COTM 05 Pre-Game Discussion

[Dianthus]

If it's possible to do what WackenOpenAir suggested then I think that would be good. I've been playing Predator for a while now, and would rather not have my submissions tainted by the "Predator is easier" perception . Is it possible to give the human player production disadvantages rather than giving the AI production advantages? If not, maybe the human could be handicapped by making them only capable of building more expensive Settlers/Workers/other units/buildings (I.e. Settler costing 40 shields, Worker costing 2 pop or something).

 

[Darkness]

If it's possible to do what WackenOpenAir suggested then I think that would be good. I've been playing Predator for a while now, and would rather not have my submissions tainted by the "Predator is easier" perception . Is it possible to give the human player production disadvantages rather than giving the AI production advantages? If not, maybe the human could be handicapped by making them only capable of building more expensive Settlers/Workers/other units/buildings (I.e. Settler costing 40 shields, Worker costing 2 pop or something).

Predator is not easier! The AI is harder to defeat, only the human player can reap rewards from conquering or trading with a more advanced AI. It's like RL really: The higher the risk factor, the bigger the reward. Basically, predator is more difficult so if you play it you have a good chance you get a higher score or earlier finish date...


As for your suggestion: I am very much opposed to modding the COTM/GOTM games to the extent you're suggesting. This changes gameplay too much IMHO.
Besides, if a better comparison between open class and predator class is what people are looking for, I doubt that would be achieved by modding one of the classes in such a gamechanging way...

 

[Denniz]

Predator is not easier! The AI is harder to defeat, only the human player can reap rewards from conquering or trading with a more advanced AI. It's like RL really: The higher the risk factor, the bigger the reward. Basically, predator is more difficult so if you play it you have a good chance you get a higher score or earlier finish date...

I thought the purpose of Predator was to give a greater challenge not greater rewards. If one can achieve a better finish date for a given victory condition on predator than on open then that is not a level play field. If you can't do the same on open then it is an unfair advantage.

Conquest class is penalized 15% to compensate for the advantages that would allow a better result. Why should it be different for any Predator advantages? Maybe the Jason Dates should take into consideration any unintented advantages from Predator AI bonuses.

 

[Dianthus]

Well, any Open player that thinks Predator is easier can always play Predator .

 

[smackster]

I play about half my games Predator, and half open. To be honest I'm looking for the best advantage to achieving my victory goal, for time (RL time) purposes I don't want to prolong the game any longer than it is.

General rule is that I play Monarch and below at Predator, and Emperor and above at Open. However, I'll modify this and play Predator at Emperror/Demi/Diety if it looks like a good start position, or my intended victory goal requires fast tech pace.

However there are always times of risk playing civ, and playing at Predator increases the risk. If you look at my GOTM submissions you'll see a few missing results, and they were all Predator games that went bad, there were also a couple of medal games played at Predator where I really learned my lesson.

Personally I don't like playing with a unit or trait missing, and tend to avoid Predator if that is the case, as it feels I'm then playing a different game to others.

For this regent game, I'll certainly play Predator.

 

[Dynamic]

I think if the open player win a medal regularly he could be thinking about predator level.

 

[Darkness]

Conquest class is penalized 15% to compensate for the advantages that would allow a better result. Why should it be different for any Predator advantages? Maybe the Jason Dates should take into consideration any unintented advantages from Predator AI bonuses.

Predator class has no advantages! The Predator AI bonusses are AI bonusses only. The system can't help that a human player can twist that advantage, to a certain extent, to his/her own benefit. The consequence of the AI bonusses have the potential to create a more intense (and possibly shorter) game...
If you start penalizing the predator class for it's 'advantages', won't this only lengthen and intensify this argument? Then, IMHO it would be a better idea to abolish the predator class. And since I like the extra challenge, I don't support that idea either...

 

[WackenOpenAir]

Well, any Open player that thinks Predator is easier can always play Predator .

That is kind of a lame statement. It is not like other players cannot beat it at Predator. Certainly at regent, i am sure almost everyone can beat predator.

The point is, i do not think the idea behind predator was for the player to make a choise on wich of the 2 (open or pred) he thinks he can get the highest score.

 

[Denniz]

Predator class has no advantages! The Predator AI bonusses are AI bonusses only. The system can't help that a human player can twist that advantage, to a certain extent, to his/her own benefit. The consequence of the AI bonusses have the potential to create a more intense (and possibly shorter) game...
If you start penalizing the predator class for it's 'advantages', won't this only lengthen and intensify this argument? Then, IMHO it would be a better idea to abolish the predator class. And since I like the extra challenge, I don't support that idea either...

