Could some Emperor players play out this start?

Grogs · Dec 30, 2005

Alexti2: That's a pretty awesome start. I do believe we took *exactly* opposite starts. Mine was pretty much geared to military and yours to everything else. I guess maybe I've been sneak attacked by Alexander a few too many times to try that peaceful of a start. The difference is telling. While my economy is falling apart, even with a gold mine being worked, yours is booming.

I have to agree with ch that your fishing->sailing->Great Lighthouse is really powerful. Did you manage to get all the 1st & 2nd teir techs through trade or were you able to research most of them on your own. I don't think I've ever come as close to tech parity with the AI's as you have that early in an Emperor game.

cleverhandle · Dec 30, 2005

I'm dropping the spoiler boxes at this point - I doubt anyone not playing the game will read this far into the thread.

@colony: Yeah, Guangzhou misses the rice and a hill or two. alexti2 had the right idea going for production there. But not a huge deal. It still looks like a pretty solid start to me, better than mine in cities, though your economy is starting to tank just like mine did. (Later...) Just saw your 100-turn save - good work on the Chariot offensive. Nice, focused military strategy - you got yourself some Ivory, but you've still got your cities and cottages developing back at home. Looks promising - good balance between cottage builder and desperate warmonger.

@Grogs: Impressive. There's no way I would have had the guts to go for a chariot rush with only two cities behind it. Given how far you managed to push it, you must be a strong tactician. Your economy is looking pretty grim, though. Go, go, Pots!

@alexti2: It's usually more barbs that I'm concerned about rather than AI attacks, unless I'm next to Montezuma or some other nutjob. But I can see how this map in particular gives you lots of great defensive posts and that the ever-expanding AI will quickly deprive barbs of land. Like I said, I think I'm starting to really use scouting to my advantage now. I'm just not sure how far I can go without Archery. Looks like the answer is pretty far, at least in certain circumstances. I'm surprised you went for the Pyramids after the Lighthouse, but that explains how you got all that money (I was kind of wondering about that...).

Of the attempts so far, I definitely think alexti2's start is the strongest. I could say that just by comparing 100-turn saves, but what I think is more important is that his strategy plays right into Qin's strengths - the city plan, tech path, Industrious bonus to the Great Lighthouse, and Financial bonus all fit together like clockwork. Very elegant. And harbors are just going to keep the ball rolling. Grogs' start, even if the conquest yields good dividends later on, is making Qin into a warmonger he's not. colony's is solid, though still quite a bit behind alexti2's tech-wise in addition to having an enemy for a neighbor. As for me, I was just dorking around without a plan, as usual. And that got me nothing, as usual.

I learned a huge amount comparing these games - thank you Grogs, alexti2, and colony. Hopefully, some more players will give the start a try.

colony · Dec 30, 2005

Wow, after looking at Alexti2's game the difference in the starting approach really does show :blush:

. I suppose I still haven't managed to get out of my Civ3 approach to the early game yet (running out of room? go and start a war :rolleyes:

), and I think that might be part of my problem in adjusting to Civ4.

cleverhandle · Dec 30, 2005

Grogs said:
I guess maybe I've been sneak attacked by Alexander a few too many times to try that peaceful of a start.

Cyrus is a pretty peaceful guy, unless maybe you've got a religious conflict going. I really wasn't too worried about him. But that's why I was asking before about how/if alexti2's start would differ depending on neighbors. Tricky business, there...

I have to agree with ch that your fishing->sailing->Great Lighthouse is really powerful.

What's really cool is how it spins out into early builds and research. It's all about the trade routes - no need for roads = no Wheel = less workers = more settlers = more commerce. Beautiful.

alexti2 · Dec 31, 2005

Grogs said:
Alexti2: That's a pretty awesome start. I do believe we took *exactly* opposite starts. Mine was pretty much geared to military and yours to everything else. I guess maybe I've been sneak attacked by Alexander a few too many times to try that peaceful of a start. The difference is telling. While my economy is falling apart, even with a gold mine being worked, yours is booming.

I think I have got a feeling on how much units you need to discourage your aggressive/peaceful neighbours from attacking you. With aggressive neighbour I'd build few more warriors. Probably 3 more. At this stage I don't want to get many inland cities from AI (they're still to small and it would ruin my econom), so even if I had military capability I wouldn't go for conquest (and because of that I haven't tried to build offensive force). I find it more profitable to wait a bit and let AI develop his cities (with his bonuses it will do it faster than I can) and when I will take them they will start to pay for themselves right away.

