Corruption really needs to be toned down

Hi I am new to the forum.

I was looking at the editor, and I think I might have come up with a solution to the corruption problem. I think corruption is accurate in the begining of the game. Imagine how slow information would travel across a continent. This would seriously hamper production. The problem in my opinon is the later stages of the game. Increases in technology makes for a more controlable bureaucracy, and as a result an increase in production. To reflect this you could edit certain improvements airports, harbors, and police stations to reduce corruption as well as perform there orginial fuctions. So in effect a city with an airport, harbor, and courthouse would reduce corruption as if there were 3 courthouses. I haven't tried this out, but it seems like it could work. I think it would make the game more playable and realistic. SO what do you all think? Could it work?
 
I believe you may be right about the 'Commercial' ability not affecting waste, although, I might be imagining things, but I think it did help out a noticable amount with corruption. Still, I think something needs to be done, a Courthouse needs to allow 2 shields/2 commerce under democracy at the very minimum. I can't help but speculate that something went awry during placetesting to let this happen, whatever formula they are using to acount for distance was probably never adequately tested after a certain range. Oh well, I'm sure this will be corrected in an upcoming patch. Also, the 'Technological Age of the Empire' probably factors in more than we've noticied. As a side note, have you noticied if the computer players experience the same effects?
 
I'm in the midst of my first game of Civ3... in frustration over this corruption problem I had to shut the game off and look online for help, and I found this list. It's nice to hear other experienced players are having the same concerns.

I'm playing on Chieftain to learn the differences from Civ2 and get familiar with the game. I'm in a Democracy and the people are happy but corruption and waste are rampant - in many cities all but 1 shield and 1 commerce unit are lost. Courthouses do very little to help. This isn't the "minimal" corruption a Democracy is supposed to provide.

I'm certainly up for a challenge (and am looking forward to playing on higher difficulty levels) but something just isn't right here. This needs to be fixed before I'll spend much more time playing.

Jon
 
I too have experienced this 'rampant corruption' problem.

However for me it wasn't too horrible.

First off, Standard sized Earth Map.
I played as the Persians (Industrious, Commercial)
I started off pretty much in Panama giving me good access to the Pacific and the Atlantic.

The only other civ on the map was the Chinese, I pushed them all the way back into South America. Building cities as I went. Reasearch, my first target was bronze working, then, straight to republic don't stop until I switch governments. Once I killed the last Chinese city off they respawned into some really horid spot up in North America, so I left them there.

I built up EVERYTHING. All of NA and SA. I put my forbidden Palace where North Dakota would be. I moved my capitol to the middle of South America. I completly solved corruption in the vast majority of my cities at that point. Then I went to war And captured all of England which was pretty much all of Russia east of the Urals. Then I took North Africa. Then South East Asia and South Africa. I just now took Australia. So how bad is corruption you ask! Well, it sucks a whole lot of booty. But i don't really care, all my core cities are doing fine, my captured countries I could car less about. They are doing better now that the debris from the strip bombing has cleared. I'm probably producing about four shields in cities with Courthouses and cultural improvements and large populations and access to a town with a harbor.

It sucks, but I can draft from the local populace so that I have a quick supply of Garrison units, and that's all the really matters.

I took three cities in Australia with the use of helicopters... Those things ROCK. 6 heli's loaded with Marines will knock down any weak tech inferior civ. The best unit people have going are knights and musketeers, while I bombard with battleships and Stealth Bombers, then proceed to rush in with a Army of Modern Armor back by air drops of Marines.
 
WELL IT SOUNDS LIKE MANY OF YOU SHARE MY FEELING
that corruption is way out of hand in Civ3, whether or not it's intentional. Switching to Republic or even Democracy seems to give almost no benefit, despite its significant costs, and as a result there's no clear way to ramp up the economy or knowledge production, nor to make peripheral cities useful contributors to the nation. In Civ2, you got a return on your investment when you made all the sacrifices necessary to switch to representative governments, and although the designers may have intended for players to be continually plagued by heavy corruption in Civ3, I find it makes the game slow and depressing.

