Counter to Sheaim Fire Zombies?

[Kamiro]

I've been playing for quite some time and have always had problems with Fire Zombies. No stack can seem to stand up to a fire zombie stack head on, so I've had to resort to AE spells (which I dislike using as it feels like EZ mode), hit and run horse archers, or kiting the stack and hitting it with summonables such as specters. Is there something I'm missing?

In my last game Sheaim had Rosiem the fallen leading 30 mages, 32 fire zombies and 28 skeletons on turn 240. The stack was spitting out spectres like there was no tomorrow and comparable AI armies were dropping like flies to it. It was pretty impressive, but seemed overpowering as 10 fire zombies can pretty much wipe out any army that faces it head on.

Was the Sheaim supposed to represent a super faction in the game?

 

[Senethro]

In human hands Pyre Zombies (PZs) aren't quite that bad because they won't have as many of them. The computer gets them for cheap. In the numbers that the computer fields them there isn't a counter to them. They're too good. But you can beat them by exploiting the AI. Sacrifice 8 warriors to the PZ stack or however many you can afford, by putting them in their way. This will cause the stack to split up. You can now hit the small damaged trailing PZs to damage the main stack. At that point you can either dogpile them with warriors and trade evenly or do hit and run with other units. Don't take too long though or the PZs will heal up.

Sheaim Spectre mages are the other big problem but thankfully they don't appear so early. Count the number of Death manas the Sheaim player has and you'll know how strong the spectres are. Its goign to be Str3 +no. of Death. If they get 3 Death Nodes, the broken sepulchre and keep their palace mana the Spectres will be Str 8. In this case you'll have to send a commando team into their territory to raze nodes and de-power them.

Because the Magestack has to move around in a great big slow blob it may be a good idea anyway to send fast units behind them and try to raze a few of their cities. Could get their attention.

Finally, summoning armies often rely too much on their free units causing damage over several turns. If you stack Courage (Spirit I), Regeneration (Body II), Priest's Medic II, Herbalists +10%, Body Manas bonus, then you can heal by as much as 70% a turn. The Spectres will become a source of XP, not a threat.

 

[Nor'easter]

I actually commented on this issue in the Balance Thread and urged that the damage caused by exploding Pyre Zombies be reduced, or that the total damage be capped. There were other comments in that thread, but we didn't hear from Kael, so he might be happy with it as it is.

Most area of effect spells come kind late to really be an effective counter to Pyre Zombies, I think.

In the early game, one counter would be stacks of catapults. Use them to weaken the enemy Pyre Zombie stacks and then mop up with your regular units. I discovered that in a recent game where I had the Sheaim as my neighbors and did not go for siege -- their stacks completely killed me.

 

[Tlalynet]

I forgot the pyro zombie damadge cap thing, that should have been in the poll I created...

Anything with 2 moves in your own territory can take them down, just move on a road, attack, and move back. You can't stack attack so its a micromanadgment pain, but once they are weak enough you can start killing them you won't suffer much pyro damage.

 

[Kamiro]

Yeah, that's kind of what I figured. Consensus says Pyre zombies are manageable, albeit painfully so. Regretfully, it's not manageable to other AI and they seem to be simply steamrolled. It's strange that AE spells are capped, while Pyre zombies damage is not. It would be nice to see either capped damage or change it to collateral damage. I'll probably end up modding it myself, but part of me likes the challenge.

Speaking of modding, do any of you know where the doDamage function is defined? Is it in the DLL? I was tracing back the Pyre Zombies explosion routine and pretty much ended at:

pUnit.doDamage(10, 100, pCaster, gc.getInfoTypeForString('DAMAGE_FIRE'), false)

 

[Tlalynet]

<Strategy>TXT_KEY_UNIT_PYRE_ZOMBIE_STRATEGY</Strategy>

Wow, it has its own strategy, thats pretty cool.


It has
<bExplodeInCombat>1</bExplodeInCombat>
Followed by
<PythonPostCombatLost>postCombatExplode(pCaster,pOpponent)</PythonPostCombatLost>
In the XML tags, so I guess the explosion and all its details are handled by python.

I don't know where the do.Damage function is defined, but if anyone knows how to put a damage cap on these guys I'd be glad to know. I've already modded warriors (and hunting and IW just to see) in my own game. Now that I've started modmoding I might as well customize.

Pity I have to do it again next time the game is patched, thats why I've avoided modding FFH so far.

 

[Tasunke]

There are plenty of counters to Shieam Pyre Zombies .... however none of them are pleasant and they all take more time to set up than the Computer can set-up Pyre Zombies.

