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Crises Eras

I disagree, the idea of crises is bad by itself. Empire building games are focused on progress and it's natural to only face challenges coming from either exploration or other empires. Crises feel artificial in all Civ games, in Stellaris and all other more or less similar games I've seen. Crises don't fix snowballing, only increase it and overall don't have a clear gameplay goal. They are just source of frustration coming from the desire of making more "realistic" game.
I do think it's possible to include crises and make them work. Right now I dislike almost everything about them. However, if they were less predictable, as in they don't just happen when you get to a certain level of progress, and they felt like a world impacting event that was affecting the way all players had to play... well I would be totally ok with that. It might make the overall narrative of each game feel different and might mean that you don't just feel like you are on a game on rails.

I think it's connected to the overall design decision to include eras however, it removes the feeling of immersion and variability, and actively becomes more like 'a game'. You don't get to start a game and feel like it could go in any direction. Instead you have a series of predictable steps that are going to occur and that is not immersive.
 
I do think it's possible to include crises and make them work. Right now I dislike almost everything about them. However, if they were less predictable, as in they don't just happen when you get to a certain level of progress, and they felt like a world impacting event that was affecting the way all players had to play... well I would be totally ok with that. It might make the overall narrative of each game feel different and might mean that you don't just feel like you are on a game on rails.

I think it's connected to the overall design decision to include eras however, it removes the feeling of immersion and variability, and actively becomes more like 'a game'. You don't get to start a game and feel like it could go in any direction. Instead you have a series of predictable steps that are going to occur and that is not immersive.
Unpredictability is a problem for strategic game, because strategy involves planning. Sure, part of the strategy is about preparing for various possibilities, but at some point more randomness leads to much less strategy. Currently, Civ7 crises have some acceptable level of predictability. For example, you could hold the number of settlements at the limit to see whether the crisis is about happiness. Further randomness would scrape even those things.
 
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Unpredictability is a problem for strategic game, because strategy involves planning. Sure, part of the strategy is about preparing for various possibilities, but at some point more randomness leads to much less strategy. Currently, Civ7 crises have some acceptable level of predictability. For example, you could hold the number of settlements at the limit to see whether the crisis is about happiness. Further randomness would scrape even those things.
Agree it's a problem for them, but the lack of reactivity in decision making right now is part of the issue with the game. I rarely 'react' to events in the game, instead you just plod along knowing you need to do things in a certain order in order to win. If the game was much more unpredictable, then you have to make genuine decisions and think on the fly. The game is far too structured and on rails right now for my liking. Crises are part of that problem.
 
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Agree it's a problem for them, but the lack of reactivity in decision making right now is part of the issue with the game. I rarely 'react' to events in the game, instead you just plod along knowing you need to do things in a certain order in order to win. If the game was much more unpredictable, then you have to make genuine decisions and think on the fly. The game is far too structured and on rails right now for my liking. Crises are part of that problem.
Yes, crises and natural disasters are both really bad and, in my view, they are bad as a concert. But, for some reason, Ed likes them.
 
I would put in the "Ouroborus" giant snake that eat or sink every ship that tries to cross the equator, and other mythical creatures like the "Thunderbird" which throws lightning from its beak, as guardians of distant lands... then introduce "Heroes" as in Civ 6, and this time they have to fight these Mythical creatures if they want to travel to these distant lands.
Only when a hero returns from one of these "missions" alive... then the Era could end... this is for the Antiquity to bronze Age...

later crisis and Era changes - bottlenecks I have not much interest indeed...

Bronze Age collapse could be a giant war or a giant world wide flood... or both...

From Iron Age forward crisis and Era collapses had been lived very differently from every civs stand point untill the so called "discovery" of the Americas...
The distant civs "regrouping" triggered viruses and illness of various kind that wiped out entire civs... like the Missisipian, the Amazonian, etc...
Rome was 50.000 people in 1500 whilst Peking was more than 1 million souls... The crisis and Era change happened only on papers...
to be more exact navigational maps... So for a gameplay mechanic, similarly to the Ancient Age Heroes mission, the next Age could be just that
of the 1500... triggered by the first civ to actually being able to build a robust enough ship that could cross safely the Ocean and make it to the other side...
In Italy, it's the Chinese envoys with the Zhang He reports that purposely triggered the "Renaissance".

Italian "Renaissance" was made possible because of the texts of science and engeneering the Chinese sold the the Medici family... which passed them to Leonardo Da Vinci...
If anyone played the original AC trilogy should have a broader "sketch" of that world...

Those Chinese ships were full of scientists and engineers, and brought civilization to all parts of the world, before returning home, and being burned to the ground...
With the Entirety of the Pacific coast of China, around Shangai, for 2000 miles and 20 miles inland, where there were the giant dockyards and sea towns,
completely burned to the ground from the new Emperor of China. Zhang He was a Hero and got dismissed from service ( He was a Eunuch and personal servant of the Emperor court )
by the Mandarin cast that drove the "revolution" and closed China borders from the outside world for whatever reason very few people knows why...

