Could ireland be added to the game

[bestbrian]

not that i remember but the only cannibals i remember were in the pacific islands and they ate captain cook.

With Fava Beans and a nice Chianti.

Actually, he had a pretty unfortunate name to end being eaten by cannibals.

 

[budweiser]

Ireland is the Celts running a 1CC from a galley/settler after they got owned on the mainland. They are already included.

 

[MonRiverMonarch]

With Fava Beans and a nice Chianti.

Actually, he had a pretty unfortunate name to end being eaten by cannibals.

Good one!

 

[irish-dojo]

Sorry i dont want to seem bashful but some of you said ireland hasnt had a big infulence on the world ok heres some points

1) One of the only countries that didnt completly fall under english control when attacked
2) Irish monks speard Christanity to most Europian countries ( Without Christanity spain , france , england and other countries would not have been in as much wars and spain and france would not have grown )
3) Ireland made most countries stronger , we gave them help in time of need we helped in world war 1 and 2 and were given no credit
4) We are one of the only countries with such a strong celtic culture and still speak there lanaguge and play there sports
5) Bill clinton , Jfk and obama all have irish roots without them think about what america would be now
6) Irish monks thought many people to write and kept ancient pottery , writting , skulls and litrature
7) Ireland is one of the richest countries in the world even tough it has a population of 6mil
8) During the famine thousends of irish went to america and started the american dream and made america what it is today
9) St.Patricks day
10) Without the irish monks being attacked by the vikings they wound not have become strong and scandinavia would have never grown as big
11) Irish missionaries helped africa threw so much of it's troubles without them africa would be so much worse

the is many more but i am no expert in irish history

 

[The_Big_Con]

Irish-dojo, you have a very inflated view of Ireland's significance in world events.

Not only did Ireland fall 'completely under British control' for CENTURIES, but in fact, Ireland has been Britain's longest-held subject state. By which I mean, England controlled Ireland LONGER than they controlled America or Canada or India.

Irish immigrants flooded America's ports and they "made America what it is today" -- along with Germans, Poles, Italians, Greeks, and now Mexicans. The Irish were ONE of the many waves of immigration the US has seen. Obama, Clinton, and JFK had Irish ancestry, true, but are you really going to count this as an accomplishment of the Irish culture? What these men have done, good or bad, they did as Americans. Would you count the election of all of America's Anglo presidents (Jefferson, Madison, Truman, Reagan) as accomplishments for England?

And who told you Ireland is one of the richest countries in the world? I guess it's rich if you compare it with most African states, but it's the poorest country in Western Europe. Maybe you mean they're rich in spirit.

 

[Willem]

1) One of the only countries that didnt completly fall under english control when attacked

Huh? The Irish were ruled by the English from the 1600s until the south gained independance in 1922. At which point did they not fall under complete English control?

2) Irish monks speard Christanity to most Europian countries ( Without Christanity spain , france , england and other countries would not have been in as much wars and spain and france would not have grown )

The Irish did not spread Christianity, it was already in place throughout most of Europe. In fact Ireland was one of the last areas to become Christian. What they did was help keep alive some of the knowledge that was lost when Rome fell and keep the church alive in those areas where many people were still pagan.

3) Ireland made most countries stronger , we gave them help in time of need we helped in world war 1 and 2 and were given no credit

Ireland did nothing during WW2, it maintained a policy of neutrality. Many Irish were in fact Nazi sympathizers since they had no great love for England. And England trying to impose conscription on them in WW1 caused rebellions and sowed the seeds for their war of independence.

4) We are one of the only countries with such a strong celtic culture and still speak there lanaguge and play there sports

Which is why they can already be represented by the Celtic civ.

5) Bill clinton , Jfk and obama all have irish roots without them think about what america would be now

This one is really silly. Go back far enough and everyone in the world will probably have Egyptian or at least Ethiopian roots, since we originally came from Africa. It means absolutely nothing in terms of world influence.

6) Irish monks thought many people to write and kept ancient pottery , writting , skulls and litrature

Through a sheer stroke of fortune mainly. Being isolated, and never having been conquered by the Romans, they weren't subjected to the social upheavals the rest of the continent went through when Rome fell.

