[GS] Courser and Cuirassiers

Lily_Lancer

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Courser, cost 200 prod, strength unknown, uses horses. As for its replacement, black army costs 215 with 50 strength.

Cuirassier, 330 prod heavy cavalry with 64 strength, 4 movement, surely better than Cavalry. Uses nitre.


So which one is better, horseman-courser-cavalry route , or chariot-knight-cuirassier route?


At least mounted units become much stronger in GS due to the choice of upgrading route.
 
The Courser is Move 5, Strength 44.

It's a Medieval unit, so it should be compared with the Knight (Move 4, Strength 48), which it's contemporary with. Both use Horses. The Cuirassier is Industrial age, contemporary with Cavalry (Move 5, Strength 62). Both use Niter.

However, I'm not sure comparison makes a lot of sense anyway. Light Cavalry is faster, Heavy Cavalry is stronger. They have different promotion trees and fill different roles.
 
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Yes, Coursers are 44 strength. Apparently they come with castles(?), which is the same row as knights.

Combined with Scythias +5 combat & effective 100% production boost this is extremely strong. Especially if you later on produce corps & armies.

However, the promotion tree of heavy cavalry is slightly better. Highly upgraded knights might work better against cities. On the other side light cavalry has better flanking & you can supply light cavalry escort with siege support.
 
The existence of the Courser means that Scythia doesn't have a weak midgame; it got even stronger relative to vanilla/R&F.
Coursers getting 5 (!) Move in Medieval is pretty strong; they can outrun every other land unit in the game. They'll lose a straight up fight against Knights and Pikemen, but you can get around them anyway.
 
With the change of knights requiring horses, there is an interesting choice in medieval:
build 44str/5move courser for 200 that upgrades to 62 str cav
build 48str/4move knight for 180 that upgrades to 64 str cuir
I bet you can guess which will be more popular.
This is not a very good change, IMO. Knights were differentiated by the iron usage. Now the premier units until the modern era are strictly horses and niter.
This also has huge implications for the classical battlefield. Horsemen were only kept down by a lack of upgrade; now that they get one, people will quickly realize two things:
1) Horses are easier to get than iron and horsemen are cheaper than swords (80? v 90) and horses are faster than swords
2) Horses have the same strength as swords (36) and both beat spears 1 on 1 (+1 and +21)

So horses, which were sleeping giants, can wake up and pivot their momentum into coursers to continue the reign of terror. The Black Army needs to be nerfed in strength because 50 strength for any medieval unit is just straight bonkers. Only losing by 1 to pikes and costing almost the same? Yeah, get out of here- +6 str is like a 25%ish boost, plus they can levy units for maximum cheese. Let's also not forget that Poland has the winged Hussar heavy cav that is essentially a renaissance unit even though it comes at mercenaries- now they get an upgrade too.

But, we also see that the unit gaps theory comes to a head in the cuirasser. Cuirs are actually weaker than i thought they would be, only 64 str. But they 'have to be' because the anticav unit available to handle them is only 55str pike and shot; so they can still "beat" cuirs by 1 point.

There's also the huge issue that with the stockpiles limitation being pretty small unless you invest in encampments (and you have to have resources to begin with) that the fabled "peaceful builder" civ will discover they cannot rely on xbows and pikes very well. Xbows might do okay holding off coursers but they cannot handle knights- which are cheaper and require the same horses as coursers. Pikes don't counter knights in practice because they are so expensive.

Ending note:
Combined with Scythias +5 combat & effective 100% production boost this is extremely strong.
I would be very very happy if they changed scythia's ability to instead be +1/+2 horses from horse resources than the double units they get now. It's more sane and better represents, I think, the intention of the civ. In the same way I would be happy if Venetian Arsenal just halved the resource cost of ships.
 
Oh, another thing: just got off the phone with the mongols, they say the bulldozers are coming to flatten a civ near you.
+3 mounted str universally and +1 move from the stable is only going to further skew how good these new unit choices are. They won't have anything stopping them.
 
This also has huge implications for the classical battlefield. Horsemen were only kept down by a lack of upgrade; now that they get one, people will quickly realize two things:
1) Horses are easier to get than iron and horsemen are cheaper than swords (80? v 90) and horses are faster than swords
2) Horses have the same strength as swords (36) and both beat spears 1 on 1 (+1 and +21)

So horses, which were sleeping giants, can wake up and pivot their momentum into coursers to continue the reign of terror.

