leaders, Judiciary, and Mayors are all elected. Each of these poistions, excepting the Judiciary, shall have a deputy chosen by the winning citizen. The Election process shall be made up of Nominations, Debates, and the Elections themselves.

Section 1. The Election Office
The Election Office is appointed by the President and charged with the posting and carrying out of the election process (Nominations, Debates, and Election Polls).

Section 2. Nominations and Debates
Nominations shall be posted approximately 8 days before the end of the term, debates will last through the duration of the nominations. Nominations will be closed when the election polls start.

Section 3. Election Polls
Election Polls shall be posted approximately 4 days before the end of the term, and will be set to run for 3 days (72 hours). The candidate with the highest number of votes at the end of the 3 days is considered the winner. If two candidates tie, then a run-off poll, lasting 2 days (48 hours) is posted with just those two canidates.

Article K. Vacant Poistions
An official or Justice may declare themselves to be Absent for a period of time. This period may not exceed 1 week. During this time, the deputy or pro-tem will act with all power and duties of that office, surrendering them to the official or Justice when they return or at the end of the planned absence, whichever comes first. If this period exceeds one week, then the deputy or pro-term may keep the power and duties of the office, unless they decide to gie it up. Should an official fail to post in the DG forum for 3 days in a thread related to their area without prior notice, the Judiciary may declare that office Vacant.

Section 1. Judicial Absence's
If a Justice has not posted on any active Judicial matter for three days, the remaining Justices may declare the Justice Vacant. If all three Justices fail to post on any active Judicial matter for 3 days, the President may declare all Judicial offices Vacant, and immediately appoint a new Chief Justice.

 

[Ginger_Ale]

That's great - good place to work off of. Most of the categories we need are there - we just need to make the content that goes in it and change some stuff (ie; elections might not be conducted in the same way, or we might have different leaders, etc.).

 

[Swissempire]

I am a semi-noob, but i think that poltical parties should be allowed, because in my mind or perception they add fun and intrugie(SP?) to the game. Also i support Alphawolf's governer definition. Also, this may have been done before, or be to radical, but here's what i think should be done legislative/Senate wise.

I think that very citizien should pick a city to have there place of residence in. That citizien can only nominate/ vote for people who also have a place of residence in their city. The senate shall have no fewer than 15 senators in it at all times, and a city shall have as many senators as it ingame size(Except at the begginnig where the first city shall have 15 senators, but probally be size 1.) When a settler is sent, a certain amount of people can say they are with it and go. You can move from a city to a city, but you cannot vote there until the next election. So if you move 2 days before an election, you can't vote in that one, you need to wait for the next. I think this would be fair. Feel free to add anything and/or critize, i fine with it. It may be a stupid idea or totally wrong/unoriginal. I just thought of it off the top of my head, so it is probably flawed. Anyways that is my two sense.