Could you maybe make Basium and Hyborem playable from the beginning instead?

[Cuteunit]

Because they're not that interesting right now, at all.

Creating basium's bad, the AI you're saddled with is too stupid, and you can't really say " AI that used to be me, please join me to declare war on Auric Ulvin in about 20 turns, and stop researching X when we need Y".

Hyborem always spawns in some useless spot where he can't really expand anyways.

 

[Roghar]

I don't think they are really suited to being there at the start, they would be too powerful and loses their special nature. I agree on the problems though..

Why not have Hyborem start in the same way as Basium, he takes over the city that builds a wonder to release him? That way you can guarantee he gets a good starting spot to work from. If that requires a similar alliance to the Baisum/good civ one shouldn't be a problem?

No tweaking of other things is going to make up for the fact that the AI for them is really stupid. I think we just have to wait until AI improvements become the game focus.

 

[Sureshot]

might be neat that if when you summon and choose to play as the mercurians or infernal that all your old cities immediately convert to yours as your new civ, and the old way is just for when you dont take over.

that way if you become mercurians, youre not saddled with an AI you dont want (sometimes i purposefully get my ai killed) and a huge tech penalty, and get to keep your old empire.
and if youre infernal you dont get stuck with a crappy spot, and get to keep your old empire (without having to leave your old empire weak and undefended and reload til you get your infernal start nearby).

 

[Nimbus]

If the hereos, Hyborem and Basium, were buildable as they were back in 016 and the Infernals did not start automatically get the Ashen Veil until Hyborem the hero came into the game then they could be playable from the beginning again as they were back in 016 and we would not have the where are they going to spawn or will they be able to spawn problem. Tie Hyborem to the Ashen Veil tech and tie manes/hell terrain spread to either corruption of spirit or infernal pact, likewise tie Basium and Angels to the Order.

 

[SwordofStriker]

Because they're not that interesting right now, at all.

Creating basium's bad, the AI you're saddled with is too stupid, and you can't really say " AI that used to be me, please join me to declare war on Auric Ulvin in about 20 turns, and stop researching X when we need Y".

Hyborem always spawns in some useless spot where he can't really expand anyways.

The problem is they typically come in so late that they are much weaker than the other civs out there. I've found that if you rush them though, they can become powerhouses relatively early.

Of course, you can't really spend your time rushing them in a competitive multi-player game when there are much more important techs you need, but single player is an entirely different story.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

I don't like the idea of making them start the game from the beginning, but I am open to changes. I wouldn't mind borrowing Rhye's auto-play mechanic and let you start a game in progress as one of these civs.

Generally, I think that these 2 civs should be seriously overpowered so that you would want to play as them. (That the approach I take in my modmod)


I would also like a way to break a permanent alliance. I thought that some code tied to Basiums new Equipment (Malleus Vindex, "The Avenging Hammer") that kills demons on his tile and declares war on their owner (I'll probably change this mechanic significantly) would make him break the alliance with and declare war on his ally if the ally starts using demons. This isn't working out like that.


I'm also considering replacing the permanent alliance with a vassalage agreement, and making a similar agreement with Hyborem (which one should be the master though?)

 

[MalkutX]

Can't you play as the Infernals by using the world builder to grant yourself the tech that summons them? Unlike the Mercurians, you don't have to build anything to make them appear, they show up as soon as someone gains that technology.

I don't really understand what triggers the Mercurians, but that might be possible with the world builder, too.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

Building the Mercurian Gate. You can't build it in Worldbuilder (merely placing in a city isn't good enough), but you can give yourself the prerequisite tech and a great engineer to rush the wonder.

 

[Nikis-Knight]

I don't like the idea of making them start the game from the beginning, but I am open to changes. I wouldn't mind borrowing Rhye's auto-play mechanic and let you start a game in progress as one of these civs.

Problem is, you wouldn't be garunteed ever entering the game, that'd be frustrating.

I'm also considering replacing the permanent alliance with a vassalage agreement, and making a similar agreement with Hyborem (which one should be the master though?)

Vasselage would be interesting, so long as the player is the master no matter what (I don't think civ is set up for player vassels, it'd be worse than a PA anyway)

 

[xienwolf]

I really do like the idea of completely swapping your current civ for the new one if you elect to switch, and running it for the AI as is now if you choose not to. It will still have significant effect on your playstyle, and be a fun and interesting move instead of a way to make yourself struggle seriously to catch up to where you had been.

 

[MalkutX]

Building the Mercurian Gate. You can't build it in Worldbuilder (merely placing in a city isn't good enough), but you can give yourself the prerequisite tech and a great engineer to rush the wonder.

Bingo.

So, if you really want to start as them, it's possible.

