Could Calvinism Appeal to You?

Could Calvinism Appeal to You?

  • I am already a Calvinist!

    Votes: 1 3.7%
  • Yes, it could appeal. It makes sense.

    Votes: 1 3.7%
  • No, the theology is all wrong (please explain)

    Votes: 4 14.8%
  • No, its points of belief are too harsh. God would not abandon anybody!

    Votes: 6 22.2%
  • I am not a Christian. However, if I were a Christian, I'd believe in it.

    Votes: 1 3.7%
  • I am not a Christian. However, if I were a Christian, I wouldn't believe in it!

    Votes: 3 11.1%
  • I am not a Christian and I don't care

    Votes: 11 40.7%

  • Total voters
    27

Pangur Bán

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Reformed Theology, Calvinism and Presbyterianism is the main religion of Scotland, N.Ireland and Holland and is prominent elsewhere, such as the USA, Canada and New Zealand. (It almost triumphed in France, England and the former Byzantine Empire). However, most "religious" people in those countries, don't know the implications of their beliefs, or rather, of their nominal church allegiance.

Here is a summary of Calvinism that I found on the Web:


Reformed Theology

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

James Montgomery Boice

Reformed theology gets its name from the sixteenth century Protestant Reformation, with its distinct theological emphases, but it is theology solidly based on the Bible itself. Believers in the reformed tradition regard highly the specific contributions of such people as Martin Luther, John Knox, and particularly John Calvin, but they also find their strong distinctives in the giants of the faith before them, such as Anselm and Augustine, and ultimately in the letters of Paul and the teachings of Jesus Christ. Reformed Christians hold to the doctrines characteristic of all Christians, including the Trinity, the true deity and true humanity of Jesus Christ, the necessity of Jesus' atonement for sin, the church as a divinely ordained institution, the inspiration of the Bible, the requirement that Christians live moral lives, and the resurrection of the body. They hold other doctrines in common with evangelical Christians, such as justification by faith alone, the need for the new birth, the personal and visible return of Jesus Christ, and the Great Commission. What, then, is distinctive about reformed theology


1. The Doctrine of Scripture.

The reformed commitment to Scripture stresses the Bible's inspiration, authority, and sufficiency. Since the Bible is the Word of God and so has the authority of God Himself, reformed people affirm that this authority is superior to that of all governments and all church hierarchies. This conviction has given reformed believers the courage to stand against tyranny and has made reformed theology a revolutionary force in society. The sufficiency of Scripture means that it does not need to be supplemented by new or ongoing special revelation. The Bible is the entirely sufficient guide for what we are to believe and how we are to live as Christians.


The Reformers, and particularly John Calvin, stressed the way the objective, written Word and the inner, supernatural ministry of the Holy Spirit work together, the Holy Spirit illuminating the Word to God's people. The Word without the illumination of the Holy Spirit remains a closed book. The supposed leading of the Spirit without the Word leads to errors and excess. The Reformers also insisted upon the believers' right to study the Scripture for themselves. Though not denying the value of trained teachers, they understood that the clarity of Scripture on matters essential for salvation makes the Bible the property of every believer. With this right of access always comes the responsibility of careful and accurate interpretation




2. The Sovereignty of God.

For most reformed people the chief and most distinctive article of the creed is God's sovereignty. Sovereignty means rule, and the sovereignty of God means that God rules over His creation with absolute power and authority. He determines what is going to happen, and it does happen. God is not alarmed, frustrated, or defeated by circumstances, by sin, or by the rebellion of His creatures.




3. The Doctrines of Grace.
Reformed theology emphasizes the doctrines of grace, best known by the acronym TULIP, though this does not correspond to the best possible names for the five doctrines.




T stands for total depravity. This does not mean that all persons are as bad as they could possibly be. It means rather that all human beings are affected by sin in every area of thought and conduct so that nothing that comes out of anyone apart from the regenerating grace of God can please God. As far as our relationships to God are concerned, we are all so ruined by sin that no one can properly understand either God or God's ways. Nor do we seek God, unless He is first at work within us to lead us to do so

U stands for unconditional election. An emphasis on election bothers many people, but the problem they feel is not actually with election; it is with depravity. If sinners are as helpless in their depravity as the Bible says they are, unable to know and unwilling to seek God, then the only way they could possibly be saved is for God to take the initiative to change and save them. This is what election means. It is God choosing to save those who, apart from His sovereign choice and subsequent action, certainly would perish.

L stands for limited atonement. The name is potentially misleading, for it seems to suggest that reformed people want somehow to restrict the value of Christ's death. This is not the case. The value of Jesus' death is infinite. The question rather is what is the purpose of Christ's death, and what He accomplished in it. Did Christ intend to make salvation no more than possible? Or did He actually save those for whom He died? Reformed theology stresses that Jesus actually atoned for the sins of those the Father had chosen. He actually propitiated the wrath of God toward His people by taking their judgment upon Himself, actually redeemed them, and actually reconciled those specific persons to God. A better name for "limited" atonement would be "particular" or "specific" redemption.

