Churches close amidst declining attendence

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For age groups under 40 in this country, over half of people do some sort of organised sport participation. That's certainly way higher than church attendance has been since like, 1950.
Pretty astonishing. In rural Ohio, where I presently live, I don't even know recreational league percentages, but I imagine it's less than 5% if you exclude high-school and college athletes. Doesn't meaningfully happen once outta school, really.

Yeah social life is basically a desert if you aren't religious here. Alas, my description of two networks, church and drugs, is accurate.

There's the work network! It pretty much falls apart immediately if you quit, but, eh, is what it is. Best you're gonna do.
 
The burbs seem to have leagues through gymnasium memberships. The fancier ones seem busier, but what do I know? It'd make sense with the upper middle class people being skinnier. Maybe some more rural places have stuff through the park district, but those usually seem almost entirely aimed at juveniles. Book club at the library? Ohio still have township libraries?
 
None of these things are possible. I get by on jabber jawing at work with people I don't really like. No other option.

Like that for most people I know.
 
Maybe form a a group.... :D
Not possible.

Social inertia has its own mass, and when it sets in, it can't be easily counteracted by conscious effort. People think it can, seems to be intuitive, but there are barriers.

Say church network folds. I was never a part of one personally, but say it's done. There's no other game in town. What happens in that circumstance? It becomes normal to clock in, clock out, go home, do solitary activities(games at most). Not just for you. It's true for 90% of the guys there. Becomes the norm. You try, it's exceptionally contrary to the norm. You're a weirdo, and people do not socialize with weirdos. Effort will almost surely fail and not only that, it'll actually cost you, reputationally.

I'm 34. Most guys in my peer group are basically all in the same boat but nobody really tries for that reason. I was driving home from the gas station a little while ago, noticed bars were all empty, and it's THE bar night. It's just the age I guess.

Consequently I don't really celebrate the fall of Christianity, despite otherwise being anti-faith in nearly every conceivable philosophical inclination. Lotta people gonna be lost, not because they lost God, but because they lost people.
 
You're 34? I'm 43 and alone again. Who the ef cares if you don't believe the same. Who the f cares if your reputation isn't stellar with people you aren't relying on anyways? The days are few and the hour comes fast. If you think the socialization of a church is something good in life, then agree on the parts you agree on. Even marriages aren't much different than that. They're a public statement of official attempted cooperation. The activity must be engaged in, the change comes after.
 
obese, etc. have all made their public debuts and been formally introduced into society.
Obese aren't a class of people 'introduced' to society, they're manufactured by society.

Obesity as some sort of identity is encouraged by food industry because people consuming twice what they need means twice as much money for them.

If a secular alternative communal meeting is meant to be created, I would support its creation, even if done formally, by the state. In absence of that, I don't think churches can be considered negative on the whole: if there is no better alternative available, decline will follow. Or, more menacingly, unhealthy alternative forms of community will arise. Locally, there are two real extracurricular(so to speak) networks in existence for those under 50: the church network, and the drug network. The second arises not from lack of faith, of course, but the pain of isolation and its consequent lack of hope.

I'm a lifelong atheist and believe Christianity is mortally wounded(historical timelines here). I don't celebrate its decline as much as I used to. There's something of real value lost that has nothing to do with faith.
In the late 00s/early 10s I worked at a game shop in Southern NJ.

The owner started w the idea to sell fancy chess sets and other board games, then realized there was a demand for a chess club, then realized chess clubs make no money (and chess players are cheap) so started selling magic the gathering cards and running events.

In the age of Amazon selling chess sets and settlers of Catan at almost his wholesale price the demise was inevitable but it was a fun spot for awhile & did a lot of social good.

But it's really hard for a business like that to survive in the internet age. Momentum towards building community is hard won and easily lost.

One funny memory, boss started a social board game night that was free, forgot what day maybe Tues.

Anyway almost no one ever showed but plenty of people commented that it sounded great and they'd love to show up.

One night boss was quiet drunk and decided to message everyone who said they'd show and didn't.

For instance Martha : "sounds amazing, I love games and meeting new people"
"You know Martha to meet new people you have to ACTUALLY LEAVE YOUR HOUSE"

and he went on down the list. I discouraged this behavior but it was amusing.

