Corporate Maintenance Explained

[mrt144]

Maybe I missed something, but I've traded techs and resources without open borders on the diplomacy screen. Sure, I take a commerce hit on the foreign trade routes, but that may be a bigger hit if he could actually foist his money-grubber on me.
I doubt anyone would spread a corp who didn't own it, seems silly to profit one player in exchange for messing with another (if it is messing, the person you're attacking may like the exchange of money for benefits and paid for the privilege).
I just want to keep free market/environmentalism without fear somebody will make me pay through the nose.

the international trading stops i.e. trade routes iirc. I could be wrong though since im still in the infancy of playing BTS.

I propose that you should spread a corp you don't own, to anyone but yourself.

Imagine this if you will: someone spreads a corp you dont want and you dont own into your one cities. Take this as an opportunity to create as many execs as possible under mercantilism. this prevents a further spread of the corporation you don't want in your city while making the payments for the corp as small as possible. step two is sending all the execs you've created through whatever means and sending them back to the original civ that owns the corp. then you settle these execs anywhere and everywhere within the owner's territory. after that is completed go state property and create as many espionage points as possible. use spies to destroy courthouses in whatever city has a corp. this hurts them severely.

so if theyre still running free market then theyre screwed, if they go mercantilism they are totally screwed, and if they go state property they arent going to spread their corp any further and you can revert to whatever plan you had.

 

[mrt144]

But, as we've both pointed out, if you do that, you're shooting yourself in the foot. So why would you do it? I mean, sure, you might tank their economy, but they're not the only player on the board, and I suspect it takes quite a few resources to spam a foreign civ with corps.

dont these corps pay for themselves though? arent the resources negated by spreading them far and wide? or is that circular logic?

 

[mrt144]

by not using corps you can inflict more pain on people using them, for less resources, than trying to out benefit them from corps and using the same resources.

 

[OTAKUjbski]

WAD? (sorry, new one for me...)

Working as Designed/Intended?

Yes.

Just read that thread, Otaku...makes it seem like there was possibly a mistake in implementing the new inflation math, rather than an issue with anything else (like corp maintenance)...

Corporate Fees are calculated in a manner nearly identical as Distance Maintenance (there is a flat fee plus a distance fee multiplied by a population offset variable), so I think they are fine.

After looking at the posts from Ori and macsbug (linked to somewhere on this page), it appears Inflation is definitely the Corporate bane.

The jury is out on whether this is intentional.

My belief is that it is intentional but perhaps a little steep -- especially when you consider Roland's Deity comparison, which makes Corporations nearly impossible to manage if you find yourself in a similar situation.

Spoiler Aelf's Mining Co. Capital :

How about all that time before the late game when the first corporations become available? And how late is late?

Here are some screenshots from a game of mine:

I was paying 66 gold for 23 hammers in my capital. Do I think that that's a good investment? Looking at the list of recent wonders in the city, yes. And I'm researching Ecology so I believe this qualifies as late game. This is also on Emperor and I was playing on a small map. My research rate was not that bad, despite the fact that I was also paying quite a bit of distance maintenance since I was not running State Property.

A look at the economy overall:

Yes, inflation was a killer, but corporation payments weren't such a great deal. Of course, I didn't spread my corporation like crazy, only doing so in a few cities, but I did have a few Creative Constructions branches in captured cities (a full half of that cost is from them). As a factor of the overall cost, corporation payments were really quite manageable, even though this was late in the game. And the benefits were tangible.



Alright, smartie. That is one thing that looks like it needs some fixing. I was under the impression that State Property abolishes everything that has to do with corporations Or at least that was the intention.

 

[Nikis-Knight]

I just posted some screenshots in the other thread.



If you refer to the screenshots, I think the cost can be worth it. I don't see any other way I could gain 23 extra hammers (before multipliers) while maintaining all those specialists (23 extra hammers worth of workshops and watermills would decrease the city's food output by a large margin, even under State Property) without using a corporation. Settling a GE would give 3 extra hammers (before multipliers). Why not use him for Mining Inc., then?

Okay, I'll take a look. I'm happy to be proven wrong in my suspiciojns. Make sure you tell the difficulty and turn/year.

But I really doubt you actually setttle a GE in the Industrial age!

