CoS Discussion: Section D/E - Turn Chat Rules

Originally posted by Cyc


That's pure b/s Ravensfire, as is your claim of wanting this game to be forum based. You tell these citizen how much you favor control of the game to be forum based, then you want to railroad a rule through that allows the President to play as many turns as they damn well feel like, without any citizen input from the forums. What hogwash! You're pulling the wool over these people's eyes and you know it.

The first turns of a Civ3 game are very critical. Because of discussion and the President asking advice in the first t/c it will be far from a 30 minute chat. We're probably looking at getting a screenshot every turn and discussing it among the attendees. Ten turns will be plenty of action for the first chat. It will give ample ammunition for discussion in the forums. The second turn chat will be just as important. Forum input is necessary for a successful Demogame, I heard you say things like that on many occasions. But now you want to rip off the forum-users and put the entire scope of the game's begining in the hands of the chat attendees. That's madness. Put down that hash pipe, sir.

We need to keep bringing back the save to the forums for discussion on our potential moves and options. 10 turns is a great limit for this. It allows the Governor to get a discussion going about what to build based on what we find. Allowing the President to run helter-skelter through the game is not a good idea.

And you need to stop saying that you are in favor of a forum based game, as this quote clearly shows that you are not.
Click to expand...

Cyc, were there a way to demand satisfaction from you I would. I could not be more deply offended, nor could you be more wrong.

You have just demostrated that you have no clue about what I stand for, my beliefs or my values.

You are not the person I thought you were.
-- Ravensfire
 
Whoa guys, this got out of hand way too fast. I'm not sure I want either of you to be CJ given this latest development. :eek:

There is a very good reason for wanting to have a soft limit on number of turns. What if we have 11 turns left on Iron Working? As Internal Affairs Minster, I expect to be able to say yes, go the extra turn so we can have meaningful discussion on where to settle, if we don't have iron already within our borders. With a hard 10 turn limit, I have to try to get the president to stop 1 turn into the next chat.

On the other hand, there is a huge body of practice (the entire SG forum for example) which shows that 10 turns is the generally accepted limit for advance planning. The very first set of turns is usually played at 20 turns.

How about this -- the guideline is 20 turns for the first chat, 10 thereafter. The president may exceed this limit by 20% by stating in advance of planning for that session, and there is a hard limit of 24 turns for the 1st chat, and 12 turns for subsequent chats.

To address the needs of the leaders, provide a way to instruct the DP to stop a chat early, if a defined event occurs. For example, we have IW due in 6 turns, I will be extremely upset if we don't stop at that point to examine the iron situation and end up wasting a settler on a bad placement.
 
Talk about slick (and I said slick, not sick you alarmist) political talk. I had to read through three quarters of your first post to find anything of substance! And your "Perilous Pauline" antics of "shock, I'm so wounded" doesn't rate many points either, Ravensfire.

You want to allow the DP to run away with the game with no accountability. Period. You claim that the DP has to post a save every 5 turns for the forum people to review, and THAT'S a safegaurd? You're the one on drugs, my friend. How often does a President read the forums while playing the save in the chat?

My reading comprehension skills? I explain to you in no uncertain terms how letting the President run away with the game for God knows how many turns with no accountability to the forums, and you still say your helping those people? Your only arguement about this is that my opinion about having t/c's is stopping you from becoming President? How selfish! Think of all the people that don;'t want to be President, who have to read about the last 30 turns that they had no say in.

Think about it Ravensfire. You want to rush through the begining of the game (the Democracy Game) making sure the citizens have no say in the playing of that game (other than looking at saves as they fly by). You do not want to help these people, you want to deny them the right to participate in the game the came to enjoy.
 
quoting DaveShack:
There is a very good reason for wanting to have a soft limit on number of turns. What if we have 11 turns left on Iron Working? As Internal Affairs Minster, I expect to be able to say yes, go the extra turn so we can have meaningful discussion on where to settle, if we don't have iron already within our borders. With a hard 10 turn limit, I have to try to get the president to stop 1 turn into the next chat.

On the other hand, there is a huge body of practice (the entire SG forum for example) which shows that 10 turns is the generally accepted limit for advance planning. The very first set of turns is usually played at 20 turns.

How about this -- the guideline is 20 turns for the first chat, 10 thereafter. The president may exceed this limit by 20% by stating in advance of planning for that session, and there is a hard limit of 24 turns for the 1st chat, and 12 turns for subsequent chats.