The allure of hiding in one's room behind a screen is a tough nut to crack but the world needs to try and keep trying.

Happy new year y'all
 
Obese aren't a class of people 'introduced' to society, they're manufactured by society.

Obesity as some sort of identity is encouraged by food industry because people consuming twice what they need means twice as much money for them.


In the late 00s/early 10s I worked at a game shop in Southern NJ.

The owner started w the idea to sell fancy chess sets and other board games, then realized there was a demand for a chess club, then realized chess clubs make no money (and chess players are cheap) so started selling magic the gathering cards and running events.

In the age of Amazon selling chess sets and settlers of Catan at almost his wholesale price the demise was inevitable but it was a fun spot for awhile & did a lot of social good.

But it's really hard for a business like that to survive in the internet age. Momentum towards building community is hard won and easily lost.

One funny memory, boss started a social board game night that was free, forgot what day maybe Tues.

Anyway almost no one ever showed but plenty of people commented that it sounded great and they'd love to show up.

One night boss was quiet drunk and decided to message everyone who said they'd show and didn't.

For instance Martha : "sounds amazing, I love games and meeting new people"
"You know Martha to meet new people you have to ACTUALLY LEAVE YOUR HOUSE"

and he went on down the list. I discouraged this behavior but it was amusing.

The allure of hiding in one's room behind a screen is a tough nut to crack but the world needs to try and keep trying.

Happy new year y'all

Generally you have to be the one organizing things and expect a 50% drop out rate.

I do D&D lol
 
I find the social fabric question interesting. Religious communities provide just that - community (and sometimes exclusionary communities, depending on the beliefs). Is the social fabric falling because churches are closing, or are churches closing because of declining maintenance of that social fabric? Probably some of both.

I'm not religious, so in isolation I don't see declining church attendance as a problem. But declining social engagement in general is a problem.
The allure of hiding in one's room behind a screen is a tough nut to crack but the world needs to try and keep trying.

Happy new year y'all
The keep trying part is key. I've become more of a believer that there can be social communities - offline ones - that provide that social environment that churches have often provided, but it requires effort to be put in, repeatedly, and the more people that are trying to form connections, the more likely it is to succeed.

I think it helps to live in a walkable area, and as the automobile has gained popularity over the past 75 years, fewer areas count as walkable. Walking around, you eventually get to know your neighbors, and tend to go to spots that are within walking distance repeatedly. Driving, you might go to more places but never go the same places enough to establish connections. Or you might do curbside pickup of groceries or go through a drive-through and minimize your opportunities to meet people. In 1925, yes, you'd likely meet people via church, but the opportunities to meet people casually in the neighborhood were also much higher than in car-centric locations today.

My advice for someone looking to increase socialization in 2025 would be, if need be, try moving to somewhere new-to-you. It's easier to break inertia when everything isn't the same as it always was. And then, make repeated efforts to go new places, talk with new people, see what venues appeal to you. Maybe it's a church, maybe it's a game shop, maybe it's the local trivia night. Not every social effort will succeed but given a large enough sample, some will. I struck up conversations with two chaps at New Years Eve events after my friends had turned in early, and as I was about to leave one of them said, "Thanks for making my evening a little less boring." And that's kind of what it's about, at least at first. Who knows, if I lived in the same area, maybe I'd run into him again and we'd become friends.
 
On the specific topic of trying to counter declining church attendance? That's more difficult, but I suspect one of the challenges is making the people who aren't already members feel like they can start attending and not feel like outcasts because they don't know all the scripture yet. The local Jehovah's Witnesses do a pretty good job of this, including offering bible classes, and that's probably part of why their attendance has been steady (although they also have a reputation for discouraging socializing with non-Witnesses, which likely deters some who would otherwise start attending or studying).

But I don't see that from other church organizations - perhaps a sign saying "All Are Welcome", but not any sort of "front lawn open house, ask questions and learn" or something of that sort that could be a way for someone to learn a bit before committing to a whole service. Given the variety of styles of churches and worship services, that may be a missed opportunity.
 
the Catholics have been baseline the most accepting and least punitive group when it comes to living with neurodiversity.