You say there are no advantages but then you go on to describe how a player can gain a benefit on predator ("Predator AI bonusses are AI bonusses only. The system can't help that a human player can twist that advantage, to a certain extent, to his/her own benefit"). The assumption is that someone cannot get that same benefit or level of benefit playing on open as on predator.

I have not played a predator class game as yet. I am still trying to master open. I would like to think that I have the same chance to achieve a given victory date on open as I would on predator. Otherwise how are the two classes comparable?

 

[Capt Buttkick]

I think the obvious solution has been mentioned already, make it harder for the human player instead of easier for the AI civs.
Removing the Zulu exp trait was an excellent way to do this. I'd like to see more predator penalties of this sort and less of the 'AI civs get an extra settler' setups (like cotm2).

 

[solenoozerec]

I have not played a predator class game as yet. I am still trying to master open. I would like to think that I have the same chance to achieve a given victory date on open as I would on predator. Otherwise how are the two classes comparable?

I haven’t play it yet too, because I always was thinking about it as a handicap. It is only now I started to understand that indeed there are good reasons to play predator class in many cases. Predator class gives bonuses to AI as a result it researches faster (which means that human could research faster too), AI has more units (which increases chances of great leaders appearance) and so on.
And indeed, just look on the distribution of predator class in results, none of the COTM medals was given to an open class player
Now I am seriously thinking about trying predator class.

After reading this discussion, I made a conclusion that people mostly agree that predator class should exist and it should be voluntarily. However, I see a major controversy about what predator class should be. My understanding of this issue is that there are two alternatives:
1. If predator gives a bonus to AI it creates an additional challenge for the player, but it also rewards him with a higher score.
2. If predator class handicaps human player it is just an additional challenge for the human player.
So, what it should be?
The topic, however, is beyond COTM5 pre-game discussion, so I am thinking to start a new thread in a few minutes. I think it will be nice if people will participate in it, it may help us better understand what predator class is, should we play it and why. And I hope it may also help Ainwood to design predator class.

 

[Dynamic]

I think the obvious solution has been mentioned already, make it harder for the human player instead of easier for the AI civs.
Removing the Zulu exp trait was an excellent way to do this. I'd like to see more predator penalties of this sort and less of the 'AI civs get an extra settler' setups (like cotm2).

In GOTM34 (Zulu) removing expantionist trait give me the barbs from the hut and my warrior promoted to elite and produced an early leader. It was the rare case when I love the barbs.

 

[solenoozerec]

In GOTM34 (Zulu) removing expantionist trait give me the barbs from the hut and my warrior promoted to elite and produced an early leader. It was the rare case when I love the barbs.

Uff, the issue is very difficult. Even removed trait can be beneficial. You do not want fast research because you go for conquest, but you want barbs because they will promote your units.
If I were Ainwood and had to design predator class I probably :suicide:

 

[Darkness]

You say there are no advantages but then you go on to describe how a player can gain a benefit on predator ("Predator AI bonusses are AI bonusses only. The system can't help that a human player can twist that advantage, to a certain extent, to his/her own benefit"). The assumption is that someone cannot get that same benefit or level of benefit playing on open as on predator.

Yes, logically:
The bigger the AI advantage, the bigger the human gain if you manage to turn it around by beating the AI.
So predator class has bigger AI advantages, thus also bigger human advantages *if* the human manages to turn the game to his plans...

That's the way the predator class works. One could always argue for the removal of the predator class, so all players would play the same AI opposition...


PS. I would support that idea.

 

[Denniz]

So predator class has bigger AI advantages, thus also bigger human advantages *if* the human manages to turn the game to his plans...

Would you play predator if you didn't think you could turn it to your advantage?

 

[Dianthus]

I know you didn't ask me, but yes! I'm not playing predator to get a better score. I'm playing to get a more difficult game. I would actually prefer predator to be a bit harder, but maybe I'm just a masochist .

 

[Darkness]

Would you play predator if you didn't think you could turn it to your advantage?

Don't know...
Probably not an issue, as I doubt Ainwood will make predator class beyond Sid...


Hypothetically: Yes. Why? Because I love a good challenge.

 

[Denniz]

Don't know...
Probably not an issue, as I doubt Ainwood will make predator class beyond Sid...


Hypothetically: Yes. Why? Because I love a good challenge.

I'm still being challenge enough by open class. (not to meantion by nature ) Maybe someday.

 

[solenoozerec]

I am not a moderator , but I opened a special thread about predator class to remove this discussion from COTM5 pre-game discussion.
If you want to post something about predator class, go here http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=101026
Lets leave this forum for cows on the East.

 

[SirPleb]

[Edit]deleted, should have gone on solenoozerec's new thread[/Edit]