In your example, DS of 20 turns the first t/c and 10 thereafter, if we went straight for Iron Working, your proposed limits would probably mean the difference of getting I/W in the begining of the last week of the first Term or the end of the last week of the first Term. By then there are plenty of other quandries that could tie up the game, such as war, etc.

The first 10 turns of the game are very critical and need review by the citizens to determine our best course of action as a Nation. How about 10/15/15/10 thereon. That would give the first President 90 turns instead of the 80 turns that all the other Presidencies get. This would still allow the citizens to give input on the first ten turns, but allow the DP a little extra leeway in the second and third chat.

There can be extenuating circumstances that can be foreseen and discussed prior to the t/c's involved where a Technology might be available if we go an extra turn or two. That's not a problem with me. But having no limits on the amount of turns a DP can take is outrageous. The citizens need to be able to review the save and give input at short intervals. I don't see how we can rob them of this right.
 
Originally posted by Cyc

The first 10 turns of the game are very critical and need review by the citizens to determine our best course of action as a Nation.
Click to expand...
Hmm, let's see if I got this straight. In 10 turns, we have at most 2 warriors, which are at most 5 and 2 tiles away from the start location, unless we're going to work a forest and slow growth to 20 turns. What can the people possibly have to discuss that early? :lol:

[edit]The above example is in terms of no shield bonus tiles, of course...:blush:[/edit]

If there really is something, then I'm all for discussion, but I'd like to hear a specific example of something that can happen that early.
 
A Goodie Hut? A Barbarian Camp? Going South into the Jungle to see if there are more lux's there, North into the plains, or West into the desert to see how bountiful the flood plains will be? Should we talk to the English scout that just should up? How about the Iroquois scout? Should we accept the trade they offered? Do we want a Granary before we start on Settlers? Do we need a Barracks because our nieghbors are so close? Should we be roading and mining our land or just mining? Why aren't we roading? Why aren't we mining? Why is the Sci rate at 90% instead of 10%. What the heck is the Lux rate doing at 10%? What do you mean you changed production from this to that?

There are a lot of individual questions that MAY need to be addressed by the citizens. I can probably think of some more if you give me half a day.
 
Originally posted by Cyc
A Goodie Hut? A Barbarian Camp? Going South into the Jungle to see if there are more lux's there, North into the plains, or West into the desert to see how bountiful the flood plains will be? Should we talk to the English scout that just should up? How about the Iroquois scout? Should we accept the trade they offered? Do we want a Granary before we start on Settlers? Do we need a Barracks because our nieghbors are so close? Should we be roading and mining our land or just mining? Why aren't we roading? Why aren't we mining? Why is the Sci rate at 90% instead of 10%. What the heck is the Lux rate doing at 10%? What do you mean you changed production from this to that?
Click to expand...

I don't want to get into a toe to toe, but here are some friendly thoughts. :D

A Goodie Hut? Post an instruction to pop or not pop

A Barbarian Camp? Post an instruction to attack or not.

Going South into the Jungle to see if there are more lux's there, North into the plains, or West into the desert to see how bountiful the flood plains will be? We look at the start pos & discuss in advance.

Should we talk to the English scout that just should up? How about the Iroquois scout? Never heard of someone not talking to a new civ on sight.

Should we accept the trade they offered? Trade & tech can post conditional instructions, or DP can stop.

Do we want a Granary before we start on Settlers? Do we need a Barracks because our nieghbors are so close? Discuss after knowing the start pos. These will most likely [edit] need to [/edit] be decided after the 20 turns anyway.

Should we be roading and mining our land or just mining? Why aren't we roading? Why aren't we mining? Why is the Sci rate at 90% instead of 10%. What the heck is the Lux rate doing at 10%? What do you mean you changed production from this to that? These would be citizen complaint issues, no mater how many turns pass. To avoid them we would have to play 1 turn at a time and take 3 years to finish.
 
Originally posted by DaveShack


I don't want to get into a toe to toe, but here are some friendly thoughts. :D

A Goodie Hut? Post an instruction to pop or not pop

A Barbarian Camp? Post an instruction to attack or not.

Going South into the Jungle to see if there are more lux's there, North into the plains, or West into the desert to see how bountiful the flood plains will be? We look at the start pos & discuss in advance.

Should we talk to the English scout that just should up? How about the Iroquois scout? Never heard of someone not talking to a new civ on sight.

Should we accept the trade they offered? Trade & tech can post conditional instructions, or DP can stop.