Uh-huh. That must be why the Catholic ex-Education Minister we had here decided not to provide enough funding during the pandemic to keep the Educational Assistants employed while the kids were switched to home learning. It flew completely over her head that neurodiverse kids who need help in school don't stop needing that help because their classroom was changed from the school to the kitchen table. She figured, "their parents are home, so THEY can help" - and it never occurred to her that the parents aren't necessarily trained for that; it's why they applied for an EA in the first place.

One of the biggest changes in US culture over the past 70 years has been that previously marginalized or hidden elements of society have been allowed out of their enclosures and into public view. In the 1950s the gay doctors at Hopkins Hospital Baltimore were talked about in hushed tones as being "different" when they attended parties. Over the years gays, blacks, yellows, browns, mixed, ******ed, disabled, queer, trans, cross dressers, obese, etc. have all made their public debuts and been formally introduced into society. We are still in transition.

Some years ago on a different gaming forum, there was a woman in a group I'm part of who worked the customer service counter at a Walmart in one of the Maritime provinces in Canada. She'd constantly complain about her job, how annoying it was if someone wanted to buy more than one turkey at Thanksgiving (it made sense to me that they might buy two and freeze one for Christmas, if the price was good), and she carried on about "You can always tell when it's cheque day because the unemployed, seniors, and disabled all come out to shop and there are so many walkers in the way."

She went on and on about how annoyed she was - we (disabled people who use walkers) were in her way, we didn't bag our purchases fast enough, we got in the way of other customers (ie. able-bodied people), and so on. I didn't want to start a fight in the thread, so I PM'd and said, "You are complaining about people like me - I'm disabled, I use a walker and canes, and it looks like the whole tone of your posts boils down to how DARE we think we're good enough to come out in public and shop like "normal" people, and we should just get out of your way and stay home. Feel free to correct me if I've misunderstood."

So she got in a huff and posted publicly that "I'm not going to talk about my job anymore because SOMEBODY complained." She wasn't honest enough to say why, and of course everyone else got in a huff.

I ended up going public with this anyway, explaining that all those complaints about seniors and disabled people being an annoyance and in the way were making me feel like <solid organic waste> and that she didn't think people like me deserved to go shopping like so-called "normal" people.

A couple of them said, "Well, you didn't tell us you were one of those people" (iow, 'we wouldn't have said all these insulting things if we'd known you were part of that group and reading our posts' - like this whole thing was my fault. My take on it is why should I have to tell people? Sometimes I do, and sometimes I don't. But if I see bigotry like that, of course I'm going to speak up.

How about not airing your (general 'your' not directed at anyone here) bigotry in public in the first place, and keeping it unsaid?

I suppose this was useful in a way, though. It taught me who among that group of people I could and couldn't trust. As for that customer service person, I'm just glad that she's on the opposite side of the country and I will never encounter her in person.

I don't mind apologizing if I get in someone's way, and I try to get out of the way as quickly as possible. But I will not apologize for going out in public and existing.

Nonsense. People can and do meet people in lots of places that are not church or drug only related. Parks, sports events, bars, museums, local festivals, work and after hours work events, educational events or classes, etc. Many cities and towns have local events that bring people together. Event internet sites like CFC can be a way for folks to get to know others and socialize.

As I've said, the SCA and SF/F conventions are great places to meet people with a wide variety of interests. Yes, there tends to be a crossover between history buffs, gamers, and SF/F fans. But there are also people into cooking, sports, books, computers, science, costuming, and more kinds of crafts and art-related things than I could possibly list.

One guy in the SCA decided that a good way to meet people would be to travel across the country, attending as many SCA events as he could fit into his route and schedule. He's a musician, and often traded his skills at playing at court and for dancing, in return for feast admission.

He attended our Harvest Feast that year, and it was wonderful to have a live musician for the dancing portion of the evening, in lieu of the usual "electronic minstrels". We gave him leftovers so he had enough for a couple of extra meals, and he was off to find his next event.

Walking around, you eventually get to know your neighbors, and tend to go to spots that are within walking distance repeatedly.

