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Continents

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by demidyad, Aug 3, 2016.

  1. demidyad

    demidyad Warlord

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    So why include them in the game?

    My whole criticism of this gameplay mechanic is that it's dumb and makes no sense. You're saying "Oh yeah? Well continents are dumb and make no sense so HA!" but you're not countering my argument.
     
  2. Barathor

    Barathor Emperor

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    So, this looks like it may be one source of Civ 6's "growing pains" before it fully matures via patches and expansions.

    Perhaps the whole term "continent" should be replaced with something else whenever it's referred to. Maybe "region" would be a little more intuitive; especially through the perspective of new players with no prior knowledge about the game, who will naturally look to the coastlines when they read "continent". But, then players would also have to know that they're static areas (I think the designated names help with that a bit).

    Also, regarding continents and plot assignments, will AI's expand properly within or outside their starting continent to work with their perks (I doubt they will)? They don't always land right in middle of their regional assignment.

    There are other things too. With a lot of emphasis on continent areas, will these "continents" all be somewhat normalized and balanced among each other? Also, as others have mentioned, is it really a good thing that the borders between continents are so blended together and jagged? I guess it would be pretty ugly if they were all rectangular areas, especially with the lens activated to display them. (Are there any screenshots of the continents lens activated? I haven't watched much of the new videos.)
     
  3. King Jason

    King Jason Fleece-bearer

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    No, your criticism this entire time has been stemming from the fact that you can be standing on one tile and be on one continent, and then cross onto a tile directly next to it and be on a different continent. You think this is dumb, but my response is sarcasm because that's how it works in real life. It's only dumb if you think the idea of continents is fundamentally stupid in the first place. Yet they exist, so their fair game to be added in terms of representation in a game that draws from the entirety of earth's history, science, and culture.

    This addition adds more depth to continental bonuses, not less. Tying the definition of what a continent is purely to landmass in civ has been the dumb call for the entirety of the series, not the other way around. With the old way, let's say in civ3 on an Earth Map, if you built a Pyramid in south africa. Hooray! you have a Granary in every city on your continent. This means all of the cities you build in Africa will get a granary, woo! Oh and also all of your cities in Europe, The middle east, SE Asia, and Greater Asia.

    So congratulations. Because you ended up anywhere in the eastern world, you're on one "continent". Conversely, if your civilization happens to be part of an archipelago - well too bad, each island is it's own continent.

    That is the system that doesn't make any sense. :rolleyes:
     
  4. demidyad

    demidyad Warlord

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    Thank you for letting me know what my own thoughts are, but if you'll permit me to disagree with you, I would meekly contend that in fact my criticism this entire time has been stemming from the fact that you can be standing on one tile and not get a gameplay bonus, and then cross onto a tile directly next to it and get a gameplay bonus. And that this is unrelated to the tiles themselves, and that the distinction between them is entirely arbitrary and requires the user clicking on to a special mode to even know that it's there, and that this is poor game design.
     
  5. happybjorn

    happybjorn Chieftain

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    To be fair there are actually two arguments against continents being made in the thread. One is gameplay related, one is UI related.

    The UI premise seems quite reasonable (to me anyway), which is basically that requiring another UI layer for it is lame. The solution likely isn't as simple adding a distinct hex border or terrain features (these might help, but not all the time, like with islands or while the map isn't explored). Even though it is lame, the continents filter might be as good a solution as any.

    I liked Joketa's gameplay argument about smaller maps and options, but I don't see how continents is much different from any of the other balance problems with extreme map sizes.
     
  6. King Jason

    King Jason Fleece-bearer

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    That's the first time that you've specifically voiced this complaint in this thread, only alluding to it in the initial post without returning to it once until now. This is entirely separate issue from the (seemingly) major complaint you've had thus far. Taking an issue with the U.I. of a mechanic is entirely different than taking issue with the mechanic itself.

    Saying, "Damn, they need a better way to identify continents so you know where your bonuses are in effect"

    is entirely different than saying, "It's stupid that the continental borders are arbitrary in such a way that bonuses can fall off as simply as a tile apart for seemingly no reason"

    With that, I'm done arguing with you. You don't like the mechanic. Oh well. :dunno:

    Moderator Action: Please focus on the topic of the thread instead of another poster.
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    Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

    The U.I. concern is valid - though I have a feeling that once we are actually playing a game and have been on a map for an hour, we'll - at the very least, become used the continents in our general vicinity.
     
  7. smartcanuck1988

    smartcanuck1988 Warlord

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    I like the continents idea but I dislike the forced arbitrary rule of 1 continent per 2 civs (even if it were to be renamed to "regions"). I feel it should be more a function of map size and not number of civs. I understand that some civs rely on local/foreign continents for their bonuses, but just like a naval civ not enjoying their bonus in a landlocked map, it should be up to the user how to setup the map and what civs to choose.

    I think the missing ingredient in all of this is climate. It'd be much better if there is clearly different climate, at least inter-region (with sea/ocean being a type of climate so the rule applies to all types of continental separation), to define where the continents start and end. In the OP screenshot, I understand the switch from Zealandia to Pannotia (grasslands to desert), but to the west of Pannotia there is still desert but belongs to Antarctica.

    It'd also be neat if the continents are named after their predominant climate, so Antarctica would mostly be a cold region for example.