 

[seasnake]

To Mrt144

The cheapest and easiest way to hurt someone is to pound them until they vassalize, in my experience. Research the military techs and force the other techs as the "price for peace." That's been my quickest, most effective victories.
However, that gets old. It's fun to have multiple ways to win. I like fighting too much to get a diplomatic victory (I always go to war sooner than later) but like the idea of trying to dominate with corporations or espionage as an alternative.
Corporations may not be the most effective way to hurt someone, but I think it has the potential to be a lot of fun and it does make the main game interesting. Also, it seriously beefs up mercantilism, I never used it back in the day. Your civics, open border agreements, and resource trade just all got a lot more interesting, in addition to questions like which corp where?

 

[OTAKUjbski]

um .. double post somehow ...

 

[andrewlt]

Reading how corporations work, I have come to the conclusion that the best strategy is to found the HQ, never spread them in any of your cities and spread them as much as possible to as many AI cities as possible, preferably ones you won't be conquering later on.

It seems mercantilism should be the best civic to take advantage of corporations with a possible switch to state property later on once you have finished spamming the AI with your branches. Spies to switch them to environmentalism would bankrupt them so quickly. I think I'm going to start a game and try to exploit this as much as I can.

 

[eric_]

dont these corps pay for themselves though? arent the resources negated by spreading them far and wide? or is that circular logic?

Yeah, I think yours may be...

They pay for themselves if you have them in foreign economies, yes. If you flood another's market to the point that they switch to Merc or SP, you lose that cash flow. So you shouldn't flood a foreign economy if you found an HQ (unless you wanna tank 'em in the short term in advance of war, if, say, you know they're on the cusp of getting rifling. Or, maybe if they just researched rifling and are fixin to upgrade a bunch of units).

As for flooding others' markets with another civ's corp, that might tank the others' market, but the HQ holder is gonna get a HUGE boost (until those others go to Merc or SP anyway)...seems like a bad idea.

the best strategy is to found the HQ, never spread them in any of your cities and spread them as much as possible to as many AI cities as possible

Not if you want to keep earning money off them by avoiding their switching to SP...

The more I think about it, the more of a balancing act this seems to be.

Also, if suddenly another civ lands a corp in one of your cities, you have some incentive to found one yourself (so you have a corp HQ offsetting the 'invading' corp maintenance) or capture the HQ.

 

[mrt144]

Yeah, I think yours may be...

They pay for themselves if you have them in foreign economies, yes. If you flood another's market to the point that they switch to Merc or SP, you lose that cash flow. So you shouldn't flood a foreign economy if you found an HQ (unless you wanna tank 'em in the short term in advance of war, or maybe if they just researched rifling and are fixin to upgrade a bunch of units).

As for flooding others' markets with another civ's corp, that might tank the others' market, but the HQ holder is gonna get a HUGE boost (until those others go to Merc or SP anyway)...seems like a bad idea.



Not if you want to keep earning money off them by avoiding their switching to SP...

The more I think about it, the more of a balancing act this seems to be.

Also, if suddenly another civ lands a corp in one of your cities, you have some incentive to found one yourself (so you have a corp HQ offsetting the 'invading' corp maintenance) or capture the HQ.

eric, you still collect HQ income running state property. also at any time these other civs can go SP or Merc just to F with you. they should do it just to F with you too.

and as they exist now, the AI spreads them for you on their gold.

 

[jkp1187]

eric, you still collect HQ income running state property.

Now THAT makes *NO* sense. Talk about a broken system.... Only in Civilization do you go to State Property to make money!

 

[eric_]

eric, you still collect HQ income running state property.

Yeah, I never said the HQ holder should avoid SP, just that they should avoid pressuring the target into doing so by spamming them with corps.

Obviously I can't put these ideas to practice until I get it, but, I have a feeling if you're providing an oil-starved country with Standard Ethanol to an extent that doesn't crush their economy, their not gonna switch to SP or Merc.

 

[eric_]

Now THAT makes *NO* sense. Talk about a broken system.... Only in Civilization do you go to State Property to make money!

There and in China I'm pretty sure their government is making plenty of money these days.

 

[Raider]

I think the fact that a large portion of this discussion concerns how to keep corporations out of your cities (especially foreign ones) is sign enough that the mechanic is broken.