There is no need in my view to "reset" all civs after contact... trading techs should be allowed like the old days and the game should fix the imbalances itself...
And that's it.

The Last Era would be the post WWII Era, or Modern Age, with the split of the Atom and the race to colonize Mars as the next and final victory condition...
In all Four main Ages, and three "crises" or Main Era change is the best path possible, that wouldn't crush players development too much and leave them
enough room to breath.

Ancient Age
Ancient > Bronze
Bronze > 1500
1500 > Modern
 
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I disagree, the idea of crises is bad by itself. Empire building games are focused on progress and it's natural to only face challenges coming from either exploration or other empires. Crises feel artificial in all Civ games, in Stellaris and all other more or less similar games I've seen. Crises don't fix snowballing, only increase it and overall don't have a clear gameplay goal. They are just source of frustration coming from the desire of making more "realistic" game.
Crisis don't innately fix snowballing. However, they are the perfect place where anti-snowball doesn't seem unrealistic.
The biggest happiness penalties come to the largest empires
The most barbarians come to to most wondrous empires (or the ones that are over extended)
The most plague comes to the richest traders (whether external or internal connections)

And this can be woven into the mechanics in an emergent way or just put in directly (ie look at some player "score", bigger = more/higher penalties for that player from the Crisis)

And it can also incorporate difficulty level. Because giving AI bonuses doesn't work well (the AI doesn't know what to do with them). a higher difficulty level meaning Stronger Crisis for the player and weaker ones for the AI* .. might mean you actually need to "stand the test of time" without the crushing struggle being constant.

*If they wanted to keep a "non Crisis" option, then just triple AI bonuses/penalties for that period. (on easy levels you are the crisis, on hard levels the AI will crush you.. on "standard" there is no Crisis)
Or just double the AI bonus/penalties for the whole time

Essentially a Crisis is a time period where the Difficulty level of the game is harder... it is harder to build and keep what you have built. But having that be a period instead of the whole time means there is a time to build, and a time to preserve what you built (although both are done at both times.)
 
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Essentially a Crisis is a time period where the Difficulty level of the game is harder... it is harder to build and keep what you have built. But having that be a period instead of the whole time means there is a time to build, and a time to preserve what you built (although both are done at both times.)

Yes, like when in boubble boubble you've taken too much time to finish the level and the ghosts starts chasing you...
The trigger here should be the missing tech that could allow your civ to build a certain building or a new government reform...
And on the opposite spectrum ( or both, joined together ) one of a set of "missions" that if not completed, within a certain amount of turns... it would literally
"freeze" the passing of time... like..

you reach say 1750 BC... and Hercules or the Twin Mayan Brothers, Saladin, The golden monkey... (wukong?) has to complete their mission.
Untill then the time stops. You have no more tech that can be studied, you can still wage war, etc etc. But time is stopped, and the crisis only intensifies...
like an apocalypse... with Natural disaster and the whole set of destructive stuff...

I agree in the "Hard difficulty" and the "normal" difficulty some stuff could be watered down a bit... but it's the bottleneck that counts...
I don't like the "The Age End" like... what happened here???
Let it be an actual nightmare to get out of the crisis and end an Age...

Freeze the time

Stop the Sun

Turn all waters red


An Age End with a crisis of truly <biblical><sneaky-dragon> proportions...
 
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Crisis don't innately fix snowballing. However, they are the perfect place where anti-snowball doesn't seem unrealistic.
The biggest happiness penalties come to the largest empires
The most barbarians come to to most wondrous empires (or the ones that are over extended)
The most plague comes to the richest traders (whether external or internal connections)
And richest traders have best chances against happiness, warmongers are very effective against barbarians and plague could mostly be ignored.

Crises are not anti-snowballing, they are slapped on top of normal anti-snowballing mechanics. Happiness crisis works, because there's settlement limit mechanics and it would be much better if it would be tuned to work without happiness crisis. And other antiquity crises don't have even that.
 
Speaking in game terms, the key points to me of a crisis are that they have to matter for you, but you have to have a way to "defeat" them. Like I don't want a plague that just wipes out 1/3 of my empire and there's nothing I can do about it. But they should be punishing enough if you don't fight it. I think for balance, they should also hit the leaders more than those trailing. It's hard to do, because usually anything you have that counters an action, someone in better position is also better equipped to fight it off. Like if I'm running away in gold, buying plague doctors is really easy. Or one game where I was in great spot in the crisis, I had the barbarian invasion and I was just overflowing in troops that I just used the new barbarian camps to farm XP and it cost me nothing.