    I have a feeling looking at the weird placement of continents is that it seems like the continents concept was layered on top of the map generator, rather than they created the map generator with the continents concept in mind to start with.
     
  8. demidyad

    demidyad Warlord

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    Dude, I get it. There is one of you in every forum. You come in here rolling your eyes and proclaiming how stupid everybody is, making line-by-line retorts without ever forming a cohesive argument of your own, or addressing the overall argument of anyone else, and then run off into the corner to congratulate yourself on how smart and snarky you are. I don't even know if you read the posts of mine you somewhat obsessively quoted back to me, the whole time I've been saying it's dumb for a gameplay mechanic to take place on one tile and not the other and you've burst through the wall yelling about how dumb continents are in the real world. I'm glad you decided to drop the argument :)

    Moderator Action: Please focus on the topic of the thread instead of another poster.
    Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889
     
  9. KrikkitTwo

    KrikkitTwo Immortal

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    Well the continents in "the real world" usually have some clear terrain freatures separating them....

    Africa, separated by water except at one tiny spot
    N/S america.... same

    Europe/India...separated by mountain range from Asia

    If you are crossing water/Isthmus or a mountain pass (or even a large desert if you put N Africa w Europe) then you should know to look for continent differences.
     
  10. LDiCesare

    LDiCesare Deity

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    I'm really interested in seeing how they did the map scripts. They say that there are tectonics plates in the scripts. To get decent mountains, I used from number of players to 1 + 2*number of players land plates, so you'd get some mountain ranges in my scripts.
    Obviously, real life is lower than that (around 10 plates).
    The question is how many continents should there be?
    Should this be an option in the map script?
    It would be easy to have less continents than the number defined in the script (arbitrarily glob together some of the continents - they may not have the same surface at all in the end but then Asia is bigger than Europe so I think it's ok). It would be a bit harder to get more (cutting them in two is ok but you may get weird results in terms of shapes if some continents had already convoluted coastlines to begin with).
    Still, I think it's quite a cool concept. I can seemyself toying with the continent lens a lot when making map script instead of actually playing the game.
     
  11. Staler87

    Staler87 Warlord

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    They could always make the number of continents a player option.
     
  12. Silverdawn

    Silverdawn Prince

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    BA turned it on in this one @ 8:48:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WwBvboUyFTA

    But it seemed like all the visible space was part of the "America" continent even though there were 3 civs. I didn't notice him saying whether he was playing the Continents or Pangaea mapscript but it seems like it might have been Continents.
     
  13. Lucius_

    Lucius_ King

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    He was on Pangaea. It does appear everything visible was the same continent. I wish Quill had turned on the continents lens because he was playing on the border of two different continents and would have been a great sample of what that looks like.
     
  14. qwerty25

    qwerty25 Prince

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    While I would like there to be some terrain features delimiting the boundaries of continents I can't think of any good candidates pertaining pangea-type continents. Using mountains for every continent borders would be overkill. Using rivers doesn't make much sense, as you would probably settle a city next to a river and use both sides of it.

    Idk, maybe some mountains in a dotted line fashion could show continent boundaries? And it kinda makes sense as tectonic plates hitting each other forcing the plates upward. Another idea would be having some canyon thing like rivers.
     
  15. Silverdawn

    Silverdawn Prince

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    Found an example @ 10:46:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t1VrQv4UO9U

    Europa is on the left in light blue and Mu is on the right with clear/green color. All the blue on the left is one continent--the two colors are due to the effect of the fog of war.

    continent_europa.jpg
    continent_mu.jpg
     
  16. LDiCesare

    LDiCesare Deity

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    Civ V has totally screwed all map scripts by making the maps gamey and dependent on the number of players and, worse, city-states. Civ VI may be more clever as city states have innate bonuses, so the luxury resources may not be hard-coded to appear in the city-states borders.
    Number of players is, by default, linked to map size, so it's a good approximation.

    A good idea for the developpers would be to provide each continent with its own art-style. For instance, give oak forests to Europa and palm-tree forests to Asia. Make sure there's some kind of difference for basic plains and prairies, use different kinds of mountains and hills, maybe just color shading, so that the distinction becomes clear without requiring use of the lenses.
    Of course, this would require a lot of graphics, as you'd need 4 sets for each terrain.
     
  17. stiiknafuulia

    stiiknafuulia King

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    I'm glad that I mostly play on tsl world maps... No wondering about continents and their borders for me. :D
     
  18. skyclad

    skyclad Prince

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    As long as they update the map scrip, so that it makes some sense with the continental divides (does not need to be huge, just at least make it along a small mountain chain, bay/peninsula, or at least river, then it will be amazing :)
     
  19. stealth_nsk

    stealth_nsk Deity

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    We've seen more than 10 continent names so far, probably round 15. Making each one with unique artstyle it's quite waster of time. Much better solution is to have limiter set of art styles and attach them to continents at random. It's even possible to reuse the same artstyle on the map between different continents as long as they don't share borders - they'll still help visualize continent borders without lenses.
     
  20. LDiCesare

    LDiCesare Deity

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    Yes, we don't need 10 different art styles. The theorem of 4 colors means you can always display a difference with 4 sets, hence what I wrote.
     

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