I stands for irresistible grace. Left to ourselves we resist the grace of God. But when God works in our hearts, regenerating us and creating a renewed will within, then what was undesirable before becomes highly desirable, and we run to Jesus just as previously we ran away from Him. Fallen sinners do resist God's grace, but His regenerating grace is effectual. It overcomes sin and accomplishes God's purpose.

P stands for perseverance of the saints. A better name might be "the perseverance of God with the saints," but both ideas are actually involved. God perseveres with us, keeping us from falling away, as we would certainly do if He were not with us. But because He perseveres we also persevere. In fact, perseverance is the ultimate proof of election. We persevere because God preserves us from full and final falling away from Him.




4. The Cultural Mandate.
Reformed theology also emphasizes the cultural mandate, or the obligation of Christians to live actively in society and work for the transformation of the world and its cultures. Reformed people have had various views in this area, depending on the extent to which they believe such a transformation possible But on the whole they agree on two things. First we are called to be in the world and not to withdraw from it. This sets reformed believers apart from monasticism. Second, we are to feed the hungry, clothe the naked, and visit the prisoner. But the chief needs of people are still spiritual, and social work is no adequate substitute for evangelism. In fact, efforts to help people will only be truly effective as their hearts and minds are changed by the gospel. This sets reformed believers apart from, mere humanitarianism. It has been objected to reformed theology that t anyone who believes along reformed lines will lose · all motivation for evangelism. "If God is going to do the work, why should I bother?" But it does not work that way. It is because God does the work that we can be bold to join Him in it, as He commands us to do. We do it joyfully, knowing that our efforts will never be in vain.

Other material on Calvinism:

Links On Calvinism

Burns has a comically portrayed Calvinist minister address his God thus:

"Him who in Heaven does dweel
Him who as it pleases best yourself
Sends one to Heaven and ten to Hell
All for your Glory
And not for any Good or Ill
They've done before You"

(a translation into standard English,
from "Holy Willie's Prayer")

Thus summing up Burn's perception of Calvinism. But this cheaply ignores the fact that Calvinists believe that it is the good who are saved by God's intervention - that's why they are good in the first place.

The question I'm asking is, could you believe a theology which, nevertheless, asserts that most people are condemned to infernal damnation, to burn forever and ever? And/Or that most are unable to change this and that all people have no independent control?

I appreciate that many people, if not most, on this forum are not religious. But, it would be more useful if those among those people who wish to contribute to this thread tried to empathize temporarily with those who already believe in the Christian God and his scriptures. I also appreciate that topics of this nature are marginal to the interest of most posters. But it's a topic that interests me, so I'm trying it out. :)
 
I thought this thread was going to deal with Calvin & Hobbes :mad:

Its tough to reconcile the idea that almost everyone you know is doomed to eternal damnation... likewise, its tough to accept it yourself, that you're predestined to get screwed later anyway, to remain pious in your beliefs. I mean, if you're damned anyway, you might as well enjoy your life here... right?
 
Originally posted by Greadius
I thought this thread was going to deal with Calvin & Hobbes :mad:

Its tough to reconcile the idea that almost everyone you know is doomed to eternal damnation... likewise, its tough to accept it yourself, that you're predestined to get screwed later anyway, to remain pious in your beliefs. I mean, if you're damned anyway, you might as well enjoy your life here... right?

So does that mean that you accept the theology?
 
Greadius wrote:

I thought this thread was going to deal with Calvin & Hobbes.

:lol:

During my student says we had to take these field trips to these little wooden Hungarian Református (Reformist, or sometimes called "Old Calvinist") churches in Transylvania that had beautiful wooden ceilings in criss-cross pattern (What's the English word for that term?!?), with each panel individually hand-painted with some local folk pattern. It was an extremely intimate setting and clearly a church for a real community. It reminded me of a quote from an English journalist who once said of Bach's music that "It was so beautiful it almost made me believe in God again."

I've been to other Reformist churches in Hungary that were absolutely plain inside with no decor, no crosses, no paintings, nothing. You are meant to just sit there and focus on God, with no distractions whatsoever. As one raised a Catholic with our extremely over-decorated churches - especially that architectural vomit called baroque, thank you &$^#! Habsburgs - it was quite shocking.

I'm afraid that while Calvinist social activism is very appealing to me - Hello, Wycliff and Wesley - its predeterminism rings a bit hollow and dis-compassionate. And, quite frankly, its zeal for proselytizing scares me a bit.
 