I do think that they eased off some of the crisis damages, probably the same reason why they eased off the dark ages in civ 6. Even if you leave the current mode as the default, having a "Dramatic Crisis Mode" where you can really get hit hard might give some people more of a challenge. Or you just do extra scaling to the difficulty level, so people at deity just get hit hard. I guess if the barbarian invasion troops had like +15 combat strength against Deity players, that would at least take some concentration in fighting them off...
The problem with any 'plague' mechanic is that prior to Venice's invention of 'Quarantine' around 1600 CE and Pasteur's Germ Theory of the late 19th century, there wasn't much you could do about Endemic Disease except bury the dead quickly and pray.

That means any in-game such mechanic has to be 'nerfed' or tweaked. Getting hit by two pandemics that each remove 1/4 to 1/3 of the population within a century is, in practical terms, Game Ending - as it largely was for the western Roman Empire.

But only 'largely'. There were other systemic problems with the Roman polity already, in their tax system and individualized loyalties that made generals unreliable and kept the Imperium up for grabs every time an Emperor stumbled. Doing anything about depopulation when the government is almost constantly unstable makes for a poor set of response to the Crisis and a very Unfun game.

But, the entire Crisis period can be made gameable as well as Serious. Any Crisis is not just a single event. It is made worse or less so by the existing structure (Government, Civics) of the Civ affected, in its neighbors, and in the specific actions taken in response to it. - Which, in turn, may precipitate another Crisis just down the road that is worse or completely different.

Given that Human players will inevitably game the gameable, Crisis periods will have to be balanced both between what the AI is capable of and human players are as well as between being serious enough to Force a transition to a new Civ and being so traumatic the gamer rage-quits every time.

And that last may be most important, because it addresses what I think is the great problem with the Age transitions now: gamers want to play one Civ forever as they are used to in previous Civs - the Egotistic Fantasy that a Great Leader can take a people from 4000 BCE to 2000 CE somehow, in the face of all historical evidence to the contrary. The Crisis periods should make it abundantly clear that that concept is largely a Fantasy, but that the alternative is equally playable.

That means not only a Crisis that gradually overwhelms, but also a direct connection between what you do about the Crisis and what you wind up with: to go from playing Rome to Mongolia should require more than 3 catapults or 3 horse resources, but some major changes to Rome's Civics and Government representing a wholesale transformation of its society from an urbanized agriculture and trade-based Central State to a semi-tribal pastoral society with a much smaller concentration of population (for which, possibly Cue The Plagues?)

All of which will take a lot more work than merely 'tweaking' the existing Crisis periods.
 
I would put in the "Ouroborus" giant snake that eat or sink every ship that tries to cross the equator, and other mythical creatures like the "Thunderbird" which throws lightning from its beak, as guardians of distant lands... then introduce "Heroes" as in Civ 6, and this time they have to fight these Mythical creatures if they want to travel to these distant lands.
Only when a hero returns from one of these "missions" alive... then the Era could end... this is for the Antiquity to bronze Age...

later crisis and Era changes - bottlenecks I have not much interest indeed...

Bronze Age collapse could be a giant war or a giant world wide flood... or both...

From Iron Age forward crisis and Era collapses had been lived very differently from every civs stand point untill the so called "discovery" of the Americas...
The distant civs "regrouping" triggered viruses and illness of various kind that wiped out entire civs... like the Missisipian, the Amazonian, etc...
Rome was 50.000 people in 1500 whilst Peking was more than 1 million souls... The crisis and Era change happened only on papers...
to be more exact navigational maps... So for a gameplay mechanic, similarly to the Ancient Age Heroes mission, the next Age could be just that
of the 1500... triggered by the first civ to actually being able to build a robust enough ship that could cross safely the Ocean and make it to the other side...
In Italy, it's the Chinese envoys with the Zhang He reports that purposely triggered the "Renaissance".

Italian "Renaissance" was made possible because of the texts of science and engeneering the Chinese sold the the Medici family... which passed them to Leonardo Da Vinci...
If anyone played the original AC trilogy should have a broader "sketch" of that world...

Those Chinese ships were full of scientists and engineers, and brought civilization to all parts of the world, before returning home, and being burned to the ground...
With the Entirety of the Pacific coast of China, around Shangai, for 2000 miles and 20 miles inland, where there were the giant dockyards and sea towns,
completely burned to the ground from the new Emperor of China. Zhang He was a Hero and got dismissed from service ( He was a Eunuch and personal servant of the Emperor court )
by the Mandarin cast that drove the "revolution" and closed China borders from the outside world for whatever reason very few people knows why...

There is no need in my view to "reset" all civs after contact... trading techs should be allowed like the old days and the game should fix the imbalances itself...
And that's it.