From what we've seen in GS so far; Basically the strong got stronger, with the narrow margin that they could be bottle-necked by strategics. I guess there could be a combat unit balance or strategic resource extraction rate modification just before release, but I doubt it. I'm still holding out hope that other unit compositions (skirmishers/spears) become more useful.
 
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From what we've seen in GS so far; Basically the strong got stronger, with the narrow margin that they could be bottle-necked by strategics.
At this point I'm not sure if they are focusing on strong units because people use them and they want to impact things people use, or if they stubbornly don't want to change pikes in particular as a point of pride.
I would love to hear more in depth discussion from Ed on why certain things are set the way they are. They clearly recognized that there are big drawbacks to the large unit gaps - which contributed to the vanilla unit balance we still have- but when they go and fill some gaps in, they are not then revisiting the vanilla balance that only existed because of those larger gaps. They aren't a competitive multiplayer game studio so I don't have hard feelings about it, though.
 
I find it hard to believe FXS would fill in Cav gaps, introduce resource limits, ... but then not fix (and actually make worse) the current units balancing.

We know they read these forums. The current issues have been talked through multiple times. How has this not been addressed? I’m stumped.

Maybe they’ll be a big balance pass closer to release. But yes, I doubt it too.
 
effective 100% production boost this is extremely strong.
As far as we know, there is no resource maintenance on early/mid game units.
So if they don't change Scythia to simply give them more horse resources as I suggested, I wonder if this will mean scythia can just bypass the resource requirement on the second unit - an exceeding strong feature. (Likewise with venetian arsenal and resource ships, although I think those actually need fuel maintenance.)

That said I am very sad that I might have to take a lot more oligarchy in my games to handle the coursers the Ai will upgrade from their horsemen. It's just brutal to me that you have to pick a certain gov't and slot the card to even have relevant anticav until pike'n'shot. (Recall that spears lose to horsemen 1v1. They also have half the movement. And they cost just 20% less than a horse!)
 
As far as we know, there is no resource maintenance on early/mid game units.
So if they don't change Scythia to simply give them more horse resources as I suggested, I wonder if this will mean scythia can just bypass the resource requirement on the second unit - an exceeding strong feature. (Likewise with venetian arsenal and resource ships, although I think those actually need fuel maintenance.)

I suspect that this was planned long ago. If they would just have wanted to give Scythia a production bonus, they would have given them a plain +100% production. Instead they gave them a 2 for 1 ability, which obviously includes saving resources.

Scythia is still hampered by upgrades, which might need horses & by maintenance. It might be difficult to upgrade large armies both because resources and gold. But even in that case, light cavalry corps & armies are competitive even when outdated.

I would be very very happy if they changed scythia's ability to instead be +1/+2 horses from horse resources than the double units they get now. It's more sane and better represents, I think, the intention of the civ. In the same way I would be happy if Venetian Arsenal just halved the resource cost of ships.

Would be ok, in that case Scythia could choose between heavy cavalry or light cavalry & since heavy cavalry is slightly better they could maybe decide for them instead.

However, given how over the top & unbalanced certain other civs are, I don't even think Scythia is the most pressing issue.

That said I am very sad that I might have to take a lot more oligarchy in my games to handle the coursers the Ai will upgrade from their horsemen. It's just brutal to me that you have to pick a certain gov't and slot the card to even have relevant anticav until pike'n'shot. (Recall that spears lose to horsemen 1v1. They also have half the movement. And they cost just 20% less than a horse!)

It is simply weird that a militaristic government would only benefit a specific unit type. If your "oligarchy" is so cool & has elite troops, then why only melee & anti-cavalry, why shouldn't archers, siege weapons or cavalry benefit as well?

Cavalry has it all: They are fast, strong & relatively cheap. Infantry is slow, they should be cheaper or stronger. Cavalry should be expensive.
 
I suspect that this was planned long ago. If they would just have wanted to give Scythia a production bonus, they would have given them a plain +100% production. Instead they gave them a 2 for 1 ability, which obviously includes saving resources.