SO HERE'S WHAT I DID:

I changed the rules in civ3mod.bic, adding the 'reduces corruption' flag to a number of buildings besides the courthouse. I reasoned that the sort of buildings that increase culture, particularly religious and educational institutions, would also be likely to reduce corruption. Indeed the sacred texts of most major religions, including Christianity and Islam, specifically address issues of corruption and fairness in business. And these Middle-Eastern religions are seen by some experts as having arisen, in part, to address the moral vaccum created by increasing international commerce.

Furthermore, in the world today, education levels map almost directly inverse to corruption levels throughout the world, with highly educated nations like Sweeden and Denmark experiencing the lowest corruption, while developing countries in Africa and Southeast Asia suffer from the highest.

So I added the 'reduces corruption' flag to the library, temple, university, cathedral, and research lab, as well as all the great wonders. I also added it to the police station, for obvious reasons. The courthouse remains useful because it also fights propaganda, but I reduced its price slightly to reflect its diminished relevance, but you'd be surprised how often you still want to build one.

IT WASN'T ENOUGH

So I did this, then went back to my moderate-sized democracy (13 cities) on a normal map, and found corruption to still be lingering around 30-40% of the economy (down from around 70%). I felt this was still too high for a highly educated (and quite religious!) democracy, so I went back and flagged the economic development buildings as well: marketplace and bank. This yielded corruption of around 10-15%, which I found acceptable. Although I haven't tested it in other government forms yet, corruption should go up an down appropriately, since I didn't alter the government/corruption settings.

SO WHAT'S IT LIKE?

It's great. I don't care what the developers' intentions were: this is better. It doesn't unbalance the game, since all civs get the same benefits, and all build these buildings anyway. But suddenly, it was as though the game came back to life! The pace picked up, my research sped up (though I didn't pull ahead), my economy kicked in -- it was like the brisk pace of Civ2 with all the added functionality, graphics and complexity of Civ3. Believe me, you owe it to yourself to play Civ3 this way.

If anyone's interested, I could post the mod file here on the 'completed mods' board, but it's also pretty easy to do this yourself. Have fun fighting corruption!

-Armor
 
Nice one, Armour!

Very clever-I will be trying this also!!!

Genius award, 1st class to you!:goodjob:
 
:enlighten

With all of these problems, especially corruption, has anyone thought of the novel idea of WRITING TO THE DESIGNERS about all this? I mean, if all of us were to have a massive writing campagne to Firaxis, Sid Meier or whomever don't you think we could get a response, some answers and maybe a patch quicker?? I'd like to ask our moderateors their opinions on this, but I believe we should make some sort of massive writing campagne to get our voices heard.



"...some people like that downhill stuff, they like it fast and breezy. Some people walk on the other side, they like it slow and easy.." John Denver
 
I still think corruption needs to be toned down, but I did discover something that helps immensely. Building your forbidden palace is more helpful than you could ever possibly imagine. Granted, I had to use my great leader to do it (The town building it wasted 10 of 12 shields to corruption) but once it was built I saw the benefits immediately. In a country that was generating revenue of around 400 it saved me 40 PER TURN. This was just for taxes, Since my science and luxuries rates were 40 and 30 respectively, this means overall it was reducing corruption by around 33%. Clearly, distance from the capital appears to be the highest factor in determining corruption rates, I wouldn't say form of government is very meaningful at all, at most democracy reduces corruption by 50% from despotism. Hard to say though, since my empire kept growing as I switched governments.

Anyway, corruption still needs to be toned down, but maybe not as much as I had originally thought. I definately agree with the preivous post however, all infastructure should help to fight corruption to a limited degree, also, the technological age as well as specific technologies should limit corruption levels throughout your empire.
 
I sent an e-mail regarding the corruption problem via the ina support website. When I hear back a reply I will share it with the list.

Also, based on some advice on this list I tried two things:

1. Get "I Love The King Day" in all my cities. I did this and reduced corruption from about 70% down to about 40%. (Again, this is Chieftain level, in a Democracy!) Of course now I have very few scientists or tax collectors, but it's still an improvement.