Before moving to the north side of the river, I lived in walkable neighborhoods. The basics of what I wanted and needed were within a 10-30 minute walk, whether groceries, library, bookstores, medical clinic, pharmacy, parks, trails, bus stops, and I got to know most of the dogs within a 2-block radius (met their humans later). Most of those dogs fully expected me to stop and talk to them, pet them, give them ear scratches and hugs, and these were quite a variety of breeds. Two of them were German shepherds, and they appointed themselves my security, either escorting me across the street, or if getting out of a vehicle, I rated an escort from the curb to my front door (I'd rescued this dog's puppies from our garage where they'd managed to get in and get trapped, and she was so grateful that she appointed herself my protector).

About the only way to get to know the neighbors where I am now is if there's a fire alarm in the evening. At least half the people here have a cat, so the cat people tend to gather together while waiting for the fire department. The neighborhood isn't walkable at all for me, given the lack of sidewalks on this side of the road, the lack of a traffic light on the corner (making crossing the street very unsafe), and while the nearest grocery store would be walking distance for an able-bodied person, it isn't for someone like me.
 
Church suffers from the same problems as hold music and waiting room reading material.
 
Uh-huh. That must be why the Catholic ex-Education Minister we had here decided not to provide enough funding during the pandemic to keep the Educational Assistants employed while the kids were switched to home learning. It flew completely over her head that neurodiverse kids who need help in school don't stop needing that help because their classroom was changed from the school to the kitchen table. She figured, "their parents are home, so THEY can help" - and it never occurred to her that the parents aren't necessarily trained for that; it's why they applied for an EA in the first place.
I really doubt that's why one of your governmental ministers did anything. I rather doubt they've ever heard of our parish, my town, or that they particularly care how they treat each other down here in my life.

But what, somebody said something vaguely positive about Catholics, so we must fite? I guess, fine: In a church of millions, I have no problem stipulating that there will be more examples than I can find to count of powerful and influential people who meet the definition of group membership that either constantly engage unhelpful or awful behavior or who have at least done so in the past. But if I'm going to cite my lived experience as in line with the goals of an organization known for preaching its goals, I'll cite the preaching: https://www.vaticannews.va/en/pope/...disabled-people-must-not-remain-a-slogan.html
 
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But what, somebody said something vaguely positive about Catholics, so we must fite?
Dissenting opinions are allowed, right?

EDIT

To expand on the abrupt, everyone has an opinion and someone having a positive one isn't going to stop a negative one.

I'd go as far to say that the negative impact of such a large and historic institution is going to relate in a lot of valid anecdotes, and that good anecdotes aren't going to erase the bad. You can say the opposite and it'd be true, but people or even communities finding faith are not a hallmark of the institution. They're a hallmark of faith. I personally respect and value the latter a lot more than the institution itself (even as a dirty atheist - I know others conflate the two).
 
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I didn't report her. I'm not particularly looking for your feedback, but I am not reporting you, either.

Edit: Alrighty. So they represent the institution, conditionally based on if we find the point desirable. I think I understand your point. Now, I wasn't making a point about an institution, historically or now. I was making a point about people. So we're back to the post that started this exchange and your and my tangent from it.
 
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I really doubt that's why one of your governmental ministers did anything. I rather doubt they've ever heard of our parish, my town, or that they particularly care how they treat each other down here in my life.

Sarcasm just whooshes right past you, doesn't it. Ditto the concept of relating one point to another to show that your experience isn't universal.

For people who claim to be oh-so "Christian", there are a lot of thoughtless, bigoted people running the provincial government here, and my MLA - the former Minister of Education - is a prime example.

Before she was in provincial politics, she was part of the Catholic school board here, and saw nothing wrong with either directing the teachers to spin "positive" stories about the native residential schools (aka she's a residential school denier), and she approved a "field trip" to bus high school students to another city to take part in an anti-abortion rally. Gotta train 'em young in the art of intimidation, harassment, and bullying women and girls who are seeking fully legal reproductive health services, and show them the proper way to block sidewalks and roads and parking lots so people going about their lawful daily business can't get past them.

I could write a book about how inappropriately this woman has handled both her cabinet portfolios, starting with cutting funding to public institutions and increasing funding to private and faith-based institutions.
 
I know it's not universal. Hence, "It's been interesting." I belive you when you speak about it. But I don't go out of my way to s**t on the table in counterpoint.
 