Do we want a Granary before we start on Settlers? Do we need a Barracks because our nieghbors are so close? Discuss after knowing the start pos. These will most likely [edit] need to [/edit] be decided after the 20 turns anyway.

Should we be roading and mining our land or just mining? Why aren't we roading? Why aren't we mining? Why is the Sci rate at 90% instead of 10%. What the heck is the Lux rate doing at 10%? What do you mean you changed production from this to that? These would be citizen complaint issues, no mater how many turns pass. To avoid them we would have to play 1 turn at a time and take 3 years to finish.
Click to expand...

I disagree. These are legit concerns that need to be checked before the game goes too far. The amount of visable land will have changed dramatically after 10 turns and new options will be available because of the new knowledge. This new knowledge needs to be shared with the citizens so they can properly address it through discussion.
 
I think that it may be a good idea to establish a recommended maximum turnchat length of 10 turns, and an absolute maximum that a turnchat can last at 15 turns. This gives the President some leeway in the event that a longer turnchat would be necessary, and a responsible President would hopefully keep most chats to 10 turns.
 
How about a poll on the issue:

How many turns should the initial game play session be scheduled for?

10
15
20
25
30

This is a cumulative poll. The smallest value for which itself and all smaller numbers receives a majority of votes cast will be used for the initial chat.

For the law here is a proposal. As usual, this is not stated in legaleze, I will leave that to more qualified people:

The standard number of turns to play per session is 10. This may be exceeded by up to 50% (a maximum of 15) if the game situation warrants such an extension, and the extension is requested via a valid instruction. [for example, continue until mathematics is researched (12 turns) and then stop as soon as it is possible to save the game] An instruction may specify that fewer than the standard number of turns may be played. A vote of the citizens may increase or decrease the number of turns to be played for any given session.
 
From my perspective, some of the best discussion and friendly debate I have ever seen in this game, is in the VERY beginning. The city placement maps, the expansion plans, etc... That is the heart of the democracy game.

Once we get to guns and horsies, lets face it, our path is pretty much decided, and the discussions are more academic, compared to early on, where our decisions have massive impact for thousands of years down the road.

I would not want to see the chance for those discussions short circuited compared to the desire to have a long turn chat.

I say a maximum of 10 turns. On the other hand, the DP, and ONLY the DP, should ever be allowed to end a chat early, and they should not be subject to the whims of a spot vote.

I was CJ during perhaps the most tumultuous time in DG history... yes, even worse than DG3, and I can tell you these rules are battle tested to be good solutions.
 
My apologies eyrei. Certain buttons got pushed and I responded. I'm staying out of this one - I'm still in a foul mood over it.

-- Ravensfire
 
So now we're just going to waffle on this until mid Term. Unbelieveable. OK. I'll write up the Standard. This needs to be done immediately.
 
This is the prior proposal with the addition of the restriction of 10 turns maximum per Turn Chat.

After discussion here in this thread and discussion in the chat, I see more people in favor of 10 turns per chat than allowing it to go unrestricted. In my opinion, allowing more than 10 turns per chat would be the same as leaving it unrestricted. Therefore I have added this to the end of D.

Code: 
D.  Turn Chat Procedures 
  1.  The Designated Player (see Chain of Command) should be in the chat room at 
      least 10 minutes before the scheduled time and begin play at the specified 
      start time.  The Designated Player may conduct any prepatory activities 
      that can be immediately undone without reloading the save, at any time 
      prior to the start of the turn chat, even offline.
      a.  The primary chat room shall be #Turnchat on irc.irc-chat.net.
  2.  If the Designated Player has not shown up 10 minutes after the scheduled 
      start of the turn chat, a new Designated Player shall be chosen from the
      officials present following the Chain of Command. If none are present, then
       the Chat is cancelled.
  3.  The Designated Player shall upload a save of the game after turn 0, every 5 
      turns after that, and a final save at the conclusion of the chat. 
  4.  If the Designated Player voluntarily relinquishes control, they shall post a 
      current save of the game in the TCIT.  The next person in the COC attending 
      the chat shall download this save and resume playing the game with that save.
  5.  If the Designated Player disappears and has not reappeared within 10 minutes, 
      the next person attending the chat on the COC shall become the Designated 
      Player using the most recently uploaded save game. 
  6.  If a game has to be used that is not current, then the moves from the chat log 
      must be duplicated. 
  7.  Once a player has started playing the save, they are the Designated Player for
      that turn chat and shall not be required to relinquish play to a late 
      arriving/returning, but higher ranked official.
   8. The maximum number of turns to be played per Turn Chat will be 10. 
      a.  A valid and binding Forum Poll may extend the number of turns to be 
           played, on a per-chat basis
      b.  Under extenuating circumstances the chat may be extended by the DP for up to 
           3 turns.  No other approval is need for the DP to extend the Turn Chat if the 
           allowable conditions are met. The
           reasons a chat may be extended are:
          * to allow research to complete so that next options can be discussed
          * to allow a specific wonder or production to complete, so its affects can be 
            determined
          * to complete a military action, so that peace terms can be discussed, or 
             follow on action planned
          * to allow a period of anarchy to complete, so the government change can be 
             assessed