2. Forestry: Since I had many fairly large cities with no production, I took a tip from this list and made those cities create an army of workers. Then, I put 4 workers each around select cities and had them seed a forest, then cut down the forest. That gives the city an additional 10 shields every other turn. With those shields the city is able to at least function -- although it's a pain having to give instructions to these workers all the time.

Jon
 
Ok, I've put the anti-corruption mod file in the 'completed modpack' forum for anyone who wants to download it.

As for the Forbidden Palace, I had already built it some time before I felt it necessary to edit the rules. It does help, about as much as the Palace does, but that didn't seem to be very much. Like many of us, I fought the good fight, and did everything humanly possible to reduce corruption before coming to the conclusion that it was just set to a much higher level in Civ3 than I was accustomed to from Civ2 or 1. Shortly afterward, I came to the conclusion that I greatly prefered the levels from the earlier games.

It's mostly about pace -- lowering corruption picks up the pace, allowing all the civs in the game to build and discover at what I think is a sanity-restoring rate. For me it's a godsend; for others, it may be unwelcome, and to each his/her own, but I think the reason the rules editor was included in this game was to encourage just this sort of tinkering and customization.

your pal,

Armor
 
I too feel corruption is a bit overdone. I think the concept is good (and I always thought that zero corruption under democracy in CIV II was a bit silly), but I've only had one game (out of 5 or so I've started) where the corruption wasn't insane. That game was played on Warlord, and I built the forbidden palace, had TONS of luxury resources and was democratic w/20% luxuries... and my empire was fairly compact and restricted to one continent.

I really do like the idea that corruption will make far-flung empires (especially those including overseas cities) difficult. But it shouldn't totally cripple you. What is the point of being and "expansionist" civ if the expansion doesn't really help you? Or militaristic if conquest isn't worth it? As far as I can tell the AI is crippled by it as well, and this actually really helps me because the AI agressively settles as much land as possible, including gaps in my empire. Later, when my cities are nicely developed and his are still crap, I get them via cultural defection.

A friend of mine was checking out the game and played as the Romans on the world map... and got started in Australia. He played it out for a while, but when his legions began capturing English cities in SE Asia, he realized his mistake. The cities were unhappy (they starved down to size 1) and couldn't produce anything. Of course, his point was he was doing better than the Aborigines did.
 
I'm playing a democracy, huge map, I have 60-70 cities, chieftain difficulty. Tax rates are 3 tax / 7 science / 0 luxury. I also have access to six different luxury items, causing lots of happiness. According to the first advisor I have about 15% corruption.

So in short trade for luxuries if you want to remove corruption, it's something you have learn because it's different from the previous Civ games, but that doesn't mean it's so bad it has to removed.
 
I think corruption is the #2 best improvement in the game (the smarter AI is number 1, btw).

With corruption, there is very little point in taking over the whole map. As a result, I've seen a relatively balanced multipolar endgame for the first time in the whole civ series. In Civ 1, 2, and SMAC/X, it seemed like the game was over 50-75% of the way through. Either you get riflemen while everyone else has pikemen, or you're struggling to build musketeers when Chinese battleships show up at your port cities. Corruption does a nice job of preventing the 10th+ cities from producing much, thereby delivering everyone into the industrial and modern ages with a fair chance.
 
I find the "I love the (King) day" was somewhat effective. Does anybody have a stradegy guide? Surely THAT must help?
I think curroption and waste should be toned down some, but it DOES balance the game somewhat.
 
I pretty much agree with Scary Penguin, the new corruption is great. It does help prevent ICS runaway wins. If you want to conquer the world, you'd better have your core empire in tip top shape since this will have to do most of the production for you. With ICS in Civ2 you could neglect your core empire to some degree as you cranked out endless cities. I used ICS in Civ2 and always neglected city improvements in my core empire in order to concentrate on cranking out endless cities. Not now. I have to develop my core empire if I have a chance at conquest (my fav way to win) since I know conquered cities will not be adding much in increased production.

Or you can just be content with having your borders limited by the extent of corruption and go for one of the many peaceful wins.

