[BTS] Crashmon Shadow Game 2 :- Emperor

I'd prefer the plains hill in the north west regardless. City has better defense and develops a bit faster. The desert gold is not that good a tile anyway. It would be different if you did not have gold elsewhere but you do.
 
Yeah, desert gold wouldn't change my plan. The tile itself is not strong and there is no urgent need for extra :) due to CHA+ivory. You still have some time before settling 2nd city, so still possible to find something better. Location of copper can easily alter plans.

:espionage: on Wang now? Looking at the land, I don't think Asoka will be around for that long.
 
Turn 18
  • Next turn we have 2nd warrior and grow to size 2
  • To the west we have now met Izzy, Saladin and Memhet
  • So only 1 civ left to meet, and it looks like everybody is to north and west
Spoiler Map :



  • No much out there in terms of resources we can see (possibilty of Iron or horses I guess)
  • We probably need to wait to BW, but 3N2W looks best spot right now
  • After warrior, I feel needs to be a settler
  • Probably need fB to south and to East, west probably will have all the civs
 

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Capital tile micro is off. It makes no sense to not work an improved tile. I think you should replay it to win 2:food:.
 
Good advice from Nick723 about juggling city tiles as you build the warrior; you should be able to hit size-2 the same turn that your warrior finishes, avoiding any wasted hammers or food.

Capital tile micro is off. It makes no sense to not work an improved tile. I think you should replay it to win 2:food:.

I switched it to pigs so we would be size 2 and warrior same turn as per Coanda's advice... So this is delibrate to grow and get warrior on same turn. One of the pro's and con's of shadow games, you sometimes get contradicting advice on what to do, so you try and juggle what you do to meet most of the advice, but end up sometimes getting it completely wrong...

But in this case its delibrate, not an oversite :) I did switch to pigs so I get warrior and hit size 2 at same turn as per previous advice... Is it wrong, well this is why we have this thread to discuss and deliberate on what is best play :thumbsup:
 
Pretty sure it's a misunderstanding. Can't you work the pigs earlier, when corn isn't yet improved? One of the most important "micro" for me is to always work the best tiles, meaning that once you have a 5:food:-tile available, you should never stop working it.
 
A pretty interesting game you have, and an inspiring thread, too.

With the territory recently revealed to the west, it appears to me that you are shielded from other civilizations by the nw desert. Ocean to the east, tundra to the south, Asoka to the north - this leaves only a small corridor to the west where you compete with other civs for further expansion. If Asoka will not settle NE of you the next 32 turns (assumed that you will win the race for 3N2W city), the land to the east and south is entirely yours (London border pop-up) and you're able to select the best spots for further cities. BTW, what a nice assembly of ambassadors south of the sheep. ;)

Maybe the 2nd warrior will find something interesting (copper, horses, seafood, finally iron) when exploring the east (as advised by Fippy). In addition the exploration will give you a base to plan your fogbusting. With copper (I'll keep my fingers crossed) you could think about an axeman after building a settler and a 2nd worker. This axe could serve as an insurance against barbarians if fogbusting isn't already up and running.

Interesting that Asoka lost the race for an early religion to Isabella and Saladin. This diminshes the probability of an early religion spreading to you. Good or bad? Maybe it's to early to look this direction. I'm curious who will spread her/his religion the most aggressive.
I'm quite unexperienced regarding pangea maps. Later you may want to establish trade routes to other civs, but how? Most probably there will already be a trade route to Asoka along the river passing London and from Delhi further to other civs.

If I'm not wrong you are currently distributing your spy point evenly. When you know who is your neighbour to the west, maybe you want to concentrate your spy points to this target. This was already proposed by sampsa.

I'm glad to learn that you intend to settle 3N2W of London instead of 3N3W. Otherwise you'd trade a desert and a peak for a floodplain and a forrested grassland, that could be shared with London (plus 3 additional river tiles), just for the gold, that is available east of London as well.
 
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Yeah, sampsa's right about the micro. I think it works correctly for the 7 turn warrior & growth if you work the pigs on the first turn after the worker and then switch to the corn. Not a huge deal, but deity players will tell you that marginal gains (especially early in the game) are important.

Looks like we're going 3N2W unless we choose to settle copper elsewhere for the purposes of an axe rush. The sheep to the west is too far away. The capital is not in position to share food yet and settling the stone is a negative step in terms of claiming land.
 