7) Ireland is one of the richest countries in the world even tough it has a population of 6mil

It's doing alright now but for many, many years it was dirt poor. Millions had to leave for the New World since they weren't even able to feed themselves. Even today, it's only ranked 31 in terms of GDP, which certainly doesn't qualify it as one of the richest. Not even close. Mexico is richer than Ireland, even though many people there live in poverty.

8) During the famine thousends of irish went to america and started the american dream and made america what it is today

The American dream started with the very first English colony and fully came about with the revolution. And it included people from all over the world, not just Ireland. Even today, people with Irish background only make up about 12% of the population. That's a pretty small portion overall.

9) St.Patricks day

Yeah right, a day when people just go out and get stinking drunk. Some contribution.

10) Without the irish monks being attacked by the vikings they wound not have become strong and scandinavia would have never grown as big

They just would have gone somewhere else. There were lots of targets for them to choose from. The Vikings made their way all over Europe, even to Russia. Ireland didn't have an exclusive.

11) Irish missionaries helped africa threw so much of it's troubles without them africa would be so much worse

Since when? The Irish played no more of a role in Africa than any other Christian nation. It can easily be argued that the Africans would have been much better off if the Europeans would have just left them alone. They were hugely responsible for most of the problems that continent has faced since the colonial era. The Rwanda massacre that happened a few years back was the direct result of English colonial policies.

the is many more but i am no expert in irish history

Obviously.

BTW, it took me about 10-15 minutes looking up information on the Wikipedia to come with some of the facts I used to refute your points. You might want to do the same before you post such blantantly inaccurate statements.

 

[Ajidica]

I agree, although Ireland had relativly little world importance, they did have relativly high regional importance.
>They did help (not solely responsible) reintroduce Christianity to the Angles and Jutes and Saxons, it would have taken alot longer if it had to come through France.
>IIRC, the Scots are actualy Irish (Dal Riata I believe) that migrated over, throwing out the Picts and forming Scotland, which was a relativly cohesive kingdom (for the time, compared to the Anglo-Saxons)
>After Harold Godwinson lost at Hastings, his brothers fled to Ireland (they were half-dane I believe) and worked with the Hibirno-Norse to raid the Normans. (the Hibirno-Norse didn't like the Normans much)
Beyind that, I don't remember much becasue my knowledge of Northern Europe trails off after the Dark Ages.

NOTE: I am not saying Ireland had world importance, but did have relativly high regional importance relative to their size.

 

[Willem]

>IIRC, the Scots are actualy Irish (Dal Riata I believe) that migrated over, throwing out the Picts and forming Scotland, which was a relativly cohesive kingdom (for the time, compared to the Anglo-Saxons)

I just looked it up:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dál_Riata

The Dal Riata kingdom didn't even come close to throwing out the Picts and were eventually absorbed by them. They pretty much ceased being a political force by the time of the Vikings. There's also some disagreement as to whether they were even Irish.

>After Harold Godwinson lost at Hastings, his brothers fled to Ireland (they were half-dane I believe) and worked with the Hibirno-Norse to raid the Normans. (the Hibirno-Norse didn't like the Normans much)

Which accomplished nothing since the Normans still overran the British Isles. And according to the Wikipedia entry, his brothers were also killed at Hastings.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

The easiest way is to just use the brennus LH, but swap out his name and the celtic civ data so that it's specific to ireland. IMO not worthy of main-game inclusion, but doable and reasonable in a mod/XML tweak.

 

[Ajidica]

@Willem:
For the Dal Riata thing, I couldn't remeber if they ever actualy kicked the Picts out, the cultures were relatvily fractured at the time so there was alot of cultural diffuision.
As to Harolds brothers: I could have sworn a couple survived (or maybe it was some high ranking nobles). Whether they were succesful or not is sort of irrelevant, as very few kingdoms were successful against the Normans at the time.

 

[Willem]

The easiest way is to just use the brennus LH, but swap out his name and the celtic civ data so that it's specific to ireland. IMO not worthy of main-game inclusion, but doable and reasonable in a mod/XML tweak.

Or add a third Celtic leader who did come from Ireland.

@Willem:
Whether they were succesful or not is sort of irrelevant, as very few kingdoms were successful against the Normans at the time.

