Crazed new units

[Tielby]

I did a search of the forums but didn't find anything about this. In the last 5 or 10 turns, all or nearly all of my new units (arquebuses and boarding parties) have started Crazed and Enraged. They were all produced by the same city, if that sheds any light.

Why is this happening? Makes displacement of new forces rather impossible.

 

[popejubal]

Do you have the Tower of Complacency or Asylum from Octopus Overlords in the city? I know that Asylum makes units crazed, but I don't recall if Tower of Complacency does as well.

 

[Darksaber1]

Or do you have several Choas Mana? Crazed is one of the most common side effects of the Mutation effect that can be applied by Chaos mana.

 

[Rystic]

Mutation doesn't apply Crazed anymore. It's probably an Asylum.

 

[Darksaber1]

Dosn't It? Hmmm. Oh yeah, I think that was changed to make one of the scenarios easier.

 

[Tielby]

I do have an asylum (not the Tower of Complacency). Is there a CHANCE of Crazed or is it 100%? If the former, what is the chance, approximately? Because it seems to be most, if not all, of the time.

 

[Tielby]

OK, so I've just checked the Civilopedia, which doesn't mention it, and the manual, which says there's a 10% chance. I don't think I'm THAT unlucky, so may I politely submit that the asylum is BROKEN? Could someone who understands code try to track this down, pleeeeeeeeease?

 

[Rystic]

OK, so I've just checked the Civilopedia, which doesn't mention it, and the manual, which says there's a 10% chance. I don't think I'm THAT unlucky, so may I politely submit that the asylum is BROKEN? Could someone who understands code try to track this down, pleeeeeeeeease?

It's 10%. You're getting unlucky.

Probability in Civilization is a harsh mistress. Ever notice how you could lose two 90% battles and win a 35% on the same turn? It's not just you. There's a reason is an icon.

 

[·Imhotep·]

Though one has to say that the Enraged promotion renders Octopus Overlords kind of useless. Either you don't build an Asylum, or you put up with units that go their own ways - which is not really cool if you are in war. In former versions of FfH you could stop the effects from the Enraged promotion (which was turning the unit to Barbarian control) by casting Loyalty, but this no longer works...

There is no longer any reason to go OO - Saverous and Hemah are not the best Heros out there, and as powerful as Tsunami is, it works only in special cases. I'd rather go Ashen Veil then and have top Heroes and great Priests without the negative side effects. The religions are not very well balanced as of now...

 

[Rystic]

Though one has to say that the Enraged promotion renders Octopus Overlords kind of useless. Either you don't build an Asylum, or you put up with units that go their own ways - which is not really cool if you are in war. In former versions of FfH you could stop the effects from the Enraged promotion (which was turning the unit to Barbarian control) by casting Loyalty, but this no longer works...

There is no longer any reason to go OO - Saverous and Hemah are not the best Heros out there, and as powerful as Tsunami is, it works only in special cases. I'd rather go Ashen Veil then and have top Heroes and great Priests without the negative side effects. The religions are not very well balanced as of now...

That's not true. Stygian Guards are probably the best late-game religious unit.

 

[popejubal]

Though one has to say that the Enraged promotion renders Octopus Overlords kind of useless. Either you don't build an Asylum, or you put up with units that go their own ways - which is not really cool if you are in war. In former versions of FfH you could stop the effects from the Enraged promotion (which was turning the unit to Barbarian control) by casting Loyalty, but this no longer works...

There is no longer any reason to go OO - Saverous and Hemah are not the best Heros out there, and as powerful as Tsunami is, it works only in special cases. I'd rather go Ashen Veil then and have top Heroes and great Priests without the negative side effects. The religions are not very well balanced as of now...

I strongly disagree with your assertion that Hemah is not one of the best Heroes. He's a Channeling III adept. That means he can get Mind III. That alone makes him one of the best heroes.

To my mind, the best religious Heroes are (in descending order of Awesomeness) Gibbon Goeta, Hemah, Valin/Rosier (tie), Chalid, everyone else.

Sphener is amazing. Chalid is amazing. They also come late enough that you have other amazing tricks you can use. I'd rather get a hero that will make a significant difference early(ish) in the game so that I can take an extra neighboring empire and get to that end game power earlier.

Hemah and Gibbon Goeta might not seem as powerful as Chalid/Sphener, but they do more for my game just because of Mind III.

 

[cabbagemeister]

Arcane Lore isn't actually that cheap--I don't have the tech tree in front of me, but I don't think getting Hemah is THAT much faster than getting Religious Law and Chalid.

I don't think using Hemah for Domination is the best way to do it. 1) Domination is a pain when you're not Arcane because of the propensity to lose the promotion without being able to take it again very quickly. 2) Domination isn't boosted by Twincast, which is the major advantage of the arcane heroes.

In my opinion, Hemah is a devastating hero when he takes Twincast, WaterIII, and you build the Tower of Elements--he gets up to 14 Summoned attackers per turn. If you're Keelyn, that number quadruples (or octuples? not sure).

 

[Darksaber1]

Hemah was stronger when he summoned 2 or 3 fireballs, but he is still powerful, since only heroes can get twincast. Hastur's razor is also good, since it inflicts damage in enemy units and heals Hemah's stack.

 

[popejubal]

Arcane Lore isn't actually that cheap--I don't have the tech tree in front of me, but I don't think getting Hemah is THAT much faster than getting Religious Law and Chalid.