Also, you need to take a different look at what a particular city does for you. Why must a city exist solely for increased production? In Civ3 cities and territory are more than just giving you more $ and shields. Your cities can still be useful even if it doesn't produce a single shield. In my current game at Warlord I've built three cities on a swath of contiguous desert squares far from my capitol. Even if it wasn't for corruption, these cities would produce little anyway because of the harsh terrain. So why build them? Because on my whole continent these are the only desert squares. And what can I do with low production desert squares? Think Saudi Arabia. Out of the 30-40 desert squares these otherwise useless cities possess, I figure at least a couple of them will have oil or other resource in the desert that I can't yet see. Same goes for jungle and mountain terrain. A lot of complaining on this site about the difficult terrain. These aren't useless like in Civ2. You can't ignore them now. These squares will have essential resources you'll need in the industrial era. So what if they don't produce shields? It will be more than made up if you happen to have landed the only uranium on your continent by building a "useless" city there in the middle ages.

Then there's just building a city to block another civ from gaining territory. The way the AI employs ICS, sometimes you just have to plop down a city in an otherwise crappy area just to box in an opposing civ.

Lastly, the Forbidden Palace is the best of the small wonders. Very carefully consider where you build this as it's the best thing you have to combat corruption in far off cities. The best is in the capital of a far away conquered civ. Make sure you have a Leader saved up to rush build, since the city will likely have 1 shield a turn and you'll be waiting 400 turns for it to complete. No, corruption isn't vanquished completely, but it's a lot less of a problem with the FP and instantly makes a completely productionless area viable. FP is not to be underestimated, it's essential to solving corruption problems and well worth sacrificing a leader for, IMHO.

e
 
well, i'm new here, hello all :)

i'm also thinking that corruption/waste is way too high. i played civ1, civ2 and smac, and we all know which strategy lead to success in these games... bulding tons of cities and establishing a world-wide empire :)
that's the way i like civ and i was somewhat disappointed when i found out that i couldn't follow this strategy in civ3.
just tried armors modification idea and it works just fine for me. thx.

well, after reading the pro-corruption arguments here i'll try an unmodified game sometime, but i'm still not sure if this corruption thing was really intended by firaxis (see the democracy experiences listed in various threads here, for example)
 
The best way I found to control corruption is the "We love the king day". Bump up your luxuries to 10%. Bring in a couple of luxury resources... and voila... "WE LOVE THE KING DAY!". the corruption and waste really go down to tolerable levels. It still hard to establish cities far away from your capital... but they eventaully join in the party. It's really wild to see fireworks going over my cities while the mech infanty and tanks go rolling into enemy territory :)

Oh, I'm playing as a democracy... that's helps as well as police stations...

:)
 
Originally posted by eMarkM
I pretty much agree with Scary Penguin, the new corruption is great. It does help prevent ICS runaway wins. If you want to conquer the world, you'd better have your core empire in tip top shape since this will have to do most of the production for you.
Click to expand...

Uh, big empires are not against the laws of reality, but rather to limit that concept is.

I can sprawl when I feel like sprawling and not have some stupid limit to the amount of cities I could bare.

Japan didn't lose the WW2 because they were out classed by US factory conditions, but they were simply out built cause US had more damn land, resources,and factories.

Staying small is one strategy and mass land taking is another.
-Barbarians are effective at stopping wondering settlers
-Settlers cost 2 population instead of one,
-Workers cost 1 pop if you want any improvement done to your land.
-newly placed cities without culture (temple) are hindered with halved resource squres.
-Lets not forget the factor of other civs taking advantage of a civ who's been doing nothing but sprawling.

The world is made for conquering, the one who could takes it over, wins. It is a concept of the game for winning. How much sense, then, is it to have only a handful of cities at the heart of this huge empire of the earth being able to produce a tank without losing more than half their production to corruption?!?


What Firaxis should have done, instead of this corruption bs, is implore the concept of lessen corruption until the dawn of new age or change in government. Having 50 percent corruption in modern/democracy is both unrealistic and stupid.
 
What I would like to see is corruptions tempered by culture. We need some sort of equation like


corruption = ((distance from palace + unhappy citizens) / government type * culture) - ( courthouse + we love president + other advancements)
 
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