COTM 15 First Spoiler: Ancient Age, Contacts

[Bans]

Weeeeell, my first XoTM... So here goes!!

Uhmm I thought I'd do a 5CC(I think it's called...). Well basicly I'll only built five cities all the game. Not allowed to get any other cities at all. Futhermore I decided I'd play peaceful, meaning that I couldn't declare war ever. I could not willfully cancel agreements(trades or alliances) with other civilizations. But I can make alliances IF I am attacked. I may deny or accept any attempt at blackmail and threats(So that I might be attacked). In addition, I wont be allowed to attack any cities or units outside my borders(this obviously aplies tot he units) and the only "attack" I have should I find myself in enemy territory is Pillage. Same aplies to artillery and bombers, only pillage and no bombing units outside my own borders. Inside my borders I am free to bomb and attack. So I can win by Space Race(if it is there), UN(if its there), Culture(20K I guess) and uhmmm cant remember if there are others! heheh

Well I started out and made a loose turn(read very loose) log... Well I didn't keep out much for the AI in this game, what wars were going on and so forth but I did most of my trades and the opening moves... later on it gets more slacky!!

I downloaded a version of the saved game where it says Monarch. And I start with two worlers... So I guess one of you will know what version I've got hehehe...

And BTW is it OK to make up addon **** like the above ruleset I set? hehehe

Well Here is untill Middle Ages...

3950 BC Found Delhi E of Start Location.
Build set to Warrior.
Workers move to Cow E.
Writing at 20%.
3800 BC Workers Irrigate Cow -> Start roading.
3700 BC Warrior finished goes E.
Workers done roading moves to BG S.
Research slider reduced to 10%.
Build set to Settler to settle Gems E.
3550 BC See blue border straight E.
3500 BC Meet Lan Xang, he's polite and has Wines.
Trade: Get Masonry + Pottery for CB + Alphabet.
3450 BC Trade: Get Worker for 3gpt + 55g.
3350 BC Delhi grows to 3.
Lux slider up to 10% like Research slider.
3300 BC Settler is done moves E towards Gems.
Build set to 2nd Warrior.
3250 BC Forgot the Lux Slider... set to 10%.
Workers to BG NE of Cow.
3150 BC Bombay is setlled -> Warrior.
3100 BC Meet Vijayanagar.
Trade: Get Vijay's BW for Masonry.
2630 BC Meet China.
Trade: Get Mao's WC + 10g for CB.
2590 BC Forgot the LUX SLIDER!! Set to 0%.
2550 BC Found Madras.
Meet Sumeria.
2510 BC Research set to 90%.
3gpt expires.
2470 BC Trade: Get Gilgamesh' Mysticism + 10g for Alphabet.
2230 BC Found Bangalore.
1870 BC Discover Writing -> Research set to CoL at max.
1650 BC Meet Japanese, Arabia.
Trade: Get Tokugawa's HR + IW + 180g for Alphabet + Masonry.
1325 BC Discover CoL.
Research set to Philosophy -> Changed to Literature.
Meet Persia, Techleader ATM.
370 BC Build Great Library.
350 BC Get Monarchy, Currency, Construction, The Republic and Feudalism from GL.
Enter Middle Ages.

MA Stats:
5 Cites.
34 Population.
Units:
17 Workers,
6 Warriors,
5 Swordsmen,
2 Medieval Infantry
6 Slave Workers.
Total culture: 1226(pr. turn 38)
Score(According to CivAssist1): 407

There ya go
Awaiting the towns to get to size 7 then go to The Republic.
Been in no wars(Yeah Arabs have declared but no fighting) so far altho the AI has fought a bit.

 

[socralynnek]

How did you arrive at this conclusion? Nb sugar on plains cannot yield +3 food in despotism, and the cows alone gave +5 food in republic.

The problem for my 2nd city was not food, but shields. If it had been the capital I would have had enough shields but due to corruption (I had another 2cities that were closer to the capital), it was a slower factory.
My capital would have had enough shields even after corruption.
(All only valid in republic)

 

[Megalou]

Thank you. It's astonishing how many players like you have achieved these exact calculations. When I joined the forum very few people managed that.