Grogs said:
I have to agree with ch that your fishing->sailing->Great Lighthouse is really powerful. Did you manage to get all the 1st & 2nd teir techs through trade or were you able to research most of them on your own. I don't think I've ever come as close to tech parity with the AI's as you have that early in an Emperor game.

I think I've bought Iron Working, Pottery, Polytheism and Meditation and researched the rest myself.

alexti2 · Dec 31, 2005

cleverhandle said:
@alexti2: I'm surprised you went for the Pyramids after the Lighthouse, but that explains how you got all that money (I was kind of wondering about that...).

Of the attempts so far, I definitely think alexti2's start is the strongest. I could say that just by comparing 100-turn saves, but what I think is more important is that his strategy plays right into Qin's strengths - the city plan, tech path, Industrious bonus to the Great Lighthouse, and Financial bonus all fit together like clockwork. Very elegant. And harbors are just going to keep the ball rolling.

When I went for Pyramids I was realizing that my chances to get them without stone wasn't very high, but losing wonder race is also sort of using industrious traits, because you're getting double money for the base production spent. I got a bit over 400 gold, that's roughly free Metal Casting - so I've sort of spent about 20 turns of production of my capital ot research Metal Casting. What other choice I had? To build warriors (which I didn't really need), or workers or settelrs (I needed neither at the moment), but they could have been held for the future. A bit later I would be able to build library. I think that 400 gold is a reasonable outcome when compared to these option, and if I actually got Pyramids, that would pretty much mean that the game was as good as won.

Not sure if you've noticed, that my plan also allows me to found (or conquer) any coastal cities in a decent spots without fear to bring my economy to the halt. With all those trade routes, such city can pay for itself. Another option (and considering Emperor level and industrious civ, very realistic one) to get Colossus for even better coast tiles.

{shameless plug}I have also put few ideas in that thread:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=148242{/shameless plug}

Tauro · Dec 31, 2005

It's a fantastic challenge, there a pitty to start it only today...
I'll post tomorrow my 150 turn, it's a great chance to learn a lot from you, looks like a skilled GOTM

snizzake · Dec 31, 2005

wow I really ate over-expansion here, the thinking behind it was to get city sites I really wanted based on the coast to maximize the Great Lighthouse. It's going to hurt for a little while but I'm hoping to wage a pillage war vs Cyrus to buy myself enough time to research HBR and then sue for peace to bring in the cavalry to take a few cities. I'm hoping I can turn it around but I might have expanded too quickly and suffered on early techs to recover.

obsolete · Dec 31, 2005

If only I had my civ IV cd here I'd show you how it's done

cleverhandle · Dec 31, 2005

alexti2 said:
I think I have got a feeling on how much units you need to discourage your aggressive/peaceful neighbours from attacking you. With aggressive neighbour I'd build few more warriors. Probably 3 more.

On that note...

I started another Qin game last night to see if I could apply some of the ideas from this thread. It was a different game in a lot of ways - I didn't have a coastal capital, so I couldn't take advantage of Sailing and the Great Lighthouse in the same way. But I tried to focus on commerce and trade, as well as make moves that played into my traits. I did have Marble, so I took relatively early Pots (prereq to Metal Casting), went Oracle->Metal Casting, had some cheap Forges up quickly, started on Colossus, discovered Alphabet before any of my four contacts, and had tech parity by 400 BC. Unfortunately, I also had Napoleon for a neighbor - he invaded me and kicked my butt in 375 BC just as I was hooking up iron and starting on a real military. :mad:

I didn't even have Archers, as I was banking on Alpha to fill in my old techs. I'm wondering whether I just needed more warriors or whether taking Archery just before Alpha would have been a better plan. As it was, it seems that I had at least 5 turns on Alpha before the AI's.

Argh... back to the drawing board. I think it was a solid start - took good advantage of my traits and had a nice synergy between techs and wonders and economy. Just needs some tweaking to find that military balance you're talking about.

colony · Dec 31, 2005

Hmm, if you're still interested in the other game I carried on for a bit, to see if I could get my empire into some sort of reasonable shape, and it's getting there, but all those chariots have really hurt my economy, and so is Organised Religion, but I'm slowly getting back to tech parity, although Caeser does have Feudalism (well a message came up saying he'd switched to Vassalage came up so I assume he has).