Well it is relevant as those skirmishes had absolutely no effect on the course of history. Had they prevented the Normans from actually conquering England then they would have been influential. As it stands they're just another footnote in the history books.

As for the brothers, I'm only relating what I read in the Wikipedia entry for Harold Godwinson.

And who told you Ireland is one of the richest countries in the world? I guess it's rich if you compare it with most African states, but it's the poorest country in Western Europe. Maybe you mean they're rich in spirit.

I had a look at the lists for per capita GDP adjusted for cost of living and Ireland is indeed doing very well. Depending on which figures you go by, they're either in 5th or 9th place in the world right now. So they're certainly not the poorest in Western Europe. Though they were not too long ago.

 

[Molybdeus]

There is no such thing as "the American accent". Yes, it is true that we do have one local accent that is thought to be very close to the most common accent from 1600s England. IIRC it is the 'Boston' accent, though my memory on that could be faulty and my old linguistics books are buried in a box somewhere.

"Standard American" is a rhotic accent, while "Standard English" (IE most London accents) isn't. There are of course many accents in both countries, but in general American accents (especially American southern accents) are closer to the accents of England in the 1600's.

Ireland is a beautiful and good country, but it has never been an empire like Poland, Austria, Sweden and even Lithuania were. It's hard to justify adding Ireland and leaving those others out. But if you really want to play as Ireland you can play a mod.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Or add a third Celtic leader who did come from Ireland.

It's a bit harder but any basic mod guy could do that too, yes.

 

[Lemon Merchant]

The closest American accent to colonial England is American Southern, actually. We still say reckon, yonder, and britches (breeches), just like Shakespeare did! Yet somehow people think of our accent as being one of the least intelligent in the US.

I'm 100% against Ireland as a Civ. Ireland never had an empire ... has that whole little island ever even been united under one ruler? I mean, besides being part of the British empire? The Irish never built anything that could be considered a Wonder of the World. I'm having a hard time thinking of what Civ calls Great People from Ireland -- keeping in mind that St. Patrick was British. I'll give them a Great Artist or two: Joyce and Yeats. Other than that, I can't imagine why anyone would consider Ireland one of history's great civilizations, unless he's an ethnocentric Irishman.

AFTER they add Poland, Italy, Maori, Denmark, Polynesian, Magyar, the Iroquois, the Sioux, the Carib, Mexico, Australia, Afghanistan, and Brazil, THEN maybe it would be appropriate to stick Ireland in.

One of the hardest parts about being Irish is that we tend to frequently forget that the world revolves around America, and on behalf of my countrymen, I apologize.

As for people thinking that the southern accent is the least intelligent in the US, well, you sort of proved their point there, didn't you now?

And as for great civilizations, I can't imagine why anyone would think that America is one. Unless he's an ego-centric American.

Slag my country, I slag you. Have a nice day.

 

[The_Big_Con]

Great slag, sweets. No substance, but cute use of my words.

I'm not a jingoist, but I think that people who aren't ethnocentric Americans (the word is ethnocentric, sugar. Egocentric would be saying that I, The Big Con, am one of history's great civilizations) would still have to acknowledge that America's a pretty impressive civilization. The Manhattan Project, the Apollo Program, Mount Rushmore, Broadway, the Pentagon, Hollywood, Rock and Roll... Civilization is talking about us.

Perhaps this is Sid's American bias. I wonder, then, if Sid had been an Irishman, what he could have possibly stretched his imagination to call an Irish wonder of the world. Guiness, I suppose.

You have an American cartoon as your icon. I, by contrast, have never heard of an Irish cartoon. That's culture. I presume you wouldn't want to compare Ireland's progress towards a Space Race or Domination victory with America's. Credit where it is due, Ireland may have a better chance at a Diplomatic victory, but that's only because many, possibly most nations of the world, hate America and don't care about Ireland. And why should they? If Ireland's financial sector collapsed, Europe would carry it like a donkey carries a tick. If Ireland invaded two soverign nations without UN approval, it ... it's just so farfetched to me. What nation couldn't repel the Irish army? Monaco, perhaps? If Ireland sank into the Irish Sea, would it have any effect on geopolitics at all?