 

[Capt Buttkick]

I actually settled W and had two 4-turners.
Then again I settled the eastern settler pump E SE of the start and had no cities between it and the capitol. Sometimes a looser fit pay off, I guess.

 

[WarDance]

Cotm15 open class, noaipatrol=0

I've begun every gotm in the last 2 or three months and have never had time to complete any of them... well, besides being stomped as France in that Deity game. Anyway, hopefully I can finish this one. I am hoping for a diplo or spaceship victory, and so am pushing for fast research.

I settled Delhi 1 west from the start and sent the worker to the cattle. Normally I go for a granary build as soon as possible but the eastern cow was just too tempting. So my first builds were a warrior for scouting, another for MP, and then a settler who went for the grassland SE of the eastern cow. Then I built a granary with 2 forest chops. My scout went east to check out the land around the eastern cow and found a disheartening amount of jungle, some gems to the southeast, and then Lan Xang further east.

We met Lan Xang in 3300BC and traded ceremonial burial and alphabet for masonry and pottery. Bombay was founded next to the eastern cow in 3000BC. The granary was completed in Delhi in 2630BC. After meeting Lan Xang our scout went north, finding some good land and meeting China in 2390BC. We trade alphabet and pottery for the wheel, bronze working and 35 gold. Lan Xang gets the wheel for the bargain price of 10 coins. In 2350BC we meet Vijayanagar and trade alphabet for warrior code and 35 gold. We give them masonry and the wheel and they are gracious towards us. Soon after we meet Persia and in 2150BC we trade alphabet and ceremonial burial for iron working and 15 gold. Lan Xang and Vijayanagar receive iron working as gifts and are both gracious.

Bangalore is founded in 2110BC and we meet the Arabs soon after. They have mysticism and 13 coins and trade with us for iron working. Lan Xang receives mysticism for the price of 25 gold. Writing (which we researched at some point, yet I failed to WRITE down when) is traded to Persia for Horse back riding and 60 gold. China gives us 25 gold for HBR. Vijayanagar gives us 34 gold for writing. All remaining techs are given freely to whoever needs them. China, Lan Xang, and the Vijayanagar are all gracious. Persia nad the Arabs are polite.

We research philosophy in 1650BC and I realize that the unit cost under Republic would be my undoing. I check in with my rivals and find that the Arabs have researched polytheism AND they have mathematics! Philosophy and code of laws is enough to convince them to give us both techs plus 46 gold. We take monarchy as our free tech and revolt immediately. We meet Sumer on the same turn and alphabet empties their coffers; 20 gold. They receive many many gifts of technology from us as they are far behind.

The Indian nation becomes a monarchy in 1600BC, and we resarch literature in 1350. Literature is traded around in 1325 for map making and 25 gold from the Arabs. Map making and Literature trades then net us a total of 155 gold. Anyone who doesn't have gold receives the techs as gifts. We cash rush a library in Bombay.

In 1300BC the city of Hyderabad is built, and a library is rushed in Delhi. Bengal is constructed in 1275BC and in 1100BC our research on currency is complete. China researches construction in 1050BC and currency plus 20 gold convinces them to trade with us and we are both propelled into the Middle Ages. The first trading round of the Middle Ages nets us a meager 157 gold. All civs without cash receive construction and currency for free. Sumer and Persia both receive monotheism as their free tech and neither are willing to trade. I was holding out on trading monarchy to anyone in the hopes that I could use it for bargaining power, but Sumer researched it themselves and Persia doesn't seem to be interested in it or my gold. I suppose I spoiled them and they're used to freebies now. We begin research on Engineering.

At 1000BC, 13 is the lucky number.

We have:
13 workers
13 warriors
13 towns with 27 pop
2 granaries
2 libraries
2 barracks
and 2 settlers in the field.

Our iron will finally be roaded on the next turn, dyes are connected, and a settler will be grabbing 2 silks on the next turn as well. Horses will be roaded very soon, and I need to quickly decide where I want the Forbidden Palace.