 

[Steiner-Davion]

Maybe I missed something, but I've traded techs and resources without open borders on the diplomacy screen. Sure, I take a commerce hit on the foreign trade routes, but that may be a bigger hit if he could actually foist his money-grubber on me.
I doubt anyone would spread a corp who didn't own it, seems silly to profit one player in exchange for messing with another (if it is messing, the person you're attacking may like the exchange of money for benefits and you paid for the privilege).
I just want to keep free market/environmentalism without fear somebody will make me pay through the nose. If I don't pay maintenance for corps not in my cities, free market won't hurt me if I don't have open borders with the founder.

Well in the game I just finished, the HRE, Egyptians, Native Americans, and Babylonia all were very busy spreading office of my Sid's Sushi Co. all around their empires, while I could not spread any of my other Corporations.

 

[jkp1187]

There and in China I'm pretty sure their government is making plenty of money these days.

You actually think China is running "State Property" today....?

 

[Big J Money]

A few questions to get folks thinking:

Why not blacklist AI who founds a corp? It might ruin your diplo plans, but this isn't Vanilla anymore.

Why not mention the MP implications of corps? I think it has a lot of potential. MP play counts for something as well.

Why assume the AI doesn't know what it's doing when it spams itself with a corp? Maybe they are religious and have the ability to rapid-switch their economy by changing civics. The AI in Civ has always been notorious for doing things that first appear to be unexplained.

Why is huge inflation such a bad thing? I can easily see someone building corps along with founding religions and other methods of winning the finan. game; totally dominating the end game, economically. The new inflation rate means you have to prepare for the future if you are running a high gross budget.
[Caveat: I admit this style of play couild be considered undesirable for new players; it is fairly arcane. I also admit that I don't play on the very high skill levels and that corp maintenance may be utterly broken on them. Maybe QA did not thoroughly test them on those levels.]

Just some thoughts.

=$= Big J Money =$=

 

[eric_]

You actually think China is running "State Property" today....?

Well, no

 

[OTAKUjbski]

Yeah, I think yours may be...

They pay for themselves if you have them in foreign economies, yes. If you flood another's market to the point that they switch to Merc or SP, you lose that cash flow. So you shouldn't flood a foreign economy if you found an HQ (unless you wanna tank 'em in the short term in advance of war, if, say, you know they're on the cusp of getting rifling. Or, maybe if they just researched rifling and are fixin to upgrade a bunch of units).

Corporations don't necessarily have to be spread abroad to be 'profitable'. Using Aelf's example, he was gaining 23 raw for a base -66 Corporate fee.

His city had a Courthouse with 160% inflation, so the fees were actually -33 * 2.60 Inflation = 85.8 .

IIRC, rushbuying costs 6 per raw (Wonder), so 23 * 6 = 138 (equivalent).

That means he's netting +52.5 by using Mining Co. in that city as compared to rushbuying his Wonder (Three Gorges Damn).

Having the HQ and/or spreading Mining Co. abroad simply becomes icing on the cake at that point.

As for flooding others' markets with another civ's corp, that might tank the others' market, but the HQ holder is gonna get a HUGE boost (until those others go to Merc or SP anyway)...seems like a bad idea.

Not if you want to keep earning money off them by avoiding their switching to SP...

The more I think about it, the more of a balancing act this seems to be.

Also, if suddenly another civ lands a corp in one of your cities, you have some incentive to found one yourself (so you have a corp HQ offsetting the 'invading' corp maintenance) or capture the HQ.

I believe Corporations are definitely a balancing act, which [to me] is a refreshing change of pace when compared to the mindlessness of religion-spamming.

If you build too many Corporate Offices domestically, then the Corporate Fees are likely to eventually outweigh your benefits -- forcing you to adopt State Property or Mercantalism.

If you build too many Corporate Offices abroad, then the Corporate Fees are likely to outweigh their benefits -- forcing them to adopt State Property or Mercantalism.

IMHO, this doesn't mean Corporate Mechanics are broken ... it simply means they are different and need to be utilized differently than we're used to with other mechanics.

 

[eric_]

Corporations don't necessarily have to be spread abroad to be 'profitable'. Using Aelf's example, he was gaining 23 raw for a base -66 Corporate fee.

Yeah, I was actually going to qualify that statement by saying I meant monetarily cover costs...I'm not good enough at the math to project profits after converting other factors to commerce.