Corporate Maintenance Explained

[Kopernikus1979]

Kopernikus, if you switch to SP, your enemy will be the one experiencing the economic drain.

Is the AI doing this or a human player?

What is SP?

The AI is doing this.

 

[eric_]

What is SP?

State Property

The AI is doing this.

Well, that puts to rest the idea that the AI won't use corps as an aggressive economic weapon...

 

[DrJambo]

Oh, my bad, I didn't realize a concept was not understandable until encountered directly.

If I were not being clear about my not yet having the game from early on in this debate, I could maybe understand your beef. But, since I've been clear, you had the option of ignoring my comments. If you missed those posts where I've mentioned that, well, I'd appreciate the decency of you reading all my posts before commenting about them.

Ok, sorry for jumping down your throat.

I've repeatedly acknowledged that if this is true, it's a serious problem with implementation. Have you encountered them arbitrarily spamming themselves with corps? The Mansa example seems to be a theorized outcome, not an experienced one. My apologies if I'm misunderstanding you in that regard.

Yes, the Mansa example was from my last game.

My problem is not so much what the Corps do, not even so much the inflation either. I'm a human being who'll learn and adapt and can understand restrain. It's the overlaying feeling that corps in their present state are an AI killer, and once the exploits come more to the fore, well, you get the picture.

 

[DrJambo]

Well, that puts to rest the idea that the AI won't use corps as an aggressive economic weapon...

Are they using it as a 'weapon', or do they simply know that each corp gives the HQ +5 gpt and therefore it makes economic sense? There's a difference.

 

[eric_]

Sorry Homan, missed your response to me:

- Spreading it in moderation simply means that the huge cost of corporations later in the game is camouflaged by the many cities that don't run corporations. Its basically a smokescreen because paying an extra 100 for 1 city in a country of 13 cities won't be obvious.
This doesn't change the fundamental flaw that by the time inflation reaches a point, corporations aren't worth it.

But, if you have the HQ in an economic powerhouse, and you spread it to a small city (low maintenance, from what I understand, as it's population based...is that correct?) that needs the bonus, then you'd make a net gain in commerce, no?

- You must understand that if you're only going to spread corporations into a few cities, you're better off running SP/CS. This way you get yourself a few good GPs that you may have saved for many many turns [which I did to guarantee some corps]. And you get to research military techs instead of beelining for corporation techs. And also you don't have to worry about getting lots of resources - or getting open borders.
Think of it as opportunity cost: My friend may come to me and say: "I have this great business plan, we have to work very hard but I think we can make 3% profit per year, are you interested?"

Good points...but what if you're more interested in a space race or cultural victory? Now you have a way to spread production and culture around while drawing in money and slowing down your enemies economically, hurting their ability to mount a sizable invasion...

 

[Kopernikus1979]

State Property

That can't be the only thing, because if AI is spreading the corp once, I can't get it out of my city. A big game misconception.

 

[eric_]

Are they using it as a 'weapon', or do they simply know that each corp gives the HQ +5 gpt and therefore it makes economic sense? There's a difference.

True...

Ok, sorry for jumping down your throat.

It's all good! It's a valid point, for sure, I'm just not trying to hide where I stand is all . Mostly I'm really psyched to try this, and the strategic implications of corps strike me as rather broad and intriguing, so I expound .

Yes, the Mansa example was from my last game.

Ah...well, that seems like a problem if he's running himself in to the ground. Unless it's only on occasion...or if there's a strategy behind it, seeing as he's Spiritual and can flip between SP and other civics without penalty...

 

[homan1983]

A problem with the AI doesn't mean corps are broken. It means there is a problem with the AI.

Firaxis themselves said that the AI can use all the new features in BTS. Hence the AI is using them as they were intended.

This means its very likely that the actual problem is with the corps rather than the AI.

Sorry Homan, missed your response to me:
But, if you have the HQ in an economic powerhouse, and you spread it to a small city (low maintenance, from what I understand, as it's population based...is that correct?) that needs the bonus, then you'd make a net gain i commerce, no?