I don't think using Hemah for Domination is the best way to do it. 1) Domination is a pain when you're not Arcane because of the propensity to lose the promotion without being able to take it again very quickly. 2) Domination isn't boosted by Twincast, which is the major advantage of the arcane heroes.

In my opinion, Hemah is a devastating hero when he takes Twincast, WaterIII, and you build the Tower of Elements--he gets up to 14 Summoned attackers per turn. If you're Keelyn, that number quadruples (or octuples? not sure).

I absolutely agree with the insanity that comes from Twincast/Water III/Tower of Elephants (should get +100% production bonus for controlling Dragon Bones and/or Ivory).

Arcane Lore is generally pretty cheap for me because it just costs a pair of Great Scientists and I tend to get a lot of those. The funny thing is that Sorcery takes me longer than Arcane Lore because I have to research it the "hard" way.

The thing that I like best about Domination is that it increases my forces at the same time that it decreases my opponent's forces. I often don't have any other way to take over cities that are guarded by Longbows and I never seem to research Bowyers myself. Now I have an outstanding city garrison and I take the city in about 1/4 of the time I would have without Hemah.

I've sometimes researched beginning economic techs, Runes of Killmorph and Arete to get some decent defenders and Iron from the Mines of Galdur. I'll then switch to Octopus Overlords as soon as I have Arcane Lore and Hemah lets me take my first neighbor. It's not Hippus-rush fast, but it doesn't take all that long either.

economic/production/food techs -> Code of Laws (Aristocracy) -> Runes of Killmorph ->Arete

I then have two paths that work equally well
-> KotE (start building Adepts) -> Hemah -> consume 1-2 neighbors
or
Trade ->KotE -> Deception -> Gibbon Goeta -> consume 1-2 neighbors

follow up with Tower of Divination to grab a monster tech like Strength of Will or Guilds. I skip the Melee line entirely and grab Bronze Working when it's convenient (trade for it or research after Religious Arcane hero).

The biggest benefit of Mind III for me is getting those Chariots/Champions/Longbows that I cant build on my own since I skipped so many key techs - that arent key for me.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

I personally think that an Asylum should have a higher chance of giving Crazed, but that it should also remove Enraged from units in the city. Once you let the loons out then they will be all but impossible to stop, but while they are under close supervision they can be counted upon to stay in place and be used a human shields defend their homeland.

 

[Azhral]

The Avatar of Wrath hasn't shown up has he? He makes basically the whole world get Enraged

 

[Tielby]

No, the AC is comfortably below 20. (Not that I don't enjoy a good hell landscape. )

 

[xalien]

In my opinion, Hemah is a devastating hero when he takes Twincast, WaterIII, and you build the Tower of Elements--he gets up to 14 Summoned attackers per turn. If you're Keelyn, that number quadruples (or octuples? not sure).

Hmm, could someone explain for me this in a bit more detail? Looks like there's something about the game I still don't know about. Thank you.

 

[Diamondeye]

Hmm, could someone explain for me this in a bit more detail? Looks like there's something about the game I still don't know about. Thank you.

Twincast makes Hemah summon two Water elementals instead of one.
Water elementals split into two (arguably weaker) water elementals when they die.
Summoning trait makes summons last three turns instead of one, making it possible to have 6 large water ele's/12 'split once' water ele's/ 24 'split twice' water ele's, afaik.

EDIT: The Tower adds +1 strength to the elementals, iirc.

 

[cabbagemeister]

Twincast makes Hemah summon two Water elementals instead of one.
Water elementals split into two (arguably weaker) water elementals when they die.
Summoning trait makes summons last three turns instead of one, making it possible to have 6 large water ele's/12 'split once' water ele's/ 24 'split twice' water ele's, afaik.

EDIT: The Tower adds +1 strength to the elementals, iirc.

Well, Summoner now only gives 2 turns instead of 3. But the real kicker is the Tower. Normal Water elementals split when they die into two Weak elementals, and then if those die nothing happens. But Strong Water elementals (which you only get from the Tower of Elements) split into normal elementals when they die, which can then split AGAIN. Twincast also doubles everything.

So with the Tower, a properly promoted Hemah would summon two Strong elementals, which would attack and die, giving four normal elementals, which attack and die, giving eight Weak elementals. 2+4+8 = 14 attacks.

Summoner doubles things again. If you let Hemah summon two Strong elementals, wait a turn, and let him summon two more, then you could have as many as 4+8+16 = 28 attacks.

If you're Keelyn, things get silly, because puppets multiply the effect of Summoner by a factor of 4. Hemah summons two puppets, which each have twincast. Everyone waits a turn (the puppets don't die because of summoner). Next turn Hemah summons two more puppets, giving a total of four puppets. Each puppet summons two Strong Water elementals, giving 8 elementals summoned this turn. Everyone waits one more turn. Two puppets die, and Hemah summons two more to replace them, giving a total of four puppets again, who summon eight more Water elementals. So there are a total of 16 Water elementals (8 this turn + 8 last turn) which can attack this turn. Assuming they all attack and die (16 attacks), and all the normal ones attack and die (32 attacks), and all the Weak ones attack (64 attacks), that gives you 108 attackers produced just from Hemah, given a 2-turn build up. I think that would be enough to crack just about any city.