After I finished researching IW I started Alphabet, and immediately traded it to Caeser for Sailing, Hunting and Polytheism. After leaving Cyrus crippled with only a couple of cities left I got Archery, Meditation, Preisthood and Masonry for peace in 100AD. After alphabet I researched Maths, and then Calendar, getting Compass from the great scientist I got. I traded Compass for Construction, and extorted Monotheism off Cyrus. Since then I've just been building up some infrastructure, and waiting for Metal Casting and Currency to finish so I can get back to making money.

Edit: A couple of archers probably would've deterred Napoleon, and could have made the difference. Of course 5 more warriors could have done too, but it'd probably depend on whether he had axemen or not. I have definately learnt a lot from this game though, not only about early commerce, but also about chariots (never had a reason to use them before really)

mutax: I'll have a go at that game in a bit and see what happens. An isolated start on Monarch isn't exactly easy either though, especially with a non-financial civ.

mutax2003 · Dec 31, 2005

I am impressed with what you guys can do on the emperor game starting on a cramped map. Just wondering if you can give a try to this lowly monarch game, it is Egypt starting on a remote island, with no possibility of early tech trading, you can post your save at 100 or 200 turn marks, and explain what strategy you would use to stay ahead or on-par with AI until optics.

JerichoHill · Dec 31, 2005

Tell you what, I should have time on Monday to do this:

cleverhandle · Dec 31, 2005

mutax2003 said:
I am impressed with what you guys can do on the emperor game starting on a cramped map.

The game is coded to give you worse starts as the difficulty increases. That wasn't really noticeable to me until Emperor - I've just been playing 100-turn Emperor starts lately, and in 6 starts I never had copper. In only 2 did I have a pre-Calendar luxury. In 2 I had horses. In most of them I was jammed in a corner of the continent. The Qin game where Napoleon ate me was clearly the strongest start of all of them resource-wise, which is probably why I was doing so well (for a while). Lesson being that if you want to move up levels, don't get hung up about "good" starts, because they're few and far between later on. Just play what you've got.

Just wondering if you can give a try to this lowly monarch game...

Yay, Monarch! I can play that! But would you mind making a separate thread for it? I'd like to keep this one focused on Emperor.

...it is Egypt starting on a remote island, with no possibility of early tech trading...

For a fair look at strategy, you don't want to tell people that - it makes a big difference in early builds and tech (especially religion). If you do a good job scouting, you should find this out early enough to adjust - but leave that up to the players' ability to scout rather than telling them about it. I'll try to play the beginning as if I didn't know...

...and explain what strategy you would use to stay ahead or on-par with AI until optics.

Without being financial it's probably impossible to be ahead. In my experience, island starts are all about keeping a decent economy up, and that requires you to put some time in at the top of the tech tree rather than beeline to Optics. We'll see...

Islandia · Dec 31, 2005

Not sure if it is too late to jump in on this but this is my turn 100 (can only get in a few turns at a time while entertaining the family). How do you get a nice turn log like that anyway? I have to just go by memory to tell you major events

Islandia · Dec 31, 2005

Spoiler :

cleverhandle · Dec 31, 2005

@snizzake: Wow, impressive expansion! You got yourself four cities in 50 turns, though your economy is clearly feeling the hurt. And 3 golds! And copper! Those bottom two cities are a real dilemma, though. Guangzhou (south near the gold and copper) gets you two very useful resources, but has practically no food. So you can't actually work the gold tiles to get that huge economic boost, even after Civil Service. Shifting it a little east would get you the cow, but that kind of screws up other things. Tough calls all around. I don't think I'd go for HBR and pillaging, though - at this point you have four solid cities and good resources, but you're also strung out all along the coast. Basically, your whole empire is going to be the frontline, and I don't think you can match the AI's production to deal with that yet. Also, I just really don't get the value of horse archers - they seem inadequate for taking culturally mature cities, and are totally countered by Spears, which everyone else probably has already. But I'm also a sucker for waiting until Catapults, which is probably too wimpy a play in a lot of circumstances.