Nat Geo has an interesting article on Religion and AI. It is paywalled but interesting. Here are snippets.

How technology is reshaping religion​

Smartphone apps, social media, and artificial intelligence are all making religion more accessible. Is it enough to slow recent declines in religious beliefs?

Looking at demographic data, a simple story about religion in the United States appears: it’s on the decline.

According to Gallup, 98 percent of Americans believed in God in 1952, and only 81 percent did in 2022. Twenty two percent of Americans in a 2023 study by the Pew Research Center identified as spiritual but not religious; 28 percent in 2024 described themselves as atheists, agnostics, or nothing in particular, often called the “nones.” Across North America and Europe, similar numbers track the decline in people affiliated with an organized religion. (The numbers are quite different in the Middle East, South Asia, and Latin America, where religion is growing.)

Villanova theology professor Sister Ilia Delio has closely observed the shifts of faith, belief, and perception. And while she has watched the trends she doesn’t believe that faith in God is vanishing. “It hasn’t gone away, but it’s showing up in a new way,” she says. “That really changes how we think about these questions of God or faith.”
Technology—smartphones, social media, and even artificial intelligence—is fueling a lot of this change, altering the way people find religious teachings, how they find like-minded individuals, and how they pray. Robot priests are guiding people in search of answers to the Big Questions and one church in Switzerland recently unveiled an AI Jesus in one of its confessionals. Might these new technologically assisted ways to reach the masses lead to a religious revival? The future of religion could be a lot stranger than what the demographic data implies.

On Tiktok, religion finds you​

But the demographic data hides a more nuanced story about the future of religion.

God and religion appear to be everywhere in cyberspace. On a computer or phone, you can find a denomination or religion that aligns with your values, or simply a set of ideas that feels like a better match. Fifty years ago, if you had a question about your faith, you might ask your religious leader or a prominent person in your community. “It used to be that a person always went to the local rabbi to ask a question. Today, you don’t go to the local rabbi, you ask a question on Google,” says Pinchas Goldschmidt, president of the Conference of European Rabbis.

Of course, the intermingling of technology and religion is nothing new. The introduction of the printing press in 15th-century Europe made possible the mass production of books. Newly formed Protestant groups used it to spread their revolutionary ideas about Christianity, while the Catholic Church sought to prohibit works considered heresy. In today’s internet-driven information age Sister Ilia notes, “We have everything here at our disposal. So it’s like cherry picking. If I don’t like it, I’m not going to take it. If I like it, I take it.”
This democratization of knowledge is on full display on the internet with social media platforms like Instagram, TikTok, and Douyin jammed with short-form videos and such hashtags as #diwali and #easter. Although some content is created by individuals with religious training, much is produced by others with a fervent calling to post or find like-minded people. Thousands of smartphone apps offer to help you worship the right way and more. There are apps that let Muslims locate prayer spaces as well as halal restaurants. There is an app that shows Buddhist monks demonstrating gravity-defying twirls, leaps, and backflips. “You now have access to religious ideas and practices from around the world that you didn’t really have access to before,” says Robert Geraci, Knight Distinguished Chair for the Study of Religion and Culture at Knox College. “That gives you a new perspective on whatever it is that you in particular perceive.”

Melinda Strauss started as a kosher food blogger and discovered that people were intrigued that she was a modern Orthodox Jew. “I realized that people really don’t know anything about Jews, or about our customs and our laws. So I started answering questions with videos, and it really took off.” She now has 1.3 million TikTok followers and 156,000 followers on Instagram.

Nuns jumping from a cupboard or indicating whether they prefer evening or morning prayer while “It’s Tricky” by the hip-hop group Run DMC is playing is not what you might expect to find among a deeply religious congregation. But the Daughters of St. Paul are a new generation of religious sisters. Their order was established to follow the lead of the Apostle, and they use media to spread the word about Christ. With 157,000 followers on TikTok, they have deservedly earned the nickname Media Nuns. Their mission is helped by their genuine warmth. Says Sister Orianne Pietra René, “Not only are we authentically sharing ourselves, because we like to have fun, but are bringing the whole of who Christ is to the whole of the person who is longing for that joy and that vitality, that fullness of life.”
Back in 2019 Sabah Ahmedi, the imam at Baitul Futuh mosque in London, was in a tea shop with a friend. The two were discussing misconceptions about Islam. That talk inspired Ahmedi to build his Young Imam social media brand to “help people understand Islam better.” He posts almost every day. On his sites, he talks both seriously and with humor about everything from such rituals as ablution—“We have to wash before we offer our prayer, because it’s getting in the mindset of cleanliness”—to his favorite coffees.