I think the screenshot is from 1050BC... at 1000BC there is an additional town on the NW coast by the horses and my settler in the NE is right next to the silks.

 

[Twonky]

open class

I went west for Delhi and was a little late with my first settler in 3150 BC, bound to build Bombay SW of the eastern cow. Nice surprise when I got there in 3000 BC:

Allright Lan Xang, I´ll remember that. One of us is not gonna make it to the end. I considered going for him with archers, but his 2/2 UU made me change my mind. I hardly encountered any threats and focused on science. The slingshot came in in 1625 BC and after delaying the revolt for one turn I was in Republic in 1550 BC.
The MA was entered just in time for the QSC in 1000 BC, with
13 towns with 26 pop and 3 Granaries and 3 Temples,
all AA-techs except Monarchy,
5 Settlers, 4 Archers, 3 Warriors, 1 Spear, 12 Workers and 4 Slaves,
all contacts and embassies except with Japan.

 

[MiniMe]

I settle east because I was not sure if western cow was on river. I start with two mighty warriors. One heads east and the other stays as MP in Delhi. Then I build a settler.

First warrior goes east and we meet Lan Xang in 3450BC and I am in luck as he is willing to trade me a worker and masonry for alphabet and ceremonial burial. New worker joins Delhi.

First settler finished in 3150BC. I start new settler to claim gems.

Discover Writing 2630BC.
Discover Code of Laws 2070BC.
Discover Philosophy 1790BC.
Discover Mathematics 1525BC.
Discover Currency 1400BC.
Discover Construction in 1200BC. ---> Enter MA

QSC stats:
17 towns
36 population
1 settler
18 workers
2 granaries
5 barracks
2 temples
4 warriors
2 horsemen

All AA techs (except Monarchy) + Engineering and Monotheism. Feudalism in 2 turns.

1000BC map:

 

[Choffy]

Based on different posts, I have a question about starting strategy
Was it better to build first in the capital,
- a settler to take control of the second cow. Then build granary in both cities
- or build first a granary and then put the first settler on the second cow and build also a granary.
I selected the second choice and I think it was a mistake.

On what criteria do you decide to first build a settler or a granary.
Thanks for your comment.

 

[AlanH]

There was once a learned paper on this subject, by none other than SirPleb. His rule of thumb went something like this:

- In the early game population is power, so maximum population growth is your primary objective.
- A granary doubles population growth rate in your capital.
- If you can see a new city site that can produce at least as much food as your capital then you should build a settler first because the second city will increase your total growth rate as much as, or more than, a granary, and the second city delivers other benefits as well.
- If you can't see a city site with as much food as your capital then build a granary in your capital as that gives the best growth improvement you can achieve.
- This apply to any city, in fact, not just your capital, and it should apply as long as you can see city sites with food potential at or above an existing city's food production.

I don't know how this rule works out when applied to this map, as I didn't play it.

 

[Jove]

Open. When I can't upgrade horses, I get forlorn.

My plan was to build on my insights from the Russia game.
1. I resolved to be much more aggressive about building roads to my enemies, with a willingness to sacrifice even (*gasp*) science to do it. So overload workers.

2. Speaking of movement, get boats out quick on both coasts… if there’s anyone out there, I want to know about it!

3. Even though this map is just loaded with resources (iron on almost every hill!), I still wanted to consciously choose my first target based on the quality of their land. Score counts, after all. At 1500BC, the Lan Xang to the east seem to have the cows…

I'm going for a military victory, so I tried to keep building down to a minimum. I built two early temples, one to the east and one to the west, to define borders and have some early culture to prevent flips. After that, almost all military.

In 2850, an exploring warrior met a Chinese worker mining out in the open. Immediately DOW, steal the worker, get him started on hooking up those dyes. It worked, the worker roaded a jungle and then build a Dyes colony. I expected it to clear the jungle...oh well. Nothing else happened in this war, and peace in 2350 cost me 20g. That's a cheap worker! I really really like this move, although reading the posts of the early peacemongers, maybe it isn't really getting me anywhere.