Scythia is still hampered by upgrades, which might need horses & by maintenance. It might be difficult to upgrade large armies both because resources and gold. But even in that case, light cavalry corps & armies are competitive even when outdated.



Would be ok, in that case Scythia could choose between heavy cavalry or light cavalry & since heavy cavalry is slightly better they could maybe decide for them instead.

However, given how over the top & unbalanced certain other civs are, I don't even think Scythia is the most pressing issue.



It is simply weird that a militaristic government would only benefit a specific unit type. If your "oligarchy" is so cool & has elite troops, then why only melee & anti-cavalry, why shouldn't archers, siege weapons or cavalry benefit as well?

Cavalry has it all: They are fast, strong & relatively cheap. Infantry is slow, they should be cheaper or stronger. Cavalry should be expensive.

Logic aside, it’s quite a fun Mechanic that only Melee and Anti-Cav benefit from Oligarchy. It makes the comparison between Melee, AC and Cav way more interesting.

(I think Oligarchy also works for Naval Melee, although I might have mis-remembered.)
 
Logic aside, it’s quite a fun Mechanic that only Melee and Anti-Cav benefit from Oligarchy. It makes the comparison between Melee, AC and Cav way more interesting.

(I think Oligarchy also works for Naval Melee, although I might have mis-remembered.)

Then simply do it as a policy: Naval training -> your ships get +5 combat, infantry training -> your infantry is better, cavalry training -> your cavalry is better.

Yes, oligarchy works for naval melee. Sadly, there are few targets & with the introduction of loyalty & embarkation naval warfare is only relevant on archipelago.
 
To me, the point is that Cav can’t be boosted that way, only Melee / AC units. They’re deliberately asymmetrical.

You build Cav and they’re basically good to go. Melee, instead, involve more faffing around - get to tier one government, get the Oligarchy bonus, get a Great General for the movement, don’t get a tier 2 government or you’ll lose the bonus etc. ...

I’m not sure why I like this dynamic so much, but I really do. The game would be much the poorer if every unit class just got its own version of the Oligarchy boost.
 
To me, the point is that Cav can’t be boosted that way, only Melee / AC units. They’re deliberately asymmetrical.

You build Cav and they’re basically good to go. Melee, instead, involve more faffing around - get to tier one government, get the Oligarchy bonus, get a Great General for the movement, don’t get a tier 2 government or you’ll lose the bonus etc. ...

I’m not sure why I like this dynamic so much, but I really do. The game would be much the poorer if every unit class just got its own version of the Oligarchy boost.

In fact I never see Oligarchy useful and always pick Autocracy.
 
To me, the point is that Cav can’t be boosted that way, only Melee / AC units. They’re deliberately asymmetrical.

You build Cav and they’re basically good to go. Melee, instead, involve more faffing around - get to tier one government, get the Oligarchy bonus, get a Great General for the movement, don’t get a tier 2 government or you’ll lose the bonus etc. ...

I’m not sure why I like this dynamic so much, but I really do. The game would be much the poorer if every unit class just got its own version of the Oligarchy boost.

Why? Every unit class gets its production card. Seems odd to me that having a particular unit type might not only affect your military policies but also your choice of government. No other government type is this specific except theocracy with religious units and the reasons for that are pretty clear.
 
With the change of knights requiring horses, there is an interesting choice in medieval:
build 44str/5move courser for 200 that upgrades to 62 str cav
build 48str/4move knight for 180 that upgrades to 64 str cuir
I bet you can guess which will be more popular.
This is not a very good change, IMO. Knights were differentiated by the iron usage. Now the premier units until the modern era are strictly horses and niter.
This also has huge implications for the classical battlefield. Horsemen were only kept down by a lack of upgrade; now that they get one, people will quickly realize two things:
1) Horses are easier to get than iron and horsemen are cheaper than swords (80? v 90) and horses are faster than swords
2) Horses have the same strength as swords (36) and both beat spears 1 on 1 (+1 and +21)

So horses, which were sleeping giants, can wake up and pivot their momentum into coursers to continue the reign of terror. The Black Army needs to be nerfed in strength because 50 strength for any medieval unit is just straight bonkers. Only losing by 1 to pikes and costing almost the same? Yeah, get out of here- +6 str is like a 25%ish boost, plus they can levy units for maximum cheese. Let's also not forget that Poland has the winged Hussar heavy cav that is essentially a renaissance unit even though it comes at mercenaries- now they get an upgrade too.