The Last Era would be the post WWII Era, or Modern Age, with the split of the Atom and the race to colonize Mars as the next and final victory condition...
In all Four main Ages, and three "crises" or Main Era change is the best path possible, that wouldn't crush players development too much and leave them
enough room to breath.

Ancient Age
Ancient > Bronze
Bronze > 1500
1500 > Modern

I would love these mythical things as a scenario or a mod, but not in the base game. I don't think civ needs to follow real world history like some apparently do. I consider it an alternate universe, but not one that includes fantastical creatures and magic etc. I don't like Bermuda Triangle for this reason.

As a scenario or mod, bring it on. Let's give the Aztecs Quetzalcoatl the Shawnee Thunderbird and fight it out. Could be awesome.
 
I find the crises annoying so I turn them off entirely. If I were forced to go through whole crisis eras, I'd quit. I do not play Civ to watch my civilization crumble.
 
W
And richest traders have best chances against happiness, warmongers are very effective against barbarians and plague could mostly be ignored.

Crises are not anti-snowballing, they are slapped on top of normal anti-snowballing mechanics. Happiness crisis works, because there's settlement limit mechanics and it would be much better if it would be tuned to work without happiness crisis. And other antiquity crises don't have even that.
Which is why the crises as they are are not tuned for the job. There should be multiple crisis happening and they should be tuned to actually take the strongest players down a peg.

Right now happiness is the only one that does that.

I think Crises done well can
1. provide an anti-snowball (best if explicit)
2. provide a feeling of why you will end up with a whole new set of uniques* in the next age
3. Provide difficulty that doesn’t require AI to behave in an unfun way OR have a constant grind

*Whether or not the name of your civ/empire changes should be 100% up to the player with no gameplay requirements. However, forcing you to pick a new set of uniques based on gameplay the previous ages makes sense.
 
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W

Which is why the crises as they are are not tuned for the job. There should be multiple crisis happening and they should be tuned to actually take the strongest players down a peg.

Right now happiness is the only one that does that
And Happiness does not do it regularly. It is absurdly easy to keep Happiness positive throughout the Crisis period, and I have had many games where going into the Antiquity Crisis period every Civ in t he game, human and AI, were showing +50 Happiness or better and would have had to work very hard to have anything resembling a Happiness 'Crisis'.

-Which means that 'preparing' for a Crisis is not at the moment a function of human players, it is pretty sipe for AI players as well, which makes the Crisis entirely irrelevant to the game,
 
And Happiness does not do it regularly. It is absurdly easy to keep Happiness positive throughout the Crisis period, and I have had many games where going into the Antiquity Crisis period every Civ in t he game, human and AI, were showing +50 Happiness or better and would have had to work very hard to have anything resembling a Happiness 'Crisis'.

-Which means that 'preparing' for a Crisis is not at the moment a function of human players, it is pretty sipe for AI players as well, which makes the Crisis entirely irrelevant to the game,

In my current game I'm in the exploration happiness crisis. I'm seven settlements over the limit. Just barely I've been able to hold onto them all because of my robust trade. That shouldn't be possible. I should have been punished for warring most of the age instead of focusing on culture to get settlement limit upgrades.
 
The crises should be moved to 2 mini eras. (I think I’ve read singing similar on this forum, but not as comprehensive.) I don’t know what to name the crisis ages to make them more universal sounding but they’d correspond to the early Middle Ages and the Age of Enlightenment.

Within those two eras all the crises for that transition are happening simultaneously at varying severity. The player could choose whether to switch to their next civ at the beginning or the end of these eras. This gives them a little more control of the narrative. Maybe there could be goals that let them preserve their civs fully into the next age with extra legacies instead of switching?

Also there would be a small amount of technologies and civics to research. And the tier one units for the exploration and modern eras would be unlocked that way giving the player more time with them.

In the case of the first crisis/early middle age, the world religions are founded, (but not by the player) based on which civs are in the game. The players would then try to grab control of them going into exploration.

What do people think?
I think this thought is at least worth pursuing, but I also think it moves us a bit towards the golden/dark-ages mechanism of Civ6 except now we have common dark age for all civs in medieval (era 2) and ... what would the "dark" era 4 even be? I'm not saying it's inherently bad, but I think one would need to consider what it adds that's better than the current system. But if it can smooth the transitions between the "normal" eras, I reckon that's good.

From a theoretical point of view at least, I support the idea of a crisis system, because it:
  • can be adjusted depending on player success - players that have done better would be hit harder by the crisis, thus giving a mechanism to level the field
  • offers a means to shake-up the narrative of the game, so players can't just have games of, say, peace from beginning to end, and
  • can add an element of randomness that increases replayability of the game.
Now I have not played Civ7, so I will not make myself the judge of whether the current system accomplishes this (from what I've read, the answer seems to be no, but like I said ...), but I think the idea has enough potential to deserve being fleshed more out than the current implementation.
 
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