 

[Cuteunit]

The idea of turning your entire empire into the empire of the mercurians or the infernals makes a LOT more sense gameplay wise than just giving over one city/having them spawn somewhere useless.

i'd be much more interested in building the mercurian gate under those conditions.

I'd still rather they were playable at game start though, with a little balance adjustment.

 

[xienwolf]

I think I'd even be willing to go with all cities being "freshly captured" so that there are a couple turns of revolt and whatnot, and all of your unique buildings are destroyed (especially fitting for Hyborem, when everyone realizes that their leader was slain/eaten/replaced when he was supposed to be signing a compact for eternal power).

 

[OzzyKP]

I really like the current mechanism. IMHO the Infernals and Mercurians are perfect, they just need a boost to their AI. If Hyborem actually started attacking people instead of just sitting in some crappy ice city all game, they'd be a fierce competitor. In most games I've seen, the Infernal starting units are strong enough to carve out a nice sized empire if they were just more aggressive.

Perhaps the Infernals could be more likely to be placed next to a good civ, and more likely to go to war with them. I love games where I start at a disadvantage and am surrounded by enemies. Spawning midgame is great fun.

 

[Mewtarthio]

I like a suggestion I saw earlier in this forum: Have Hyborem spawn with a number of units based off the powergraph of the guy in first or second place. Thus, when Hyborem enters the world, he's automatically the strongest guy on Erebus.

 

[jprc]

I agree with Xienwolf, this "swapping" idea is very pleasant!

However, there are also another weakness with these civs. they are totally unaware that they can attack by boat!
I never ever saw Basium or the Hyborem actually mounting an amphibian assault!
Several time, I watched the Hyborem desperately locked on a tiny highland, and never have the idea of boarding some troops for attacking all foes.
It is also too common to have Basium locked in a hinterland city, mostly trapped into his teammate's land. Ok, it is the player's choice, except when the AI does it, so then if you are evil and on another continent, you are pretty relax!!!

I would also introduce 2 things on Basium and Hyborem:
1- they should always have access to sea if any on the map (ex.: can be build only in city with harbor?)
2- they should have the AI tune up for having them actively using ships and troops on ships, and do amphibious actions.

Besides, They should both have
- a real big culture bonus (+200%?) only in the capital: I guess other friendly civilizations are supposed to be in awe of their evil/angel power. This would make the choice of where to make Basium a bit trickier. You don't want to have a city with a 200% culture bonus too close from your own cities! Placing them on the edge of your land (ex... coastal) would be then a better choice.
- (Perhaps is it already implemented) have no unhappiness in their capital. After all, they come straight from hell/heaven, and the capital is a direct extension of their realm.

 

[Sarisin]

I mentioned elsewhere that the combination of bugs and horrible ally AI makes the Mercurians just about unplayable. Add in the hit you take in Research and you quickly fall behind. So, unless, you can overcome the bugs and AI and take on everyone, you are screwed.

I like the idea of Becoming Basium or Becoming Hyborem. However, that might create a juggernaut that needs tinkering. Consider you already likely have a national hero, maybe more, and now you get Basium or Hyborem. So, you might have to lose somebody when you take over.

I think it would solve the ally AI problem, though, as you would not have cities being set up with no defenders and Workers building forts on your farms just to mention a few. You would control everything.

Also, you would not have to rebuild things that were already there in the city you take over - you would keep everything you already did.

OK, Magister, please put this in your mod ASAP. Please.

 

[Monkeyfinger]

I'd be surprised if this were even possible to code, but I think what would kick dick is if when you summoned Basium, a menu of all your cities appeared, and you chose which ones to hand over. There'd be a minimum of 1 and a max of, oh, say, half your culture worth of cities. (Half your cities would encourage you to spam worthless cities in the ass end of nowhere, and leave them in the hands of whoever you don't want to be, while half your population would encourage you to starve your best cities down to nothing then assign them to whoever you are going to chose and let them regrow.) After that process, you choose whether or not to switch.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

I'm leaning towards making the relationship between hyborem/basium and his summoner be vassalage, but I don't know how to handle the popups or to determine whether the human chose to switch or not.

 

[OzzyKP]

Ok, this screen shot of the power graph at the end of my most recent game demonstrates my point quite clearly. The Infernals don't need to be boosted, when they come into the game they are waaaay stronger than everyone else. They are like 3 or 4 times more powerful than their closest neighbor, Cardith but they don't attack. They just sit there doing nothing. Even with me razing a dozen cities and giving the Infernals enough souls to build a 50+ city, they just sit.

Finally they go to war with Cardith and... they lose. But I saw them moving Hyborem deep into Cardith's territory while injured and without any other units to guard him. So yea, he died. If they had started at war at the beginning (and not been stupid) things could have turned out much differently.

The only problem is the AI. Both civs (or at least Infernals, as I haven't tried Basium yet) are pretty bad ass. They just need someone competent in control.