Churches close amidst declining attendence

[GoodEnoughForMe]

Not possible.

Social inertia has its own mass, and when it sets in, it can't be easily counteracted by conscious effort. People think it can, seems to be intuitive, but there are barriers.

Say church network folds. I was never a part of one personally, but say it's done. There's no other game in town. What happens in that circumstance? It becomes normal to clock in, clock out, go home, do solitary activities(games at most). Not just for you. It's true for 90% of the guys there. Becomes the norm. You try, it's exceptionally contrary to the norm. You're a weirdo, and people do not socialize with weirdos. Effort will almost surely fail and not only that, it'll actually cost you, reputationally.

I'm 34. Most guys in my peer group are basically all in the same boat but nobody really tries for that reason. I was driving home from the gas station a little while ago, noticed bars were all empty, and it's THE bar night. It's just the age I guess.

Consequently I don't really celebrate the fall of Christianity, despite otherwise being anti-faith in nearly every conceivable philosophical inclination. Lotta people gonna be lost, not because they lost God, but because they lost people.

I don’t think it has to be this despondent, and it doesn’t have to be church. Maybe that’s the “easy” route towards in-person grouping, but everything from rebuilding unions, to free college tuition, to more accessible public transport, to more public green spaces can help. Even changing parenting culture (did you know tons of parents think sleepovers are bad and too high risk to allow nowadays? lol). Here in America especially we’ve just spent the last 70 years cultivating the opposite of all of that in addition to the church loss. But if it can be taken away I think it can be returned. It will just take decades of work.

 

[Farm Boy]

Dubya tee eff is wrong with sleepovers?

 

[Arwon]

I assume it's the perceived child abuse risk, since most child abuse happens via people known to the victim. It's a bit selective and misguided though, since "known to the victim" often means family members who are often excluded from suspicion and scrutiny.

There's a lot of advice around about sleepover safety and due diligence to help - https://www.caps.org.au/our-newsletter/sleepover-safety

 

[Farm Boy]

That makes me sadder than I already am.

Judgmental, too. I guess at least I'm not that pathetic.

 

[Cutlass]

A thing I think is overlooked in this discussion is that it's the religions themselves that are much to blame. In America a Christian church which is OK with, even supportive of, racism, sexism, transphobia, and a lot of other antisocial behaviors is going to drive a lot of people away.

Someone on the radio the other day was talking about Jimmy Carter. How he'd been a devoted Christian his whole life. But eventually had to leave his church. Not because he had changed, but because the church had. Religion in America has gotten far worse over the past 50 years. As religion has entered the political sphere, it has become more vocal, and more radical. The antiabortion movement is vile and disgusting. By making that a centerpiece of "you have to be this to be a Christian", well then anyone with a soul is driven away from being a Christian. Christian nationalism, White Christianism, Prosperity Christianism, these are all so blatantly fraudulent that it's the Christian faith itself that is the loser. Scandal after scandal after scandal, and nothing is ever done about it. Even 30 years ago no one who called themself a Christian would have voted for Trump. And now he's considered the Savior.

This is why Christianity is in decline.

 

[Zardnaar]

A thing I think is overlooked in this discussion is that it's the religions themselves that are much to blame. In America a Christian church which is OK with, even supportive of, racism, sexism, transphobia, and a lot of other antisocial behaviors is going to drive a lot of people away.

Someone on the radio the other day was talking about Jimmy Carter. How he'd been a devoted Christian his whole life. But eventually had to leave his church. Not because he had changed, but because the church had. Religion in America has gotten far worse over the past 50 years. As religion has entered the political sphere, it has become more vocal, and more radical. The antiabortion movement is vile and disgusting. By making that a centerpiece of "you have to be this to be a Christian", well then anyone with a soul is driven away from being a Christian. Christian nationalism, White Christianism, Prosperity Christianism, these are all so blatantly fraudulent that it's the Christian faith itself that is the loser. Scandal after scandal after scandal, and nothing is ever done about it. Even 30 years ago no one who called themself a Christian would have voted for Trump. And now he's considered the Savior.

This is why Christianity is in decline.

A reason it's been in decline for years.

 

[GoodEnoughForMe]

Yeah religion tying itself to a specific politics when school integration hit was always going to be a posion pill (yes I know there are plenty of counter examples). There was a time when many major religious churches and publications in this country didn’t like abortion but mostly said it’s not their place to interfere with an individual’s choice before god. They accepted political power for a cultural decline, and this time period is what’s left of them hanging on to what they have in increasingly desperate and violent ways. Plus most of the moderate members have filtered out so it’s just the true hardcore fanatics left.

 

[Birdjaguar]

IIRC "free will" is a big deal in Christianity.

 

[Voidwalkin]

don’t think it has to be this despondent, and it doesn’t have to be church. Maybe that’s the “easy” route towards in-person grouping, but everything from rebuilding unions, to free college tuition, to more accessible public transport, to more public green spaces can help. Even changing parenting culture (did you know tons of parents think sleepovers are bad and too high risk to allow nowadays? lol). Here in America especially we’ve just spent the last 70 years cultivating the opposite of all of that in addition to the church loss. But if it can be taken away I think it can be returned. It will just take decades of work.

I mean, I agree with most of this, including "decades of work", which is effectively my lifetime.

I just try to describe it as I see it. Goal is neither to be bleak nor optimistic, just accurate.

