[BTS] Crashmon Shadow Game 2 :- Emperor

[sampsa]

I want that gold before Rome / India gets it

Without that desert gold is totally irrelevant. FOOD! The floodplains in the north are something at least and I think it's possible to beat an AI 2nd city on emperor.

Teching Agi, will probably go Hunting, then BW next, not sure if need urgent AH

Why hunting? Chopping is quite a lot better imo than the ability to improve ivories.

 

[coanda]

That's India. India is pink; Rome is a dark purple. The territory in the fog is much too light to be Rome. Means your nearest neighbor (assuming there isn't anyone ridiculously close to the west) is either Gandhi or Asoka.

Asoka is a moderately pacifist AI, trades pretty freely, builds very few units, seldom plots wars, and is generally a fairly relaxing neighbor. If he gets attacked early he can end up as roadkill, but if left in peace tends to do fairly well (ORG leaders tend to be a little better than average, and my theory is just that they're "wasting" fewer hammers when the AI decides it just has to build that courthouse which will save a grand total of 1 gold per turn - AIs love to do that, and it slows them down). He's a common one to get one of the early religions, and if he can spread that religion to some neighbors, build up nice happy relations with them all, and use that to let him play his preferred pacifist game, he's one of the AIs who often can end up topping the charts by mid/late-game. Techs well, trades with a lot of people. Conversely, if he gets attacked before he reaches that point he'll fold like a deck of cards because he just doesn't have enough units.

Gandhi is stylistically similar to Asoka, except he's even more obsessed with the pacifist builder game. Makes almost no units, and warmongers hate him (warmonger AIs have a hidden under-the-hood dislike for pacifist AIs which makes them more likely targets). Literally one warmonger on any of his borders and he's probably going to die, but in the right start he's a late-game threat. He also has a bit more of an emphasis on cultural buildings, so where Asoka not infrequently ends up a tech leader threatening space, Gandhi is a little more likely to end up threatening a cultural victory (which is a little easier for the human to handle - less technologically advanced makes war easier, and you can pick any of his legendary cities to sack instead of needing to get the capital).

The spots you marked are potential city sites, but there's not enough information yet to really make decisions. India's capital is close enough that an axe or chariot rush isn't off the table. Or horse archers, or elepults with your ivory; a lot is going to depend on what you find as you keep scouting. You'd really like to get another food resource with your second city if you find one, and you might also prefer a place with a lot of choppable forests if you're thinking a 2- or 3-city rush. Regardless, you've got another 20+ turns before the decision on second city site needs to be finalized.

 

[crashmon]

Land is going to be at a Premium this map, so India is great news, rushing him probably has to be the play... Now we have to hope we have Bronze or Horse. Looks like tech path is going to be BW then AH then, to see if we have horses.....

 

[krikav]

With ivory/CHA the desert gold is an even more despicable tile than it usually is.
BW before hunting, sure the riverside ivory beats any mine you can do, but farming corn ->mining pig gets you a long way to reach BW, and if there is spare worker turns you can build a mine too.
Starting to chop earlier instead of making camps is good, so even though the camps are good, getting BW earlier is likely better.

I'm starting to think that second worker could be better than early settler here, no obvious stellar second city spot and alot of stuff to do for workers.
If thats Gandhi, axerush is for sure an option too!

 

[Nick723]

Probably a size 2 settler / worker is in order. Which will be a subject of some debate I’m sure.

If growing on a warrior and stopping at size 2, you can do a bit of micro to ensure that you get the warrior out same turn you grow. If my calculations are right you need to work the pig for three turns (whilst the corn is being farmed) (and then the corn for the rest). This gives you another explorer / fog buster whilst not slowing down the settler / worker

 

[sampsa]

Probably a size 2 settler / worker is in order. Which will be a subject of some debate I’m sure.

This is what I'd intuitively do for sure. Two good tiles, extra hammer cc is nearly always a size 2 settler for me. I'm not a massive fan of worker-worker, though I've underestimated that line in the past. The lower the difficulty level, the more incentivized you are to settle 2nd city asap for two reasons: less maintenance and less barb issues.

I think the ph in NW is a decent spot even without a -resource, plenty of fps, connected for +2 and +1 cc. It's possible to find a connected spot with a -resource in the west or even in the east.

 

[coanda]

This early in the game there's really a limit to how much long-term planning can be done. Can say for sure that you're going to want to build the worker, farm the corn, mine the pig, grow to size-2 building warrior, tech agriculture into bronze working, bump up against India's lands as your warrior passes by in case there's a chance for a worker steal but generally keep moving towards the west for more scouting. That'd get out to around turn-20 before you need to decide what to build after size-2. Particularly if you manage a worker-steal passing by India (or if you see something that lets you think there's a good chance camping your second warrior out up there will give a worker steal soon), settler at size-2 would be the play. You could go either way between settler or worker at size-2 if you think the free worker is unlikely; I'd lean towards settler.

Good advice from Nick723 about juggling city tiles as you build the warrior; you should be able to hit size-2 the same turn that your warrior finishes, avoiding any wasted hammers or food.

 

[sampsa]

avoiding any wasted hammers or food.

Just to be clear for OP: wasted not as in thrown away, but wasted as in stored without immediate benefit.

