Could this be added to AND?

[xcrissxcrossx]

This isn't really a full on idea, but It would be nice for some of your opinions. I am interested in Ancient history, and something that I really don't like about Civ 4 is that, if you play on Marathon and send a unit due east or due west, you can just keep going and going and discover every civilization way before the AD even comes.

When I read about ancient history, it is obvious that people weren't really aware of all other countries, even on the same continent, until around the medieval age. I was reading about Alexander the Great, and his Goal was to conquer everything to the east of Greece to India, because the Greeks believed that India was the farthest land to the east.

I'm not sure how it could be implemented, but I think units should somehow be restricted from leaving so many spaces from their own borders, possibly until certain techs are researched. It would be WAY more important on larger maps.

Does anyone else have any better ideas or comments?


Edit: I was thinking about this more, and I think I have a good solution. I may even try to make this Modmod if I can figure out how.

I'm thinking, After you are out of a city's limit for X turns, you start losing health slowly, from lack of supplies. If you enter your own city's borders, or an allied city's borders, this effect will stop, from getting new supplies. This COULD stack with my above idea, where you lose health quicker if you are farther from your borders, but I'm leaning towards just this.

There could even be a promotion, like a survivorman promotion, that allows you to last longer without supplies.

 

[soup567]

Yeah I think this would be a great idea. It's much more realistic. But there is one problem. if civ a can only go so far, civ b might be at edge of where civ a can go. To meet the rest of the civs beyond civ's b's border civ a could just trade contacts. If that can be tweaked it could work.

 

[Afforess]

If you guys are having this problem, I suspect you are playing on too low a difficulty level. I rarely can get the AI to maintain open borders agreements for any length of time, and am often confined to seeing only my immediate surroundings for hundreds of years. In history, it never was that people couldn't go far (see: Marco Polo), it was that it was dangerous to do so.

 

[xcrissxcrossx]

I'm thinking maybe, until you get certain techs, if you go beyond a certain distance from your cities, you will lose health per turn. First slowly, then it gets faster as you travel farther.

Actually, check out my OP for my new idea. Wouldn't I need something added to the SDK to track how long you have been out of the city's borders? I don't even know if this is possible.

 

[Afforess]

I'm thinking maybe, until you get certain techs, if you go beyond a certain distance from your cities, you will lose health per turn. First slowly, then it gets faster as you travel farther.

Actually, check out my OP for my new idea.

Oh god, not the supply mod. Not the supply mod...

Let me stop you right here, before this gets any bigger. Supply mods have been attempted before, but the AI ultimately can't understand them, and I lack the talent and time to make it possible.

 

[xcrissxcrossx]

Oh god, not the supply mod. Not the supply mod...

Let me stop you right here, before this gets any bigger. Supply mods have been attempted before, but the AI ultimately can't understand them, and I lack the talent and time to make it possible.

Okay. I can stick with my original idea then.

 

[NBAfan]

Oh god, not the supply mod. Not the supply mod...

Let me stop you right here, before this gets any bigger. Supply mods have been attempted before, but the AI ultimately can't understand them, and I lack the talent and time to make it possible.

Afforess actually lacks talent to do something with SDK!
And we thought he was a wizard.

 

[xcrissxcrossx]

Afforess actually lacks talent to do something with SDK!
And we thought he was a wizard.

I never actually considered the AI part.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Afforess actually lacks talent to do something with SDK!
And we thought he was a wizard.

He said talent and time. I suspect the latter myself

 

[Killtech]

finally someone else who has a problem with this early on whole world discovery!

@Afforess: nope it's not the difficulty setting that is the problem here. in my games i play usually something between emperor and deity difficulty and it's the same here. the open borders agreements don't always decide how much of the world you can discover early on - it's very dependent on the map you're playing. however if you play with minor civ start, which i do, you are free to discover just too much. so when map trading is unlocked i see the whole world shortly afterwards... no need for satellites.

however the scouting itself isn't the core of the problem thus the supply mod won't be a satisfying solution. the problem is that you'll have contact to most of the civs in the world in the classic age - especially because you can trade with contacts - which i find quite absurd btw 'cause i can't imagine how that should work in reality. furthermore this possibility to have contact to everyone makes it very easy for a player to acquire any newly discovered techs form all over the world. but i admit that i didn't played the newest AND mod so far thus i don't know if that has changed.

i suggest to make an add-on to realistic diplomacy mod: until the development of the radio you can only contact civs that are in your visual range or have a road connection to your empire. so if a civ moves all its units out of your visible domain you just lose the contact! this include the removal form the score board. however all peace agreements and open borders agreements will still be remembered. and if you wish to speak to that civ you'll be forced to send out an envoy to their lands.