Robot priests guide the faithful​

Some religions are even starting to incorporate technology into their worship in the form of robot priests. Gabriele Trovato grew up in the Italian port city of Livorno. As a youth he took for granted the religious iconography that suffuses that largely Catholic nation. “In my hometown we have a lot of sacred art. Statues are part of the landscape. Even in the middle of the streets you see niches with the Virgin Mary,” he says. Based on those statues Trovato, an associate professor at Tokyo’s Shibaura Institute of Technology, crafted SanTO (Sanctified Theomorphic Operator).

The small robot has the appearance of a neoclassical saint. It is designed to be accessible for older people as well as those who are isolated or may have mobility issues. Individuals can use an electric candle to touch SanTO’s hands and ask it a question, accessing an extensive database that contains knowledge of the Bible, prayers, and the lives of the saints.

In Beijing’s Longquan Temple there is a robot named Xian’er. With his yellow robe and somewhat perplexed look, as he chants Buddhist mantras and explains the basic principles of faith. An actual size robotic elephant recently replaced a live and chained one, and it takes part in cruelty-free rituals at the Irinjadappilly Sree Krishna Temple in Thrissur, India.

Meanwhile, in the quiet serenity of Kyoto’s 17th-century Kodaiji Temple stands Mindar, a more than six-foot-tall robot with porcelain-colored skin, a head, hands, arms that can move, and an exposed aluminum skeleton. A mechatronic android with a contemplative gaze that represents Kannon, the bodhisattva of compassion, and can discuss. Zen Buddhism was the aim of Tensho Goto, Kodaiji’s former chief steward. He wanted something with a face that projected an affectionate sense of relatability, so people would feel comfortable with it.

“This was the original hope for Mindar, something that could use machine learning that’s drawing on ancient Buddhist texts,” says Daniel White, a research associate at Cambridge University who studies machines programmed with emotional intelligence. “Could they create an artificial intelligence and artificial life-form that could answer our questions about the nature of reality, about the Buddha in a way that would perhaps be more accu- rate to what the Buddha would actually teach?” To White’s surprise, many believers who approached Mindar seemed open to what it said.

A temple in Japan has also offered funeral services for robots. Back in the late 1990s Sony introduced a mechanical dog called aibo. The Japanese public embraced their robot rovers. Sadly, the machines eventually broke down. The faithful in this largely Buddhist nation believe that all creatures as well as inanimate objects have souls and deserve proper funerals. As White notes, instead of tossing them out, they brought them to Kofukuji Temple in Isumi, where prayers were offered to disambiguate the aibos’ souls and send them to the Pure Land. Head priest Ōi Bungen saw the ceremony as a way to also teach participants the deeper aspects of Buddhist philosophy.

As the religious leaders who convened in Hiroshima know, technology can and should be harnessed to help humanity. The traditions of their religions and all others around the world, though, are personal and sacred. The challenge for the faithful is to be like Miranda, the daughter of the sorcerer Prospero in Shakespeare’s The Tempest, who is beguiled by signs of a world she never knew as she exclaims, “How beauteous mankind is! O brave new world, That has such people in’t.” We can approach these ideas with a curious mind while also viewing them with care. Yet Aldous Huxley’s Brave New World, a 20th-century novel novel named for Miranda’s speech, is a cautionary tale, in which the characters’ lives are dictated by dystopian efficiency in a technologically advanced world devoid of magic and religion. “It’s how we use technology—not to displace religion, but to enhance it,” says Sister Ilia of faith in the digital age. “How can we become more conscious of belonging to one another? How can we become more conscious of a power of life that we name as God?”
 
I know it's not universal. Hence, "It's been interesting." I belive you when you speak about it. But I don't go out of my way to s**t on the table in counterpoint.

:rolleyes:

Once upon a time, your posts weren't vulgar.
 
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