Yeah, the thinking was that you needed 15 hammers and 22 surplus food. Working pigs your net surplus would be 2F3H (2F1H from pigs, 2H from city tile), so 2 turns of that is 4/22, 6/15. Then 3 turns of non-farmed corn at 3F2H gets you to 13/22, 12/15. And 2 turns of farmed corn at 5F2H to finish up gets you 23/22, 16/15; on turn 19 you've got warrior, 1/24 food in granary, and 1 overflow hammer. 2 turns on pig, 3 turns on unfarmed corn, 2 turns on farmed corn (1 turn pig, 4 turns unfarmed corn, 2 turns farmed corn also works, although it'd give you 2 overflow food and 0 overflow hammers instead so not quite as good because overflow hammers are more useful here). Sorry if I was too vague in wording that and didn't get the concept across of working pigs just enough turns before the corn farm finishes.

Doing it this way isn't a huge loss in comparison - you're going to be behind by 1 hammer and 1 food from where you could have been. There's a small chance that means a production project finishes a turn later or the city grows a turn later at some point further down the line, but it's not a major problem. And given the situation you are in, working unimproved pigs this turn actually is better than working the corn; it's just also a sign that you'd have preferred to work the unimproved pigs an extra turn earlier on instead.

Some players make a map note when and where they first spot AI scouts - something like "Asoka t5" or "Saladin t13" or whatever on the spot. That helps them keep good guesses of roughly how far away and in which direction an AI likely is, although it's far from perfect of course.

A quick rundown on the AIs you've met so far (a lot of this information can be gotten from the Know Your Enemy thread in the strategy articles section)...

Mehmed is a warmonger - he builds a ton of units and attacks a lot. But unlike most warmongers, he will not target civilizations he is "Pleased" with. If he's a neighbor, you usually want to make getting to Pleased status with him a priority; him declaring war on you can ruin your whole game. In chaotic target-rich games he generally does well; if (for example) he starts on a continent where everyone becomes Buddhist, he can end up dragged down in tech rate by all his unit production/upkeep while also being Pleased with all his neighbors and getting no value out of those units.

Saladin and Isabella are fairly similar AIs. They both love founding early religions, build lots of missionaries, spread their religions aggressively, demand neighbors adopt their religion, love neighbors who will and hate neighbors who won't, are not afraid of declaring wars against people who are not in their religion. Not a surprise to see them grab Hinduism and Buddhism here. They're both fairly mediocre as AIs - not great, not terrible - but usually have an outsized impact on the diplomatic shape of the games they play in. Isabella is the less comfortable neighbor of the two because she will attack targets she is Pleased with from time to time.

Asoka we already talked about. Pacifist, low-ish unit count, generally does well if left in peace but can often get crushed early.

Wang Kon is a terrible AI. He expands pretty slowly, declares wars reasonably often but with a small unit count, wastes a lot of potential research on espionage with which he'll do silly things like poison the wells of his neighbors, and generally just makes poor life choices. The fact that he's protective can make him a pain in the neck to deal with before mid-game, and financial can help him get a slightly faster early start on teching (which he'll then fritter away over the mid-game). Generally he's just someone you try to ignore and work around until you have enough of an advantage to steamroller him. He will not start planning attacks at Pleased. In fact, of all the AIs you've met so far this game Isabella is the only backstabber.

Best guess given all the "reliable friends" AIs in this game and the fact that the two big religious zealots founded the two early religions is that you're looking at a a fairly classic two-religion split of the continent between Buddhists and Hindus; as you get a little more information about which neighbors are closer or further you can decide which bloc to commit yourself to.

Next point of discussion, what to do with the warrior who just finished. You see the pigs on India's southern border? I'd take my new capital warrior and move him onto the hill 2S of those pigs. If you see the pigs already pastured then the opportunity is lost. But there's a good chance they haven't been pastured yet, and sooner or later (probably sooner) India is going to be wanting to move a worker onto them to make a pig pasture. That'd be an easy free worker for you.

Next build. I'd go settler here. While it's true that (a) you don't have any really amazing second city sites, and (b) you do have a lot of forests you could chop, the map is fairly crowded so grabbing land earlier is a good idea. And there is the chance of getting a free worker off India, in which case 3 workers and 1 city would be overkill but 2 workers and 2 cities would be great. Worker-warrior-worker wouldn't be a crazy decision; I'd just lean towards worker-warrior-settler in this case (you're getting the worker/settler at size-2, rather than growing further first, because you don't have more really good tiles to grow onto).