 

[Hygro]

Church suffers from the same problems as hold music and waiting room reading material.

@Farm Boy you were supposed to say a thing and then I was gonna say I've read some of my most life changing articles in waiting room magazines.

 

[Narz]

@Farm Boy you were supposed to say a thing and then I was gonna say I've read some of my most life changing articles in waiting room magazines.

You can just write fiction and have characters say just the right thing to illicit your story.

But creating a whole world is difficult so most of us must lay in wait for the right moment.

 

[Gori the Grey]

@Farm Boy you were supposed to say a thing and then I was gonna say I've read some of my most life changing articles in waiting room magazines.

I'll give you the reply I thought of, but didn't bother posting: Church is hold music; this mortal existence is a waiting room.

Don't know how well it serves as the set-up for your thing.

Over in the Civ VII threads, I got people to bite with "Nobody has yet discussed the elephant in the room."

Hard to elicit just the response one wants, online; everyone is guarded.

 

[Farm Boy]

@Farm Boy you were supposed to say a thing and then I was gonna say I've read some of my most life changing articles in waiting room magazines.

One finds old joys when they run thier own time. Maybe a new permutation of an old joy, if it's an adventuresome day(I herkin'd muh jerkin' with lefty today!) If you want to hear new type of tune, a new hymn to resonate with the universe, then you need to be watching and receptive. Waiting rooms have both time and thoughts you wouldn't have self selected if you had all your favorite masturbations*. The radio in the car works similarly. All the stuff I don't like is the price for people showing me new things that I do.

There's probably a deeper wisdom there, but loss overwhelming can obscure it. So I get distracted in these threads by thoughts that come for no other purpose than to defecate on others' resonance.

*back to the point of what's displaced the church time. I'm really guessing a lot of it is actually just jacking off on the phone. Different ideologies have different endgoals, and maximum masturbation is pretty clearly the goal of many of them. They'll be hostile to competing calls.

 

[Birdjaguar]

Moderator Action: Tone it down @Farm Boy

 

[Farm Boy]

What part?

 

[Hygro]

@birdjag It’s a lot easier using one word than saying “self validating comfort zone reinforcing dopamine looping reclusion activity”

Last night I had insomnia and before I left my bed to squeeze in the last dopamine session (finally beat a run in Hades, great halfway point between vampire survivors and Diablo) and I was remembering something I did or was done to me I can’t recall right now because CFC is part of the spectacle.

The only time I could really be alone with my thoughts was after days of being alone with my thoughts.

But I don’t think praising God is being alone with your thoughts either.

 

[Narz]

One finds old joys when they run thier own time. Maybe a new permutation of an old joy, if it's an adventuresome day(I herkin'd muh jerkin' with lefty today!) If you want to hear new type of tune, a new hymn to resonate with the universe, then you need to be watching and receptive. Waiting rooms have both time and thoughts you wouldn't have self selected if you had all your favorite masturbations*. The radio in the car works similarly. All the stuff I don't like is the price for people showing me new things that I do.

There's probably a deeper wisdom there, but loss overwhelming can obscure it. So I get distracted in these threads by thoughts that come for no other purpose than to defecate on others' resonance.

*back to the point of what's displaced the church time. I'm really guessing a lot of it is actually just jacking off on the phone. Different ideologies have different endgoals, and maximum masturbation is pretty clearly the goal of many of them. They'll be hostile to competing calls.

The thing is, everyone loves to blame smartphones and our age of distraction but if society were so great why would anyone want to disassociate from it?

Turns out maybe mass social distractions like religion can't compete with individualized self-selected distraction. There's no point getting bitter about it.

To stick with your crude analogy if you'd rather have a wank than intercourse with god perhaps god (or at least the God that is presented at church) isn't actually that good in bed (doesn't speak to the hearts of men).

In my personal life I notice when I try to goto war w my vices I lose. The reason we cling to things that are unhealthy is that our day to day lives aren't' working.

 

[Josu]

I can't imagine why anyone would goto church if not forced to.

The organ music can be pretty to listen to.

And I suppose people like the socializing afterwards but being around a bunch of people with shared delusions in a world in desperate need to clear headed action/solutions isn't pushing people's buttons anymore. Kind of like people are going to bars/drinking less, seeking comfort in hazy ignorance is really no comfort at all.

Some people find comfort and peace of mind in praying to a higher entity with the promise of life after death. Not judging if this entity, this promise or this life after death are truth, just pointing why some people goes to church.

Going to the main subjetct, I am not a beliver, so I don't care too much if they grow or not, but if Christedom wants to endure, should look back and analize why they are loosing "customers" while other religions are gaining them.

 

[Gori the Grey]

A Parable for Our Times

Why do you always bury yourself in that cell-phone?
Well, to be honest, I'm escaping this sucky world.
What sucks about the world?
Frankly, my biggest dissatisfaction* is a lack of community, how difficult it is to form meaningful social connections.

*as per other threads on this forum

 

[Voidwalkin]

A Parable for Our Times

Why do you always bury yourself in that cell-phone?
Well, to be honest, I'm escaping this sucky world.
What sucks about the world?
Frankly, my biggest dissatisfaction* is a lack of community, how difficult it is to form meaningful social connections.

*as per other threads on this forum

If you're standing in an infantry line, with the cavalry bearing down on you, and everybody else starts running, you'd better run too.