The biggest portion of the cost is linked to the number of resources consumed (hence effect provided). I actually had your idea as well; that I can make a profit or at least have a neutral net profit by using the HQ with wall street, in the screenshot I showed in fact, the HQ city is making well in excess of 1000 per turn, yet its STILL not enough to pay off the outgoings. What really scares me is that I can't imagine what the AIs without the HQ are doing at the time, since they must prolly be running at 100% tax with their country crippled and still losing money.

Even though I give the impression that the corporation is always crap to use, the reality is that for more than 60% of the time I have corporations, they are just brilliant! But that doesn't mean its perfect - suddenly they just break down.

Good points...but what if you're more interested in a space race or cultural victory? Now you have a way to spread production and culture around while drawing in money and slowing down your enemies economically, hurting their ability to mount a sizable invasion...

Cultural just needs 3 cities with the corps, and space race will always suffer the problem because they have to get literally to the end of the tech tree. Its also unfair that for 2000 you can completely destroy an enemy, thats what espionage is for and let me tell you it costs a hell of a lot more, for a hell of a lot less effect in espionage to hurt someone.

I also heard people say that inflation is linked to difficulty, I played my games exclusively monarch and perhaps thats one of the reasons that corporations were

I'm not saying this mechanic is well balanced (I really can't judge), but in my experience it is not as broken as you keep saying it is, because I've certainly had fun with them.

And here is my biggest gripe: I wish corporations were balanced all the way through, but at the beginning they are incredible and a HUGE plus +++ for you, then later in the game they are flat out broken (esp. on difficulties where inflation is high). I WISH that it was a sort of middle ground throughout the game. I just feel sorry for people who play towards the endgame becaue then the mechanic is completely broken whereas during the late industrial era its almost perfect.

 

[klokwerk]

In my game (monarch / normal speed / standard fractal), I founded Mining Inc and spread it to my smallest cities (those who had problems collecting hammers) because there the corp gives more than in the big city (it must have made something like +400 % hammers in these cities, allowing them to get much bigger instead of building granary in 30 turns...).

So in this city, even with the huge cost (which I still think is too high), it was a good idea to spread the corp, because the developed city quickly gave me much more money than before thanks to the corp. So corps CAN still be useful sometimes in some cities, but I still think they're too expensive.

I spread my corp to my vassals too, which made much money. It didn't penalize them too much because they got few resources. I used free trade at that time.

I spread the corp to my powerful neighbour the Romans too, but they founded Creative Constructions and started to spread it in my civ. They spread their corp in all of their cities (it could be a good choice - I don't know - since it gave culture and I was around them with more culture).

Then they started to replace my corp with their in my city (should have switched to mercantilism before they do that I guess), and spread it to my other cities too... I had to go back to 30 % science because of the costs, so I finally decided to switch to state property.

All in all, I'd say (it's only a first imrpession from several hours of play) corps are fun and are a fine addition, but corp maintenance should be lowered a bit, otherwise we'll rarely see free trade and much more often state property or mercantilism.

 

[eric_]

That can't be the only thing thing, because if AI is spreading the corp once, I can't get it out of my city. A big game misconception.

Yeah, the inability to remove it is annoying, I agree...

Of course, if you see an AI coming in with execs over and over, you can just close borders with them...

 

[Kopernikus1979]

Firaxis themselves said that the AI can use all the new features in BTS. Hence the AI is using them as they were intended. This means its very likely that the actual problem is with the corps rather than the AI.

That's it. I mean a subsidiary is producing something in another country and of course gets profit, but not to the costs of that country (in reality the foreign country gets taxes). So I would like to see corps as useful in the way the far you bring it to another foreign city the more money you get, but not of the costs of this foreign country. So the reason spreading corps is then still alive and we have religions which increase the relationship between same-religion-countries and corps which gets you money as result of good relationship (you have to have open borders to get to foreign cities).

 

[aelf]

Firaxis themselves said that the AI can use all the new features in BTS. Hence the AI is using them as they were intended.

This means its very likely that the actual problem is with the corps rather than the AI.