There aren't any really amazing city sites that leap off the screen. With a pig mine, rather than pig pasture, your capital doesn't really have the food surplus to fuel two cities yet. And the only other food resource visible but unclaimed is sheep, which is much too far off and probably not great land anyways given the visible plains and tundra in the area. Although I would move my warrior up onto that tundra hill 1S of the sheep just to get a better look at the surroundings; if you found something silly-good like gold + wet corn there you might consider grabbing it second in spite of the distance. 3N2W of the capital looks like the place to take; plainshill city tile, strategically useful location, respectable early production and commerce. The stone to the south is a spot you'll definitely be considering later on, and there's probably something around that gold to the east worth having (although you'll need more scouting in the region to decide where - you've marked one possible spot, but stuff in fog of war could definitely change the thinking regarding that gold). If you don't decide to axe-rush Asoka and the sheep is still available when a settler is ready to make your third city, you might end up grabbing that area with it. One of the things about gold tiles is that because they give so much commerce, they can sometimes let you justify taking a city a little further away from the capital than would be a good idea normally. Barb defense, move distance and time, worker efficiency, that sort of thing is still a concern. But distance-based upkeep is thoroughly outweighed by the 8-commerce tile so you don't need to worry as much about effect on your tech rate. Of course, all this thinking could shift in 4 turns when you finish Bronze Working and find out where there is copper.
 
Turn 24
  • Mined Pigs, now move worker to a Forest / GL / River tile to start to chop settler (also to cottage later on when its cottage time)
  • Met Peter (Russia) to the North
  • Met another Saladin Scout to the east.
  • Warrior 2 is scouting east moving north then will Fog bust
  • We have copper to the south in range of the stone, Corn and silver to the west
  • Corn to the east near the Gold hill
Spoiler Maps :

East


North West


South West



  • What to tech next, am thinking the wheel for the copper hookup + Pottery, or hunting for Ivory and boost to AH
  • 2nd City spot, now we have lots of choices, the stone settle now seems more attracttive as it would have copper in BFC, but I think I still want to settle 2nd city 3N2W to block India, and maybe whip 3rd Settler for the Copper spot.
  • Good spot to the east for 4th city near corn
  • Spots to west I doubt we will get owing to high sea level
Thoughts, should I go settler => settler here ? also Hunting vs Wheel vs AH
 

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Nice!
It depends a bit on how you want to play it next. With copper there an axe attack is definitely an option if you’d like to, but also expanding a bit and going for elephants is also good.

I’m no expert at these early rushes (I don’t really enjoy them much) by I think of going for axes, next tech should be wheel and settle 1S of stone. Normally you’d attack with just two cities, so your next capital build would be another worker and then perhaps grow on a barracks until copper is hooked up.

If going for elephants, I’d settle north, west and east and attack at 4 cities, copper / stone can be ignored for now.

Of course a 3rd option is to play more peacefully and go for the pyramids. In which case settling north is probably the play to block off the most land.
 
A bit greedy with scouting, as now the warrior is a bit far from securing the NW-spot. I mean the tundra-area in the SW is rather irrelevant even with those resources, it's just far, hard to connect/protect/improve, just very clunky overall. Also, the corn in the east doesn't tempt me much. No river, so outside of the corn tiles are just weak.

I'd go for NW-ph still, not to block Asoka but because it's the best available spot! Connected, ph bonus is already +1:hammers:+2:commerce:, and on top of that a "half-improved" tile to immediately work (fp) which means the city requires zero worker turns to be productive!

At least on first thought, I'd go wheel, worker-settler. Another settler feels a bit early because you'll need a lot of worker turns to make 3rd city good. First worker should be chopping non-stop IMO. 3rd city spot is a big choice. One possibility is going for 1st ring or on top of copper -> axes. For elephant-plays I'd be looking at the corn in the east, there are stone-plays available, also 3N2E is still a decent spot that doesn't drain worker turns, which is where I'd go if settler-settler. But none of this needs to be decided now.
 
How do you tell this?
There may be other ways, but the way I know how to do this is through the espionage screen.

You can see how many points the AI are putting on you. At the start of the game, everyone has 4 points to spend. So if they are spending less than 4 points on you then they know at least one other AI.
 
You can see how many points the AI are putting on you. At the start of the game, everyone has 4 points to spend. So if they are spending less than 4 points on you then they know at least one other AI.
And if you have more :espionage:-points on them than they do, BUG shows an :espionage:-icon next to them on the scoreboard. So if you've met one AI that hasn't spent any turns in anarchy and the icon is there, he/she has always met someone else.
 
The plains hill/flood plains city is ordinarily to weak for a second city. But I don't see where else to go. The sheep/wheat river in the west is too far away. And the corn is the east is not very enticing as Sampsa says.

If there is sea food or some such at the eastern coast it would probably be the best bet.
 
The plains hill/flood plains city is ordinarily to weak for a second city. But I don't see where else to go.
Nearly always you should found the best sites first. However, for the reasons I've mentioned so many times people are getting bored, here the immediate benefit of founding that particular spot 2nd seems clearly best to me. Even if there was fish in the east, I'd found NW-spot first. This is partly due to capital 2:hammers: cc and early chopping, which guarantee a fast expansion so the difference of founding dates between 2nd and 3rd city is not big.
 
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