I didn't manage the land as well as some. I built too many warriors (8), and had them out exploring when I needed MPs to keep people happy. As a result, my science rate suffered. I reached Republic in 1625, still not too bad. The exploring did pay off in that I had around 300g at this time. I spent much of it unwisely on settlers in my core cities when I should have been short-rushing and disbanding the warriors. So, a few mistakes. Weird how I keep finding more mistakes to make after all these games!

I reached the MA in 1125. It wasn't until 750BC that I met the Japanese and qualified for this spoiler.

There isn't much else to tell in this time period. I just tried to grow and set up some barracks. I'm planning on shooting straight to Chivalry, thinking hard about whether or not to get some early iron units out for early conquest...

The map is great fun, especially in the context of the last several months of xOTMs. Quite a switch! Thanks Karasu!!

Here's a screenie from 1000BC. My stats: 14 cities, 3 settlers, 12 workers, 7 warriors (disbanded 1), 1 vet archer, 1 vet horseman. 2 temples, 4 barracks. 158cp. 4g, +0gpt. Feudalism in 12

 

[eldar]

A question about ancient-age research.

In recent COTMs, a number of players have been making it to the Middle Ages before the QSC period is up; 1200BC (MiniMe) being the earliest example in this game.

How is this achieved? I am hazarding a guess that it's done by gifting every tech to every known civ as soon as it's learned (or getting the best trade!), so as to make sure that they're working on something fresh and relevant?

So you're at a point where you can reasonably assume that some are researching Tech A, some Tech B, and the player Tech C (e.g. Polytheism, Construction, Currency) hoping to use the Currency monopoly as leverage for the others.

Or am I missing the point entirely?

 

[chunkymonkey]

Well I can't speak for those who made it into the MA pre-QSC since I missed out by 2 turns (although had I not researched Literature I would have entered ~ 1100BC), but I find its mostly down to being wise with gifts, careful use of money (the gold hill was very useful if used optimally in the two settler factories), and a lot of luck.

I researched at maximum up to the Republic slingshot and got there in 1650BC through use of gold hill. Being blessed with religious anarchy is a bonus. After that I could trade for all other AA techs, bar Maths, Construction and Currency. I hoped that someone would research Maths whilst I was researching Literatre but it was not to be (unlucky), so I just researched the remaining techs on my own. Usually once I have Maths I gift it to everybody in the vain hope that somebody will research Construction or Currency, but I decided not to in this game, for tactical reasons, and I could research them both in 12 turns anyway, so it was not really necessary.

A lot of the time it really is down to luck, as to which AI meets which before the QSC is up, and therefore the effect on your brokering prospects. Also I was lucky with dispersing a few barb camps which propped up my max research.

That's how I see it anyway.

 

[Andronicus]

Looked at where I wanted to settle – decided on first 2 cities being 1W and 1E, 1SE. Better terrain appeared to be around latter so moved settler E, SE settling Delhi in 3900BC. Builds warr *2, granary, settlers. Research writing at max (hoping to make contacts for pottery).
W1 -> east, then north contacting Lam 3450 (trade pott, worker, 10g for alpha), China 2590, Persia 2150 and Sumeria 1990 before returning for MP duty
W2 -> south contacting Vij 3150 (trade BW + 10g for alpha) returning to repulse barbs
2550BC settle Bombay as planned, Research writing -> CoL
2350BC Madras
2190BC Trade China wheel for Alpha + 7g, trade Vij WC + 25g for wheel
2030BC Trade Persia Mas + worker for writing, trade China IW + 7g for writing
1990BC Trade Sum Myst + 13g for Alpha
1790BC Bangalore on S coast (Lam got gems early), Research CoL -> Phil
1600BC Contact Arab scout on my borders – trade Poly + 101g for CoL. Est emb with Lam, Vij & China
1575BC Research Phil –. Rep free -> revolt, -> maths
1525BC Become Republic, Calcutta by horses
1500BC Lahore on dyes
1475BC Karachi
1400BC Maths -> const. Trade Persia HBR+25g for math, gift math all around
1325BC Kohlapur
1200BC Jaipur
1150BC embassies with Persia, Arabs & Sum – no-one has iron connected except me!
IT Barb horse emerges from fog to killl settler
1100BC Bengal. Research Constr -> curr
1000BC 11 cities, pop 30, 2 granaries, 2 rax, 2 temples,3 settlers, 7 workers + 2 foreign, 1 warr, 5 swords – iron +1 lux connected – almost ready for war with Lam
950BC Chittagong
925BC Punjab. Research currency -> MA
Gift Persia (Eng) and Sumeria (Feud) to MA – they wont trade at present so research mono
Gifting maths failed to speed research as I still had to self research curr & const, but gifting scientific civs to AI paid off
At this time I had not met Japan - I have much later contacted them to qualify for this spoiler
Goal now is all out military using swords v Lam then WEs v rest