 

[vamperium]

I wonder if galciv 2's model could be implemented in civ for this; give all units a distance range from your civilizations borders, though that might be impossible to mod. Newer techs could give farther range, and the recon class could have the farthest.

 

[Afforess]

It's good to see you around again, Killtech! I'm curious to what you think of the latest AI.

To your point....

i suggest to make an add-on to realistic diplomacy mod: until the development of the radio you can only contact civs that are in your visual range or have a road connection to your empire. so if a civ moves all its units out of your visible domain you just lose the contact! this include the removal form the score board. however all peace agreements and open borders agreements will still be remembered. and if you wish to speak to that civ you'll be forced to send out an envoy to their lands.

This is a really good idea. So basically, you have to have borders nearby or units nearby to contact until radio? What about espionage? If I send a spy over, that shouldn't allow contact, right? Also, what about EP's? Should we still be able to invest EP's to faraway Civ's?

Also, I think this has the potential to make trading for contact vastly more useful. If you traded for contact you could talk to faraway Civ's, but they would forget about you if you didn't send some kind of emissary in a few turns, and you would have to trade contact again..

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

I no like this idea, in part. While it is true that civs did lose contact with each other over time. It is also true that some kept contact with far flung civs. Eg the Silk Road kept trade between the mid-east and far east open even if the countries involved did not have diplomatic relations with each other. Unfortunately you can't simulate a Silk Road in civ since China would need to trade 7 silk with the next neighbour to the west and so on so that the people of the Levenant would have enough silk for the to trade with the European civs.

Perhaps a maintenance cost on maintaining embassies? If a civ is "out-of-range" for x turns ask if you want to maintain the embassy and the cost is proportional to the distance. "Out-of-range" would be modified by tech research. Radio is far to late, for did not many rich civs have embassies everywhere before radio. The telegraph is probably a better end date for "out-of-range".

Trading contacts is where your civ embassy talks to other embassies in the civ. So I reckon that you should only be able to trade contact if both civs have an embassy in the civ doing the trading. Perhaps a new option trade for "knowledge of" which just shows the civ in the score board with out any other info?

"Out-of-range" perhaps this should be not distance from your boarder based but based on the number of civs between you and them? Hard to do either way.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

OK, I had my morning coffee now so lets see if I can explain myself better.

I like the idea of losing contact but not of loosing trade access. The problem with trade in Civ is that it does not resemble the real world. Historically items from the far east were be available, to the rich, in Europe in classical times. This was because trade went from one area to the next and the surplus ended up across the world. So in civ terms the region we call Italy was trading with the region we call China even though they had no contact. I have no idea how you would go about implementing that!

A suggestion.

1. "Trading contacts" with a civ should be only for civs that have an embassy in the civ doing the trading. Simulates one embassy talking to the other. Something that they did. Allows establishing embassy, espionage and shows where in the world the capital is.

2. A new feature "Trading knowledge of" which is for civs that do not have embassies in the trading civ. This provides less information than "trading contacts". It just tells you that such and such civ exists. Ie shows it on the scoreboard with no information except if you can can trade with it. No esp points can be spent. Does allow trade for resources if trade route exists.

3. New inter-civ action. Send exploration party. This party does not show map but can find the capital (% cahnce it is lost?) and allow the creation of an embassy. Perhaps a unit that appears in the capital after a number of turns representing travel time. Unit can't move and can only do action which allows establishment of embassy.

4. Loss of knowledge or embassy. Every so often, depending on map size and game speed and adjusted by current trades. A pop-up askes if you want to continue maintaining the embassy/contact. Cost based on "out-of-range" modifier and current relationship.

5. The "Out-of-range" penalty should be affected by tech and where your units are. Not just the relationship between your cultural boarders.

Still needs some thought.

 

[Alorente]

finally someone else who has a problem with this early on whole world discovery!