1) if your orcs, warrens are your friend. Simply throw conventional troops at them (partially en masse). If you have an indefinitely sized pyre zombie stack, throw another idefinitely sized stack at it about 5 iron axemen at a time ..... wait I meant 5 units at a time. While technically its probably best to attack only one unit at a time. This means either have mobility, roads, body mana, or preferably all three. This way your troops can be safely away from the pyre zombies while poor mooks are thrown at them one (or 5) at a time. I've found 5 at a time is the most efficient when you have a turn timer, such as a multiplayer game. This at least at stacks of around 15-25 units per. With smaller stacks, probably attack less at a time (2 or 3).

Point is, sheer numbers will work if your able to keep the rest of your army at a distance, so that the effect of the zombies is only applied to each unit after the moment of their attack. This in essence attacks your army with only one "blast" of Pyre Zombie death if you attacked one each. Well, thats only if your also able to retreat after battle as well. If not then after the first battle your cooked, however you achieved your desire to destroy the zombies. Its truly attrition warfare at its worst.

Another way to kill the Pyre Zombies is with massive amounts of first strikes. If a pyre zombie is killed by first strikes, its fire blast will not trigger IIRC.

Also, enough blasts of Destroy Undead will completely destroy an indefinite number of pyre zombies (or any other undead unit). This *enough blasts* is anywhere from 3-5 mages depending on how strong they are. However, a Gibbon Goetia (or other arcane Hero) with mobility 1, Life 2, and plenty of combat promos is an excellent way to fight against them.

Therefore, I ask you to (if Shieam are nearby and will be a HUGE problem) beeline Deception and Divination(if u don't start with Life mana), build archers and horse archers, and do all first strikes, and attack from a distance and only one at a time (or very small groups).

The use of Catapults and/OR high withdrawal cavalry units also works as an excellent pre-battle prep tool. The most efficient use of this is an average sized stack of Cavalry with at least Flanking 2 each. Then have enough movement to race away after doing the prep work. Then try to kill the zombies with the weakest units as possible, or any HorseArchers/Archers with enough drill promos (at least 2). Also ... be sure to use any Destroy Undead spells as possible after your Withdrawal prep work (not before because its less efficient at least en masse).

So if you combine Life 2, withdrawal, first strikes, and attacking one at a time from a distance, with (hopefully) enough movement to run away before the next mook attacks, you should be set to deal with Pyre Zombies. Still mind you, against the AI Life2 is the most effective way of disposing of Pyre Zombies, so if the Pyre Zombies are your primary concern for game X in question, and its still fairly early in the game, beeline Deception and get Life 2 from Gibbon Goetia.

 

[Neomega]

The use of Catapults and/

catapults are a bad idea. I learned this lesson once. they only withdraw to the tile next to the zombies. One dead pyre zombie, and you lose all your catapults, (because they are super-weak from attacking)

 

[Kamiro]

It's in the DLL. The source for it is cvUnit.cpp. It's been about 15 years since I've programmed in C, but it looks as though Pyre Zombies get a damage boost with their combat promotions as their burst is considered a spell (fire). There are also resistances for level, unit defense value, terrain and promotion defense. A unit is effectively immune if he takes magic resistance, fire resistance and is 5th lvl or higher.

iResist = baseCombatStrDefense() *2;
iResist += getLevel() * 2;
if (plot()->getPlotCity() != NULL)
{
iResist += (plot()->getPlotCity()->getDefenseModifier(false) / 4);
}

if (pAttacker != NULL && iDmgType != DAMAGE_PHYSICAL)
{
iDmg += pAttacker->getSpellDamageModify();
}

As a FYI, doDamage's variables are :
damage, maxdamage, attacking unit, damage type, start war

So if you wanted to tone down Pyre Zombies you could simply set a lower maxdamage to make it on par with spells.

For instance :
Changing line number 121 in /assets/python/entrypoints/CvSpellInterface.py
from
pUnit.doDamage(10, 100, pCaster, gc.getInfoTypeForString('DAMAGE_FIRE'), false)
to
pUnit.doDamage(10, 35, pCaster, gc.getInfoTypeForString('DAMAGE_FIRE'), false)

 

[Kamiro]

Another way to kill the Pyre Zombies is with massive amounts of first strikes. If a pyre zombie is killed by first strikes, its fire blast will not trigger IIRC.

Good stuff there Tasunke, thanks. It's interesting that first strikes don't trigger the explosion.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

Yeah, that's kind of what I figured. Consensus says Pyre zombies are manageable, albeit painfully so. Regretfully, it's not manageable to other AI and they seem to be simply steamrolled. It's strange that AE spells are capped, while Pyre zombies damage is not. It would be nice to see either capped damage or change it to collateral damage. I'll probably end up modding it myself, but part of me likes the challenge.