Yay, five point Calvinism. :D Two tests ago in Church History (I made a B on that test). :king:


I agree with MOST of Calvinism, I should say. Of course, if we were talking about Calvin and Hobbes, I'd definitely say I'm a Calvinist. ;)
 
No way. Are you trying to make me a heretic?:crazyeye: j/k

I simply don't believe it is the correct theory. If you want mine, look up Roman Catholic on your search engine.:p The whole pre-condemned thing is weird. We may have some control over destiny.
 
Originally posted by Greadius
I thought this thread was going to deal with Calvin & Hobbes :mad:

Its tough to reconcile the idea that almost everyone you know is doomed to eternal damnation... likewise, its tough to accept it yourself, that you're predestined to get screwed later anyway, to remain pious in your beliefs. I mean, if you're damned anyway, you might as well enjoy your life here... right?

Me too
 
I stay with the preCalvin group. I dont know about europe and much of the US, but I find Calvanists to be isolationist and judgemental, especially concerning anything to do with the Roman church. I take issue on both counts. In fairness, Catholics return the favor.

I never had any troubke believing that everyone is sliding down to the pit. The problem is believing that anyone is redeemable. Man is not perfectable in any real sense, at least not in this world.

Where I have the most troubke is in the belief that no one can clearly know one's eventual fate. I never understood where it fit in to the larger scheme, for one thing. There is merit in the sense that no one can be truly objective about themselves, but only that far. If one is to believe any of the promises, then the promise that anyone with faith is saved applies.

J
 
I'm much more of a Hobbsian.
 
So for a moment I will throw aside casual comments to speak my beliefs.

I am neither a devout Christian nor a Satanist (despite my user name). My British ancestors came to North America in the 17th Century because of Calvinism. I reject its' ideals because it is a belief that relies on the flawed nature of humans as a central point. Original sin relies on human evil for its' raison d'etre. If humans are evil and are creatures of original sin then why did God create us? To lord truth over us? I can not believe in this. Calvinism is a cynical religion that relies on a vengeful bastard as a diety. I will never warship such a God, rather I would fight him ( though I do not believe that it should come to this).

The question of where the Big Bang came from implies a God to my thinking but I cannot abide by a spiteful God when real life evidence points to the power of a loving one. Have any of you tried to walk this earth with love in your heart? I am sure that most of you have and can attest to the power of it in the long run, such ideas do not jibe with the notion of a vengeful God in the Calvinist tradition. IMHO Calvinism was a product of its' times and reflects more on human beliefs than anything divine. If there is a God, and God cares about humans, then how can such an entity love humans but condem them to Hell for using the reason that God gave us?

Methinks Calvinism was a product of 17th century religion and politics, God has nothing to do with it. (Actually if you pressed me, I would call myself a Christian in the pre-Constantine tradition).
 
No human being living on this earth has the knowledge of any afterlife.

Or any way of finding out, without dying.

And no human has the right to tell you or me that we are going to some 'hell' he has invented.

Thus, I reject this human-controlled religious regime of Calvinism, which is even named after a human being.

To me that is not divine.
 
Well Calgacus. I was a calvinist until I was 17 (29 now) (Read Curt's recent thread on 'why do / don't you beleive' to see why). The majortiy of my family is still calvinist. And yes, they do beleive in the whole pre-condemned thing. One of the most impressive things I have seen:

A few years ago my cousin was suffering 'leukemia' (english?: bloodcancer...). On a certain moment doctors told he had only a few months to live. That night my grandfather came to our house to inform us and to let go his emotions. It was his 5th grandson, but the first one with all names exactly the same as his. He was crying (never saw him do that before) and spoke the words:

I am affraid we are not allowed to keep him.

Man! The unconditional beleive and trust in God and his actions he has! He simply beleives God has chosen this to happen in his life.

The best thing is that my cousin is a healthy 6 year old boy now! So the doctors were wrong and God is good.......

BTW: the option: 'I once was a calvinist, but I saw the ligth' is not in the poll :( .
 
1. The Doctrine of Scripture.

The reformed commitment to Scripture stresses the Bible's inspiration, authority, and sufficiency. Since the Bible is the Word of God and so has the authority of God Himself, reformed people affirm that this authority is superior to that of all governments and all church hierarchies. This conviction has given reformed believers the courage to stand against tyranny and has made reformed theology a revolutionary force in society. The sufficiency of Scripture means that it does not need to be supplemented by new or ongoing special revelation. The Bible is the entirely sufficient guide for what we are to believe and how we are to live as Christians.