 

[crashmon]

Lots of work type issues right now, not sure if will get to next few turns today

 

[Fippy]

Size 2 settler calculation can be done quickly, 5x3 from unimproved corn.
Then +5 each turn, size 3 needs 56 ..landing at 55 means 5 turns spent on size 2 if not going for the quick settler.
Not really good, lack of another 3 unimproved tile usually means size 2 settler works better.
Growing London looks better on a granary or with AH.

 

[crashmon]

Turn 8, met Asoka

• explored up to India boundaries, now moving west on circle around cap
• Asoka met somebody else before us

Spoiler Map :

Question 1, What do we research next :- I am thinking BW
Question 2, Lots of Flood plains up near Indian Border, and can share Ivory, thinking next city has to be 3N1W of cap (as when we take out Asoka, we can then share pigs with that city)
Question 3, if we find Bronze, do we rush Asoka with axes. He is very close


Idea's thoughts as usual

 

[Chase_2_Rabbits]

1. I'd go BW next. Timing should work well to be able to start chopping into the settler after farming the corn and mining the pigs.
2. If we're going to settle at Asoka, I think I prefer the PH 3N2W to 3N1W, even if that does potentially miss a FP. We don't really have a genuinely good 2nd city site yet, though. I wouldn't make a decision until I've explored a bit more.
3. Maybe. If he beats us to the FP city between the two capitals and we have copper then it's hard to resist. Elephants give us options. If we find enough food and space for four decent cities then we can probably build the Pyramids and then take Asoka's land from him with ele-pults. An axe-rush will relegate the Mids to an afterthought.

 

[coanda]

Honestly, there's not a lot of new decisions or fancy tricks to be discussed before the city hits size-2 here. Tech BW. Worker - warrior, farm corn, mine pig, juggle tiles to finish warrior same turn as the city hits size-2 (few turns working pigs, then working corn), keep looping around counter-clockwise with the warrior unless you spot an exposed worker to steal. It's good to keep thinking about where cities might go as you explore so your warrior knows when to take an extra turn or two checking an area, but you seem to be on top of that. You could play out until the warrior finishes on your next turnset, I think that'd be around 10 more turns.

 

[NightOnEarth]

As Churchill you could ally with Asoka for a Commonwealth.

Honestly, it appears that the ocean is to the east and probably also to the south (tundra S of London). Probably, there are no competitors in these directions and you are the most SE civilization in your game. Asoka is shielding you to the north. For my limited experience (I am an aspiring player at emperor level) that means:
a) you are competing with Asoka for the FP area N of London and should settle this area first. Ideally by this you would seal the area to your east and south, too, for further expansion. As already mentioned by sampsa, London and a northern city would be connected by a river.
b) the general direction for early land grabbing should be west to block the civ that should be located there. Preferably the river would connect London with a city west of it.

Of course my considerations are obsolete, if the landmass extends further to the SE.

 

[sampsa]

BW next tech.

Lots of Flood plains up near Indian Border, and can share Ivory, thinking next city has to be 3N1W of cap

I think 3N2W is clearly better. Go for the extra when possible!

I think 3E of capital is not a great city, no food as sharing only mined pigs. If I had to settle two cities with this info they would be 3N2W and 3N2E. Not optimal, but floodplains are good.

 

[krikav]

3N2W is almost certainly better.

3N1W has some minor advantages, one is that it likely can be settled one turn sooner, the other is that it can help mature one more grassland capital cottage, and lastly that it might have another floodplain.

But these considerations are not enough to forfeit a city center hammer, and those mystery tiles imho.

 

[jnebbe]

Whats the reasoning behind 3N2W? Claims only FPs for food, both of which will be lost once asoka's borders pop again, and an elephant tile. Granted I don't really know how culture wars work and maybe tiles to the west make it a better spot,.
I'd much rather try to share the corn somehow, if the 2nd city works corn capital still has some 4-yield elephants to work.

 

[sampsa]

Whats the reasoning behind 3N2W? Claims only FPs for food, both of which will be lost once asoka's borders pop again, and an elephant tile. Granted I don't really know how culture wars work and maybe tiles to the west make it a better spot,.
I'd much rather try to share the corn somehow, if the 2nd city works corn capital still has some 4-yield elephants to work.

There are 4 fps on the first ring and I think Asoka's border pop will take two of them. London's border pop will claim one extra. So there will be three fps even after T50. It's not that it's such a great spot, but it's probably the best location so far discovered. Locations that share the corn are unconnected, so loss of 2 per turn.

 

[krikav]

One could argue that a city to the west that shares corn/pigs is objectively better.
But it's also completely uncontested, where as the floodplain area is almost certain to be taken by Asoka if not taken by the player first.

Capital can right now make very good use of the surplus food it has to grow.
Abit later, once the pigs are pastured and perhaps once a granary is built, well then the benefit of having a city to juggle those two food tiles would be very great.

 

[crashmon]

Hi All, Will play next few turns later today, but I set this map to have High sea level, and we only have around 650ish land tiles (<700 I'm sure), so I think the north west settle has to be the play.. There has to be somebody North of Asoka, as he did not meet us first, so forward settling him in this instance I think is important (unless we just plan to axe rush him assuming we have copper)