 

[solenoozerec]

A question about ancient-age research.

In recent COTMs, a number of players have been making it to the Middle Ages before the QSC period is up; 1200BC (MiniMe) being the earliest example in this game.

How is this achieved?

I entered MA a turn before 1000BC. I do not remember details, but I submitted a very detailed QSC log (I do not have it with me though).

However, I remember that I did not gift any techs to AI. I researched Republic slingshot myself, plus Math, Construction and Currency.
I am not sure, but I think I traded the rest from AI before researching Math.

It is also clear that even without gifting it was possible to do it faster, as I did some mistakes:
1. I got my capitol to riot.
2. I did not road golden hill as earlier as I should.
3. I had only 4 contacts.
4. I did not meet barbs.

I am sure that with gifting, scientists and careful planning it is possible to beat MiniMe's 1200BC date on this map. This map in combination with commercial civ is great for research. I never entered into MA in QSC before.

 

[killercane]

A question about ancient-age research.

In recent COTMs, a number of players have been making it to the Middle Ages before the QSC period is up; 1200BC (MiniMe) being the earliest example in this game.

How is this achieved? I am hazarding a guess that it's done by gifting every tech to every known civ as soon as it's learned (or getting the best trade!), so as to make sure that they're working on something fresh and relevant?

So you're at a point where you can reasonably assume that some are researching Tech A, some Tech B, and the player Tech C (e.g. Polytheism, Construction, Currency) hoping to use the Currency monopoly as leverage for the others.

Well I entered in 1225 by working the gold hill at the expense of growth on almost every turn after the second city was built. I made sure everyone had alphabet and masonry as early as possible so they would get math (chances are about 50/50 I think on that) and gave them all mysticism so they would go for poly. Then a research of currency and construction, trading for poly and mapmaking, and you are in the Middle Ages.

That particular tech outline works for most C3C monarch/emperor games, with occasionally grabbing pottery (and perhaps alphabet if you dont start with it/cant trade for it) first in some cases. With the start on this map you could plan out pretty much your whole QSC research to within a couple turns, depending on if you had to research math or not. Such was not the case with say, COTM 12 with all the deserts and such.

 

[MiniMe]

In recent COTMs, a number of players have been making it to the Middle Ages before the QSC period is up; 1200BC (MiniMe) being the earliest example in this game.

killercane got to MA one turn before me. And I am very curious about reports from other players as well. I had to self-research Math and 'lost' 5 turns doing that. I dont normally get to MA that early, it was just because the area was overflowing with cows and rivers, so that made for an explosive start.

I normally trade all techs away rather quickly to make sure AIs dont research techs already discovered. But dont know the criteria that makes an AI select one tech over another when selecting what to research. Except I think its common knowledge that AI normally favours Construction over Currency.

 

[Jove]

Regarding Ancient Age research:
People have already made some great points, let me add what hasn't been said. My main principle in AA research is "Sacrifice Production to Science." It's simple. Given the choice between building a road and a mine, build the road, get the extra currency. I try to road along rivers, skipping other improvements along the way until they're really necessary. If there is a chance to increase food production with irrigation, prioritize that over roads, population is better than coins at the beginning.
The second side to this is keep a limited military. I didn't follow this point so well and lost a handful of turns as a result in cotm15. If you're paying an extra 5gpt for units that aren't doing anything, that's 5gpt that can't go to science. It'll add up. In republic, obviously one cure to this is to build as many cities as you can. I like to have 2/3 or more of my units workers at the beginning if it works out that way. Just don't go so nuts with this that you get killed by the AI.
And of course research at max, trade shrewdly. The trading varies game to game, I don't have a prinicple for you there.
Hope that helps!