@Afforess: nope it's not the difficulty setting that is the problem here. in my games i play usually something between emperor and deity difficulty and it's the same here. the open borders agreements don't always decide how much of the world you can discover early on - it's very dependent on the map you're playing. however if you play with minor civ start, which i do, you are free to discover just too much. so when map trading is unlocked i see the whole world shortly afterwards... no need for satellites.

however the scouting itself isn't the core of the problem thus the supply mod won't be a satisfying solution. the problem is that you'll have contact to most of the civs in the world in the classic age - especially because you can trade with contacts - which i find quite absurd btw 'cause i can't imagine how that should work in reality. furthermore this possibility to have contact to everyone makes it very easy for a player to acquire any newly discovered techs form all over the world. but i admit that i didn't played the newest AND mod so far thus i don't know if that has changed.

i suggest to make an add-on to realistic diplomacy mod: until the development of the radio you can only contact civs that are in your visual range or have a road connection to your empire. so if a civ moves all its units out of your visible domain you just lose the contact! this include the removal form the score board. however all peace agreements and open borders agreements will still be remembered. and if you wish to speak to that civ you'll be forced to send out an envoy to their lands.

I love your idea, but why until Radio? Why not always? If you can't see them or have a way to reach them (roads, airports, etc.) you should not have contact, period. You can have temporary contact by sending an emissary by boat, but there should be physical or visual connection to maintain contact and thus have embassies, etc.

I think that would make the exploration and diplomacy side of the game a lot more interesting and complex.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

If you they and every civ in between have the National Courier System then establishing and maintaining embassies should be a snap. Time consuming and costly, but then what are unwanted relatives for. The wild lands between the civs would still cause problems however.

 

[Killtech]

It's good to see you around again, Killtech! I'm curious to what you think of the latest AI.

didn't have much time lately. just downloaded the newest version yesterday but i didn't have the time to start a new game . but from all i read in the forum it seems AI is becoming better.

This is a really good idea. So basically, you have to have borders nearby or units nearby to contact until radio? What about espionage? If I send a spy over, that shouldn't allow contact, right? Also, what about EP's? Should we still be able to invest EP's to faraway Civ's?

i admit i didn't think about espionage in this context. espionage so early in the game is a bit strange anyway. but yes, spies should be handled as any other unit... i don't see enough reason for the extra work to handle them differently. about the EPs ... well, i'm not sure about this. maybe spending EPs on another civ should have the same prerequisite as trade e.g. a road connection? since i suggested that road connection is enough to keep diplomatic contact (if out of sight) this would be a possible solution.

I no like this idea, in part. While it is true that civs did lose contact with each other over time. It is also true that some kept contact with far flung civs. Eg the Silk Road kept trade between the mid-east and far east open even if the countries involved did not have diplomatic relations with each other. Unfortunately you can't simulate a Silk Road in civ since China would need to trade 7 silk with the next neighbour to the west and so on so that the people of the Levenant would have enough silk for the to trade with the European civs.

that's why i added trade connection as the other possibility to keep diplomatic contact - it would be strange if you could sign resource trade but the diplomatic contact would cut off and make it impossible so cancel the deal.

Perhaps a maintenance cost on maintaining embassies? If a civ is "out-of-range" for x turns ask if you want to maintain the embassy and the cost is proportional to the distance. "Out-of-range" would be modified by tech research. Radio is far to late, for did not many rich civs have embassies everywhere before radio. The telegraph is probably a better end date for "out-of-range".

Trading contacts is where your civ embassy talks to other embassies in the civ. So I reckon that you should only be able to trade contact if both civs have an embassy in the civ doing the trading. Perhaps a new option trade for "knowledge of" which just shows the civ in the score board with out any other info?

"Out-of-range" perhaps this should be not distance from your boarder based but based on the number of civs between you and them? Hard to do either way.

Also, I think this has the potential to make trading for contact vastly more useful. If you traded for contact you could talk to faraway Civ's, but they would forget about you if you didn't send some kind of emissary in a few turns, and you would have to trade contact again..

good point about the embassies. indeed they are exactly intended for that purpose: diplomatic contact. but i think a trade connection should be a prerequisite for an embassy anyway. furthermore the idea of an upkeep for distant embassies is intriguing. if you do not like the prerequisite for embassies there should at least be a high upkeep for such that don't have a trade connection. however one detail to consider: if war is declared than contact will be lost if no trade connection exists. not sure if that's a bad thing.