But, we also see that the unit gaps theory comes to a head in the cuirasser. Cuirs are actually weaker than i thought they would be, only 64 str. But they 'have to be' because the anticav unit available to handle them is only 55str pike and shot; so they can still "beat" cuirs by 1 point.
I'm only a non-competitive player, and I only play against AI, so I'm not really going to pitch myself as an expert, I just want to say that the MOAR units mod used to have Cuirassiers at 66 strength, if I'm not mistaken, and they were absolute monsters. Particularly because they came just around the time where corps unlocked, so you'd soon see Cuirassiers corps coming in numbers which could be quite frightening if you were yourself running a bit behind on techs.

Anyway, I don't think there's ever going to be a way to make the units balanced if they don't throw in more modifiers. Pikes should have a stronger bonus against Cavalry. Cavalry should have a serious penalty against (walled) cities (because how often do you see a horse scale a city wall?). Ranged units should have a serious penalty against walled cities (but could have the option to target units in the garrison). If units are all just flat the same except for combat strength and movement, it's pretty obvious that the one with higher combat strength will be superior, even more so when it's also the one with the higher movement. Civ5 was much better in this regard, or maybe it was just the mods I used.
 
I'm only a non-competitive player, and I only play against AI, so I'm not really going to pitch myself as an expert,
It is good and healthy for these forums not to be dominated by deity players and minmaxers. Those who play the game as you do are probably the huge majority of the playerbase - and any discussion around units etc must consider this angle.
I just want to say that the MOAR units mod used to have Cuirassiers at 66 strength, if I'm not mistaken, and they were absolute monsters.
Dropping in units like a cuirassier runs into the problem where you have to consider not just the era it falls in, but also the units that will be around when it is both new and old.
A New Cuirassier faces little non mounted competition:
Muskets 55
Pike&Shot 55->65
Cavalry 62
Field Cannon 60 *50 (melee str)
Ranger 60 *45(melee str)
Because tanks come in the next era, cuirs are spared the issue of having to face down infantry and ATcrews unlike their cavalry brethren. The issue here is, of course, that the infantry lines don't have any industrial representation. So it looks like FXS decided to hold back Cuirs to 64 (should be 68) so Pike and Shot could beat them. This is a little better than the medieval situation, because at least here P&S cost 250 vs 330 for cav&cuirs. But of course, anyone who can build cuirs (niter) can also build muskets (niter), which are cheaper than P&S and hit them for +10.
Of course, if both mounted lines cost the same and use the same resource and cuirs have more strength, I have strong doubts players who aren't scythia won't just use the stronger line that also becomes tanks because killing units better is worth going from 4 to 5 move (both can cross two hills a turn anyways.) This is a strong argument for why light and heavy cav should never require the same resource.

If units are all just flat the same except for combat strength and movement, it's pretty obvious that the one with higher combat strength will be superior,
I have studied this for a long time. I think there were several key design ideas that all got mixed together.
One was that each unit line would have special attributes and uses- heavy cav hits harder, ranged pays for safety with reduced melee str, etc.
The next was that unit strength should rise by 10 points per era.
The third was that unit gaps will force players to vary their army.
The fourth is that cost is determined by what row of the tech tree units unlock in.
You can only sustainably have 3 of these 4 at once though. The first two are really good rules; the third is fine. Adding the cost rule just wrecks the entire game balance.
Ex:
1) heavy Chariots cost the same as spearmen, have 28 str, and 2 or 3 move. Spears can hit them for +7. (this is IMO the original & balanced design of how heavycav-anticav was supposed to work)
2) Horsemen are cheaper than swords even though they are faster and also have 36str.

I'll distill to this: they've clearly tweaked a ton of stuff from the original design to handle unit gaps making half the units useless. But the entire point of unit gaps was to tell players "suck it up" and deal with armies where half the units had the upper hand every era.

Anyway, I don't think there's ever going to be a way to make the units balanced if they don't throw in more modifiers.
I could write an opus on this topic. I think a lot of players agree with you here. We literally went through this in civ5.
 
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