@Islandia: It's never too late! And that looks to be a pretty good position at 375BC. Too bad the Persians nabbed The Great Lighthouse. Your start looks a lot like alexti2's, though a bit less tilted towards coastal trade - you have more workers and a much better road network. I think you'll be great tech-wise after Alphabet comes in. (Later...) Damn! I didn't see the Pyramids until I read your log. That's a huge boost. Get that whole Pyramids->Engineer->Great Library->National Epic snowball rolling. Very strong. Oh, as for the turnlogs I do it the hard way - switch out to Notepad at the end of each turn and write everything down. Very time-consuming, and it makes for dull reading I'm afraid. But when I was skimming the Civ4 SG's, I saw a bunch of turnlogs with identical, very pretty formats - it looks like maybe there's some kind of utility out there to process the game logs and turn them into a nice, human-readable form.

edit: Poked around a bit and found the utility - an auto-logger written by eotinb. Very neat. The thread is here.

@colony: At the moment, I'm fascinated by starts - going over starts in this way was what got me comfortable on Emperor in Civ3. But I'm cool if people want to keep playing out the game and compare notes.

mutax2003 · Dec 31, 2005

I got your point, now my scenario is on a seperate thread.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=151165

alexti2 · Dec 31, 2005

cleverhandle said:
On that note...

I started another Qin game last night to see if I could apply some of the ideas from this thread. It was a different game in a lot of ways - I didn't have a coastal capital, so I couldn't take advantage of Sailing and the Great Lighthouse in the same way. But I tried to focus on commerce and trade, as well as make moves that played into my traits. I did have Marble, so I took relatively early Pots (prereq to Metal Casting), went Oracle->Metal Casting, had some cheap Forges up quickly, started on Colossus, discovered Alphabet before any of my four contacts, and had tech parity by 400 BC.

Unfortunately, I also had Napoleon for a neighbor - he invaded me and kicked my butt in 375 BC just as I was hooking up iron and starting on a real military. I didn't even have Archers, as I was banking on Alpha to fill in my old techs. I'm wondering whether I just needed more warriors or whether taking Archery just before Alpha would have been a better plan. As it was, it seems that I had at least 5 turns on Alpha before the AI's.

Argh... back to the drawing board. I think it was a solid start - took good advantage of my traits and had a nice synergy between techs and wonders and economy. Just needs some tweaking to find that military balance you're talking about.

I think that was pretty good start, except you've neglected military a bit. I can't really comment on whether you got lucky or not here, because I mostly play on deity and there your approach is not particularly reliable (even with Marble, you also need Masonry, and AI beats you to Oracle more often than not). But on Emperor AI develops much slower, so your plan may work reliably. In fact, I don't how to beat deity AI reliably if you get inland start. From the coast some variation of archipelago strategy works, but not from the inland. I think, Islandia's strategy may be something to stick with if you start inland, it may also work on harder levels, though it's unclear how to keep the economy running when you start to get more cities (unless you're organized). Maybe by going for whoever constructed the Great Lighthouse first?

alexti2 · Dec 31, 2005

cleverhandle said:
@Islandia: It's never too late! And that looks to be a pretty good position at 375BC. Too bad the Persians nabbed The Great Lighthouse. Your start looks a lot like alexti2's, though a bit less tilted towards coastal trade - you have more workers and a much better road network. I think you'll be great tech-wise after Alphabet comes in. (Later...) Damn! I didn't see the Pyramids until I read your log. That's a huge boost. Get that whole Pyramids->Engineer->Great Library->National Epic snowball rolling.

Islandia's plan has totally different underlying concept. Pyramids give representation, which means he can grow several large cities. This works particularly well with Bismark, because of expansive trait. Those city will form the core of the empire, and will be financing new cities until they grow to a reasonable size.

My plan centers on making any new coastal city profitable outright (and getting stronger earlier). Of course, those plan are not exclusive, you can get both concepts working. In fact both of us tried to get the second one done (and both failed

).

Could some Emperor players play out this start?

King

King

Slow Typer

King

Prince

Prince

Warlord

Chieftain

Deity

King

Slow Typer

Rider of China, 4-3-3

Bedrock of Knowledge

King

King

King

King

Rider of China, 4-3-3

Prince

Prince

Similar threads