 

[Paul#42]

@Jove
Now this discussion kind of enlightens me and I would like to play this one again instantly... (pity I barely have enough time to finish the game in time).
I was thinking I really rushed through ages but reading all these reports I feel stuck...

I guess I'm too anxious to give to much knowledge to the AI, my confidence in keeping (regaining) the tech lead is too small. E.g. at one point I was ahead Literature, Code of Law and Republic and kept the monopoly because the AI had nothing to offer for it. The whole AT I did get one single worker offered! I feel bad if I give up a monopoly with only 50g to get from all AI.
I went to the right direction by spreading out Maths faster but Only could get construction one turn before self researching it.
The other point You mention, priorize roads over mines is quite convincing. I wonder why I did not think about that obvious point before.

Of course I decide by looking at the city carefully everytime I plan to road/mine a tile, maybe roading is not so sexy because You don't see the instant benefit. This adds on to several turns to MA I guess.

I reached MA about 750 BC, comfortably ahead of the AI. I guess I like feeling comfortable more than feeling challenged...

 

[civ_steve]

barbs 'fixed'

Predator challenges/bonuses have been somewhat different lately. There's definitely a challenge in not being able to upgrade to WE (particularly for kicking off a GA!), but the side effect is you can build Horsemen forever by disconnecting Saltpeter, which the average Open player can not do. Just an observation.

I decided to go one better then my COTM14 OCC 20K, and try for a 'low' number of cities 20K; five-ish but I'm not really counting, and not saying its a strict 5CC type of game. The other thing I decided to do was to wait on building Temple until after becoming Republic; probably silly since we are Religious so the Temple is pretty darn cheap. I noted this effect in COTM14 - the early Temple gained me about 240 extra culture over the course of the game. I figure if I waited until I was Republic and cash rushed the building, that might be 60 turns later, so 60 turns at 2 cpt, and another 60 turns at 4 cpt instead of 2cpt means an extra 240 culture vs a cash rushed Temple, which is only 2 turns. But if those 60 extra shields early on gain me an extra early Great Wonder, that impact is considerably more than 240 culture I would be losing. Cheap 30 shield Temple is less likely to gain me the extra early Great Wonder, but I went for it anyway.

Founded to the East, and got up to 26 spt at size12. Built 3 Warriors and sent them East, West and North, making contacts fairly quickly. Next was Settler that founded Bombay near the West Cow.

Learned Writing in 2430 BC; by that time had all 1st tier Techs and Mysticism by trading my initial Techs. Kept Writing as a Monopoly, so had easy time getting to Code of Laws, Philosophy and Republic (learned in 1450 BC). I didn't revolt until 1150 BC, since I wanted to be sure to get my first 2 Wonders under my belt. Republic in 1075 BC. Finally entered Middle Ages in 410 BC as result of gaining last AA Techs from Great Library. I'll try to add a 1000 BC picture later, but my empire is pretty small since I was focusing on the 20K goal.

Cultural Buildings in Delhi:
3950 BC - Palace (1 cpt) 0
1425 BC - Oracle (6 cpt) 108
1150 BC - Mausoleum of Mausollus (8 cpt) 176
1125 BC - Temple (10 cpt) 176
750 BC - Hanging Gardens (14 cpt) 320
430 BC - Great Library (24 cpt) 554
410 BC - Library (27 cpt) 581

It looks like there's a real horse (er, elephant) race going on for 20K this month!

 

[PaperBeetle]

I settle east because I was not sure if western cow was on river.

A couple of people said similar things... just right click the cow, and if it is listed as having commerce, it must be on the river.
From a fog-gazing point of view, I thought the river was much more noticeable using Warpstorm's terrain than the Firaxis terrain screenshot on the pre-release forum.