1. "Trading contacts" with a civ should be only for civs that have an embassy in the civ doing the trading. Simulates one embassy talking to the other. Something that they did. Allows establishing embassy, espionage and shows where in the world the capital is.

makes sense to me.

2. A new feature "Trading knowledge of" which is for civs that do not have embassies in the trading civ. This provides less information than "trading contacts". It just tells you that such and such civ exists. Ie shows it on the scoreboard with no information except if you can can trade with it. No esp points can be spent. Does allow trade for resources if trade route exists.

interesting. could be made into an espionage thing as well: if you have have enough EPs on a civ A then all the contacts A haswith civs you don't have contact will appear on your scoreborad - though you still woun't be able to contact them.

3. New inter-civ action. Send exploration party. This party does not show map but can find the capital (% cahnce it is lost?) and allow the creation of an embassy. Perhaps a unit that appears in the capital after a number of turns representing travel time. Unit can't move and can only do action which allows establishment of embassy.

ok... but still i'd like to see there a prerequisite of a trade connection or a high upkeep for an embassy without one!

4. Loss of knowledge or embassy. Every so often, depending on map size and game speed and adjusted by current trades. A pop-up askes if you want to continue maintaining the embassy/contact. Cost based on "out-of-range" modifier and current relationship.

5. The "Out-of-range" penalty should be affected by tech and where your units are. Not just the relationship between your cultural boarders.

so point 4 is just a new event? i do not disapprove.
as to number 5: as i said: large penalty for embassies without trade connection. but if you ask me i'd just not allow them.

I love your idea, but why until Radio? Why not always? If you can't see them or have a way to reach them (roads, airports, etc.) you should not have contact, period. You can have temporary contact by sending an emissary by boat, but there should be physical or visual connection to maintain contact and thus have embassies, etc.

i think you misunderstood me (or i formulated it wrong): if you have radio tech (or telegraphy like Dancing Hoskuld suggested) diplomatic contacts do not fade anymore. considering that in our present time it's becoming even hard to be unreachable since the development of cellular phones...

 

[Afforess]

i admit i didn't think about espionage in this context. espionage so early in the game is a bit strange anyway. but yes, spies should be handled as any other unit... i don't see enough reason for the extra work to handle them differently. about the EPs ... well, i'm not sure about this. maybe spending EPs on another civ should have the same prerequisite as trade e.g. a road connection? since i suggested that road connection is enough to keep diplomatic contact (if out of sight) this would be a possible solution.

Hmm, a road network sounds sensible. However, I can often get a lot of water routes on the coast quickly, those should count as well.

good point about the embassies. indeed they are exactly intended for that purpose: diplomatic contact. but i think a trade connection should be a prerequisite for an embassy anyway. furthermore the idea of an upkeep for distant embassies is intriguing. if you do not like the prerequisite for embassies there should at least be a high upkeep for such that don't have a trade connection.

This makes me almost think Embassies should not be a dual trade item, but a single item. Otherwise it will entitle both players to fines.... However, one player having an embassy, and the other not seems odd.


So, to summarize our ideas:

Until a specific tech (Radio atm), you can only contact civilizations you have met that have direct trade routes to you, adjacent borders to, embassies with, or have outstanding trade deals with. Otherwise, the connections will fade and you will have to re-establish contact with the civilizations.

 

[xcrissxcrossx]

I love this Idea. I remember playing a mod that was a lot like this (I think it was Rhye's and Fall of Mankind, but not sure). It fixes some of the problems I was describing. Not really the part about discovering all civilizations on the map before the classical era, but it is a step in the right direction.

 

[Killtech]

Hmm, a road network sounds sensible. However, I can often get a lot of water routes on the coast quickly, those should count as well.

yes, that's what i ment with trade connection.

This makes me almost think Embassies should not be a dual trade item, but a single item. Otherwise it will entitle both players to fines.... However, one player having an embassy, and the other not seems odd.

i don't find that odd. it's just not typical for out present times. rome maintained embassy-like institutions with the many small tribes and nations beyond the empires borders but these tribes didn't have any diplomats in rome.

didn't embassies work one-directional in civ 1, too?