Firaxis also says that corporations can harm you. So which is the design intention?

 

[aelf]

All in all, I'd say (it's only a first imrpession from several hours of play) corps are fun and are a fine addition, but corp maintenance should be lowered a bit, otherwise we'll rarely see free trade and much more often state property or mercantilism.

A very sensible conclusion. I agree. The way some people want corporations to be will just make them too powerful. I think the issue is more with inflation that corps themselves.

 

[eric_]

Another possibility is that we'll see closed borders being used much more strategically...block a civ from spreading corps to you before they become a problem, allowing you to remain in free market.

 

[homan1983]

Firaxis also says that corporations can harm you. So which is the design intention?

Corporations CAN harm you I agree. I also stated in a previous post many ways in which they actually do harm you. However under the current model there is no way they cna benefit you beyond the year 1930 or so in monarch+ games.

[I'll try to find the post and edit here]

A very sensible conclusion. I agree. The way some people want corporations to be will just make them too powerful. I think the issue is more with inflation that corps themselves.

Please state where I said that corporations should cost nothing and provide 100s of hammers or food and I'll take it all back.

Now that you realize that perhaps you weren't originally 100% correct you're trying to save face by saying that I'm crazy and wanted corporations to be some sort of miracle "cure for cancer".

All I've ever said is that I want corporation's cost to be either fixed or very stable throughout the game.

I even said they can then lower or raise the cost to their liking.

 

[klokwerk]

Another possibility is that we'll see closed borders being used much more strategically...

That would have been the best decision in my game when the Roman executives started to appear : close my border with them AND stay in free trade. That way you can use your corp in the few cities where it's really useful AND spread it everywhere in the world AND earn maximum money with free trade.

It works until you have to close borders with too many critical countries (your main trade partners) because they founded other corps and could send their executives too. Then mercantilism (or state property) becomes better because you loose too much in trade otherwise...

 

[eric_]

It works until you have to close borders with too many critical countries

Well, that's another instance where we may find the system is flawed: if every civ starts flooding you with corps. Then you'd truly be forced to go to Merc or SP. However, I don't think borders need to be closed the moment an exec shows up, only if a third or a fourth or a fifth does.

Also, another alternative to closing borders or switching civics would be to spread a corp you founded to them to the extent necessary to offset costs of their increased presence in your cities. If you don't have a corp, well, now you have incentive to found one .

 

[aelf]

Corporations CAN harm you I agree. I also stated in a previous post many ways in which they actually do harm you. However under the current model there is no way they cna benefit you beyond the year 1930 or so in monarch+ games.

The funny thing is I did show how corps can still be beneficial in 1934 on Emperor and on a small map.

Please state where I said that corporations should cost nothing and provide 100s of hammers or food and I'll take it all back.

Did I mention you?

Now that you realize that perhaps you weren't originally 100% correct you're trying to save face by saying that I'm crazy and wanted corporations to be some sort of miracle "cure for cancer".

And what was my original stand? That corporations aren't broken? Well, they aren't. Inflation could be adjusted, but I'd still be fine and I'd still use corporations even if it isn't. Corporations are certainly good if you don't drag your game out.

All I've ever said is that I want corporation's cost to be either fixed or very stable throughout the game.

I even said they can then lower or raise the cost to their liking.

I disagree. I think inflation should be where they fix the issue. Either cap it or lower it. Corp payments must still increase overtime at an appropriate rate to prevent corps from becoming too powerful.

 

[eric_]

I disagree. I think inflation should be where they fix the issue. Either cap it or lower it.

Or just grade the curve a bit...

 

[homan1983]

The funny thing is I did show how corps can still be beneficial in 1934 on Emperor and on a small map.

Unfortunately you didn't show how its beneficial, you showed that its equivalent to an SP or slightly worst than SP in a SINGLE city, whereas SP+CS would have not only been equal/better in that single city, but would have been much better for the country as a whole.

I feel bad for you however, because you play emperor which is 1 more lvl than I usually play - and I heard someone say that inflation is dependant on difficulty, so I know that unless you end your game early, you'll be having the same troubles I will.