The Reformers, and particularly John Calvin, stressed the way the objective, written Word and the inner, supernatural ministry of the Holy Spirit work together, the Holy Spirit illuminating the Word to God's people. The Word without the illumination of the Holy Spirit remains a closed book. The supposed leading of the Spirit without the Word leads to errors and excess. The Reformers also insisted upon the believers' right to study the Scripture for themselves. Though not denying the value of trained teachers, they understood that the clarity of Scripture on matters essential for salvation makes the Bible the property of every believer. With this right of access always comes the responsibility of careful and accurate interpretation
The only thing I would disagree with is the believe that you can only understand the truth if God allows you to see it. This flies in the face of the actual scripture. Once you chose to believe then the Holy Spirit can guide you, and you will come to a better understanding of the Word. However, you can come to Christ without knowledge of the word or intervention of the Holy Spirit. A lot of Christians claim a moment of revelation, a point at which they finally accepted the Grace of God. It can be argued way as to which came first, God’s inspiration or the true knowledge. Does God help you? Yes. Does God want you? Yes. Does God make the choice? No. God gave us free will and Adam and Eve used it to eat of the fruit. Each of us uses it to determine our way in life.




2. The Sovereignty of God.

For most reformed people the chief and most distinctive article of the creed is God's sovereignty. Sovereignty means rule, and the sovereignty of God means that God rules over His creation with absolute power and authority. He determines what is going to happen, and it does happen. God is not alarmed, frustrated, or defeated by circumstances, by sin, or by the rebellion of His creatures.
True to a point. However, again the main sticking point is predetermanism. The Bible clearly puts forth free will. God can change things as it suits him, however by giving us free will, he has also given us the power to decide our own fates. I believe that God effects things every day, but through those who chose to follow him.




3. The Doctrines of Grace.
Reformed theology emphasizes the doctrines of grace, best known by the acronym TULIP, though this does not correspond to the best possible names for the five doctrines.




T stands for total depravity. This does not mean that all persons are as bad as they could possibly be. It means rather that all human beings are affected by sin in every area of thought and conduct so that nothing that comes out of anyone apart from the regenerating grace of God can please God. As far as our relationships to God are concerned, we are all so ruined by sin that no one can properly understand either God or God's ways. Nor do we seek God, unless He is first at work within us to lead us to do so
It is by Grace alone that we are saved. But, even in the bible, God shows that he can be pleased by the unsaved and displeased by those who are saved. No one is so far gone that Christ will not accept him or her. But Christ clearly states that it is you who has to ask. Why would this be so if he had already determined who it was that was going to be saved?

U stands for unconditional election. An emphasis on election bothers many people, but the problem they feel is not actually with election; it is with depravity. If sinners are as helpless in their depravity as the Bible says they are, unable to know and unwilling to seek God, then the only way they could possibly be saved is for God to take the initiative to change and save them. This is what election means. It is God choosing to save those who, apart from His sovereign choice and subsequent action, certainly would perish.
See above.

L stands for limited atonement. The name is potentially misleading, for it seems to suggest that reformed people want somehow to restrict the value of Christ's death. This is not the case. The value of Jesus' death is infinite. The question rather is what is the purpose of Christ's death, and what He accomplished in it. Did Christ intend to make salvation no more than possible? Or did He actually save those for whom He died? Reformed theology stresses that Jesus actually atoned for the sins of those the Father had chosen. He actually propitiated the wrath of God toward His people by taking their judgment upon Himself, actually redeemed them, and actually reconciled those specific persons to God. A better name for "limited" atonement would be "particular" or "specific" redemption.
Yes, Christ accepted that bitter cup in the garden and drank it to the last. However, he paid for the sins of everyone, those who had gone before and those yet to come. In several places in the Bible, Christ rebukes those who would turn away anyone for any reason. Christ never turned away anyone who asked for his Grace. He accepted prostitutes, beggars, and lepers. Several times the disciples thought to shield him from the worse sort, he would have none of it. All who ask are answered.

I stands for irresistible grace. Left to ourselves we resist the grace of God. But when God works in our hearts, regenerating us and creating a renewed will within, then what was undesirable before becomes highly desirable, and we run to Jesus just as previously we ran away from Him. Fallen sinners do resist God's grace, but His regenerating grace is effectual. It overcomes sin and accomplishes God's purpose.
Believe precedes Grace. In every case in the Bible, believe came first.

P stands for perseverance of the saints. A better name might be "the perseverance of God with the saints," but both ideas are actually involved. God perseveres with us, keeping us from falling away, as we would certainly do if He were not with us. But because He perseveres we also persevere. In fact, perseverance is the ultimate proof of election. We persevere because God preserves us from full and final falling away from Him.
This is an interesting one and is something that is argued by almost every Christian sect. Once you are saved, can you then fall from grace? Is Judas saved or condemned? My belief is that you can indeed fall from Grace. Faith is like anything else in life, if you do not nurture it, it will wither. The devil can temp even the strongest believer.
 
Originally posted by Becka
Of course, if we were talking about Calvin and Hobbes, I'd definitely say I'm a Calvinist. ;)

My first thought after seeing the thread title was "I'm more of a Hobbesist."

EDIT: Now I see Antonius beat me to it :(
 
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