Yeah, America has some weirdness as a Civilization in the game. I don't really play as America because it's so hard to fathom an American Trireme or Horse Archer.

Maybe that's the real question: What's more worthy of being a Civilization: a nation that was nonexistent in the year 500 AD, insignificant in the year 1800, and dominant in the year 2009 OR a nation that was insignificant in the year 500, insignificant in the year 1800, and insignificant in the year 2009?

Moderator Action: Trolling - warned
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[theskibum]

Irish monks in the fifth century preserved most of Western classical poetry, history, oratory, philosophy and commentary through the chaos that followed the fall of the Roman Empire. As stability returned to the continent they were instrumental in reacquainting Europe with this literature. The Irish played a crucial role in what we think of as Western culture.
The book How the Irish Saved Civilization: The Untold Story of Ireland's Heroic Role from the Fall of Rome to the Rise of Medieval Europe, by Thomas Cahill, recounts this hinge of history as well as providing background on the origins of Ireland.
That Ireland was never a big player on the world stage is true. That they were hugely influential is a matter of history. Does Ireland belong in CivIV? It does if you want it to.

Excellent book by the way. I am not certain of its accuracy because I have never taken the time to research it, but it is a very interesting read.

 

[brianshapiro]

2) Irish monks speard Christanity to most Europian countries ( Without Christanity spain , france , england and other countries would not have been in as much wars and spain and france would not have grown )
5) Bill clinton , Jfk and obama all have irish roots without them think about what america would be now
6) Irish monks thought many people to write and kept ancient pottery , writting , skulls and litrature
8) During the famine thousends of irish went to america and started the american dream and made america what it is today
9) St.Patricks day

Here you're talking about Irish culture being a participant in other, more dominant, cultures. Swiss culture was also an important participant in the cultures of Europe over the last few centuries, a lot of art and craft comes from Switzerland, or as it was called in Latin, Helvetia. There's still no Helvetic civilization in the game. And there's no urgent need for one.

And while we're on the subject, just as we can divide Celtic culture and have the Irish Celts... we can divide German culture and have Prussians, Bohemians, Bavarians, Austrians. We can divide Eastern european states from Russian culture and have Ukraines, Latvians, etc. And where are the Yugoslavs represented? No Serbs or Bosnians. Or what about other Slavic cultures like the Poles. Or what about the Moldavians? Hungarians (Magyars)? Romanians?

What about the Finns?

Give me a reason why the Irish are more important than these?

Then you can argue that there should be a Breton civilization and a Basque civilization.

6) Irish monks thought many people to write and kept ancient pottery , writting , skulls and litrature

Monks across Europe were scholastics and kept ancient writings, just more were preserved in Ireland than other places.

 

[Xellos-_^]

One of the hardest parts about being Irish is that we tend to frequently forget that the world revolves around America, and on behalf of my countrymen, I apologize.

As for people thinking that the southern accent is the least intelligent in the US, well, you sort of proved their point there, didn't you now?

And as for great civilizations, I can't imagine why anyone would think that America is one. Unless he's an ego-centric American.

Slag my country, I slag you. Have a nice day.

no one is looking down on the Irish people but facts are facts. Over the last 2 thousand years Ireland has never achieve anything worth talking about. If real life civilization get points base on their achievements, Ireland would rank near the bottom.

 

[Zack]

One of the hardest parts about being Irish is that we tend to frequently forget that the world revolves around America, and on behalf of my countrymen, I apologize.

As for people thinking that the southern accent is the least intelligent in the US, well, you sort of proved their point there, didn't you now?

And as for great civilizations, I can't imagine why anyone would think that America is one. Unless he's an ego-centric American.

Slag my country, I slag you. Have a nice day.

Wow, I don't even know what to say about this^^^.

no one is looking down on the Irish people but facts are facts. Over the last 2 thousand years Ireland has never achieve anything worth talking about. If real life civilization get points base on their achievements, Ireland would rank near the bottom.

Yeah, I mean America has achieved much more in 200 years than Ireland has in 2,000 years.

 

[Xellos-_^]

Yeah, I mean America has achieved much more in 200 years than Ireland has in 2,000 years.

forget the US, there are many countries younger then Ireland who have achieve more in a shorter span of time.