Speaking of modding, do any of you know where the doDamage function is defined? Is it in the DLL? I was tracing back the Pyre Zombies explosion routine and pretty much ended at:

pUnit.doDamage(10, 100, pCaster, gc.getInfoTypeForString('DAMAGE_FIRE'), false)

<Strategy>TXT_KEY_UNIT_PYRE_ZOMBIE_STRATEGY</Strategy>

Wow, it has its own strategy, thats pretty cool.


It has
<bExplodeInCombat>1</bExplodeInCombat>
Followed by
<PythonPostCombatLost>postCombatExplode(pCaster,pOpponent)</PythonPostCombatLost>
In the XML tags, so I guess the explosion and all its details are handled by python.

I don't know where the do.Damage function is defined, but if anyone knows how to put a damage cap on these guys I'd be glad to know. I've already modded warriors (and hunting and IW just to see) in my own game. Now that I've started modmoding I might as well customize.

Pity I have to do it again next time the game is patched, thats why I've avoided modding FFH so far.

doDamage is defined in the DLL, specifically CvUnit.cpp of the source code.



I'm pretty sure that <bExplodeInCombat>1</bExplodeInCombat> simply makes it go that their dying animation is an explosion. It is purely graphical, having no effect on their ability to do damage upon death.

It is
<PythonPostCombatLost>postCombatExplode(pCaster,pOpponent)</PythonPostCombatLost> that calls pUnit.doDamage(10, 100, pCaster, gc.getInfoTypeForString('DAMAGE_FIRE'), false) for each unit in the opponent's stack.


The first parameter of doDamage is the average amount of damage it deals, before being modified by the caster's promotions.

The second parameter is the damage cap. UNits cannot be injured more than 1-this number %. That means if you make this number anything less than 100, then Pyre Zombie explosions will never be lethal.


The third parameter refers to the caster, so that it knows what promotions may modify the damage and it knows who is damaging enemy units in case it can result in war.


The fourth parameter is the damage type.

The final parameter determines whether doing damage will cause the caster's team to declare war on the victim's team.

 

[Tlalynet]

That's it then, Change 100 to 99 and I'm good to go.

Thanks Kamiro and Magister

 

[FireBlaze]

The best idea would just be to rush them before they can get pyre zombies. Or at least a sizable amount.

 

[a_civilian]

Being the AI, however, they are typically able to upgrade all of their warriors to pyre zombies as soon as they get bronze working.

 

[Onionsoilder]

Being the AI, however, they are typically able to upgrade all of their warriors to pyre zombies as soon as they get bronze working.

And being the AI, they typically get Bronze Working before you do.

At least on higher difficulties.

Best way I've found to deal with them is to use warriors as bait, to keep them away from your cities. Then you can slowly pick them off. It's better if you have summons, skeletons are the earliest unless you're balserphs or illians.

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

mounted units. hit and retreat, one at a time. boring but reliable. best thing is if you see them coming, move closer to them and make sure you attack them on a flat tile.

 

[DaveGold]

The splash damage is related to their remaining life, so you can try knocking them down to half health then kill. This might be where catapults come in. Flanking troops might be worth a try.

If you can split up the zombie stack you can then get the zombies to splash each other in adjacent squares. This is very good if you can do it but you generally need excess/quality troops of your own to make it happen, something not always available.

 

[Tasunke]

catapults are a bad idea. I learned this lesson once. they only withdraw to the tile next to the zombies. One dead pyre zombie, and you lose all your catapults, (because they are super-weak from attacking)

Yes, of course you lose all your catapults, thats why using High Withdrawal Horse Archers are more effiecient.

I played a game as the Orcs were I probably lost 40-60 orcish axemen over the course of the war, but eventually all the Pyre Zombies were dead. Now, Catapults are certainly more valuable ... im just giving ways to kill them. But yes, the use of cats is usually inadvisable UNLESS!!! your either using Life 2 to peacefully kill the zombies right afterwards OR you can afford to lose those catapults, and losing catapults is for some reason more favored than losing any of ur living units.

Perhaps its just a production based/ situational Option Strat. Still, it can be used. But yea, usually not worth centering a strategy around sadly :/

 

[Nor'easter]

Destroy Undead is a very useful spell against these guys, but only if you encounter them relatively late in the game. Mages come along pretty late, compared to how early the Sheaim can get Pyre Zombies.

If you're facing these guys earlier, you can't rely on Life II Mages, but will have to use some combination of mounted units, catapults, and simple outproducing of your rivals so your units will be the last ones standing after you take out a Sheaim stack.

 

[KnightBoat]

Hmm, not sure if I'm remembering this correctly, but I think I was playing recently as the Elohim on a Monarch Pangaea map. Came up against the Sheaim and huge PZ stacks. I ended up building Devouts, who come with Life I, and then upgrading them right away to whatever Priests line I had (Vicars I think). Instant Life II priests = useless undead stack!