E.  Turn Chat Rules 
  1.  Only citizens of the Democracy game shall be voiced. 
  2.  Citizens are encouraged to provide constructive advice & positively contribute 
      to the chat.
  3.  Spaming, lobbying, repetitive questions and any other unnecessary traffic in the 
      chat is forbidden. 
  4.  Clones are not allowed! 
  5.  Violations of the chat rules shall result in the offender being de-voiced. 
  6.  The chat operators hold the right to de-voice all non-officials if the chat gets too 
      confusing or is disturbed by someone permanently. The Designated Player 
      makes this decision. 
  7.  De-voicing actions shall be investigated by the Judiciary. 
  8.  During turn chats, #Demogame is still open for totally free discussions. 
      Departments or special interest groups can also open private discussion rooms. 
  9.  The Designated Player retains the right to end the chat turn at their discretion. 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
Originally posted by Bill_in_PDX

I say a maximum of 10 turns. On the other hand, the DP, and ONLY the DP, should ever be allowed to end a chat early, and they should not be subject to the whims of a spot vote.
Click to expand...

Hi Bill,

Spot vote == 4 letter words... We're not having them. :)

However, I do support "stop if/when x happens" instructions, especially when backed by a forum poll.
 
Originally posted by Cyc
This is the prior proposal with the addition of the restriction of 10 turns maximum per Turn Chat.
Click to expand...

I'm ok with this if a forum vote is allowed to extend it on a per-chat basis, and if going over for the special circumstances I noted above (resource visibility, trade opportunity, wonder completion to name some) is allowed. I will drop the 20 turn initial chat -- and gloat when nothing substantial needs deciding... :)
 
I think 50% is too much, DS. Let's make it a 30% possible extension if a Technology can be achieved in those 3 turns. Within this 30% allowance what other reasons would you want to allow the extension?
 
Suggested additions:

[edit]
cross-posted with Cyc. I'm flexible on the number of turns it can be extended. [/edit]
[edit2]I also realized on reading my code back that it is not clear what the difference is between D.8.a and D.8.b. D.8.a is a citizen vote to extend the chat, for any reason at all. D.8.b allows the DP to extend it for these reasons only. [/edit2]
Code: 
D.  Turn Chat Procedures 
   8. The maximum number of turns to be played per Turn Chat will be 10. [b]
      a.  A citizen poll may extend the number of turns to be played, on a
            per-chat basis
      b.  Under extenuating circumstances the chat may be extended by the DP for up to 3 turms.  The
           reasons a chat may be extended are:
          * to allow research to complete so that next options can be discussed
          * to allow a specific wonder or production to complete, so its affects can be determined
          * to complete a military action, so that peace terms can be discussed, or followon action planned
          * to allow a period of anarchy to complete, so the government change can be assessed
[/b]
 
Originally posted by Cyc
I think 50% is too much, DS. Let's make it a 30% possible extension if a Technology can be achieved in those 3 turns. Within this 30% allowance what other reasons would you want to allow the extension?
Click to expand...

I posted a proposed addition to the code at the same time as your question, and then edited the post to say I'm flexible on the amount of extension to be granted, 3 turns might do. In my proposed amendment a citizen vote can extend it as well, and these things are known in advance anyway, for the most part.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

D
Great Works slow down player`s turn speed
Replies
3
Views
432
Noble Zarkon
Noble Zarkon
The_J
New studio Bitreactor by former Civ and XCOM devs announces turn-based Star Wars game!
Replies
0
Views
623
The_J
The_J
Eyswein
  • Sticky
7otM07 Announcement
2
Replies
21
Views
1K
Bleidraner
B
Eyswein
  • Sticky
6otM195 Announcement
Replies
0
Views
516
Eyswein
Eyswein
The_J
Old World update #134
Replies
0
Views
684
The_J
The_J
Back
Top Bottom