Cristo Redentor, spies and forcing civics

[lobster]

Wow, isn't CR overpowered? I'm expecting it to be toned down in the next official patch.

 

[UncleJJ]

It is no more overpowered than say The Pyramids or Great Library are in the early game. It is a late game wonder it has to have an impact when there are many cities to affect. Compare it with the UN or Three Gorges or the Statue of Liberty and it doesn't seem so overpowered to me.

It does seem that some of the spy missions are too cheap when they do things like change civics. The CR seems to amplify this weakness in the game balance rather than be the problem itself. I am not sure of everything that affects the success of a spy mission or what determines its cost. Maybe the chance of success can be reduced more by the presence of own spies or by spending on EPs. Or if failed missions cost the EPs (or part of them say 50%) as well as the lost hammers for the spy then civic changes would not look so cheap and easy.

 

[MrCynical]

Cristo Redentor really isn't that overpowered, simply because of how late it appears. Wonders at that stage need a serious and immediate benefit to be worth building at all. It's worth having, but it's far from game breaking. How many times are you really going to switch civs in a modern age? What about golden ages, which are so much easier to get now as well?

 

[DrJambo]

This wonder is a little broken. It should have a 1 turn minimum between civic changes to prevent clear human-only exploits.

 

[Bast]

Cristo Redentor really isn't that overpowered, simply because of how late it appears. Wonders at that stage need a serious and immediate benefit to be worth building at all. It's worth having, but it's far from game breaking. How many times are you really going to switch civs in a modern age? What about golden ages, which are so much easier to get now as well?

It's not overpowered, it's just useful to have. I hope they won't tweak it.

If anything it's the espionage exploits that need fixing.

 

[arstal]

This will almost certainly be changed in the patch- it's just too abuseable.

 

[Spearthrower]

This will almost certainly be changed in the patch- it's just too abuseable.

I, unfortunately, agree.

Enjoy it while it lasts.... alone it is a very powerful tool.... combined with espionage, it is just overpowered....


Shame, because I love this wonder, but I see a big nerf stick looming!

 

[Colee]

I think CR is extremely powerful. Which in itself would not be a problem: there are other extremely powerful wonders as well, and after all, it's in an expansion pack, so it should make people want to buy that expansion pack, right?

BUT it opens up such possibilites for exploits that I am sure the game designers did not even consider. Keeping the whole world at barbarism while you are happily drafting, whipping and gold rushing while not suffering the drawbacks of these civics? Come on. I'm sure this is going to be the first thing they fix in the first REAL patch to BTS.

 

[Bast]

Sorry but am I the only one seeing the problem of espionage points? To do that requires a lot of effort on your part to get the spies into their cities and spend the espionage points.

I could think of better things to do? Or am I missing something?

Frankly, I think it's too cheap to influence civics and religion. It should be a lot more expensive than it is now. They should tweak that and that will shut down this exploit forever.

 

[Spearthrower]

Sorry but am I the only one seeing the problem of espionage points? To do that requires a lot of effort on your part to get the spies into their cities and spend the espionage points.

I could think of better things to do? Or am I missing something?

Frankly, I think it's too cheap to influence civics and religion. It should be a lot more expensive than it is now. They should tweak that and that will shut down this exploit forever.

Great Wall, 10% spending forever - that's enough to keep you afloat.

The Great Spies you produce... well personally I think this sucks too in implementation, but all you need do is drop it in the target city and infiltrate - instant civic swappage points for many many turns.

 

[Bast]

Great Wall, 10% spending forever - that's enough to keep you afloat.

The Great Spies you produce... well personally I think this sucks too in implementation, but all you need do is drop it in the target city and infiltrate - instant civic swappage points for many many turns.

And what if you didn't get the Great Wall? The AI goes for it like crazy in BTS.

 

[Arlborn]

Anything in which the Human can use for such an advantage, while the AI just won't do the same, is an exploit and/or a problem from the AI.

That said, in my opinion, CR used like that is an exploit.

 

[ViewFinder]

In my first BTS game, I had Cristo Redentor and was in a long battle with an AI nation and its several vassals. They were losing production because each of their cities had 10 to 20 unhappiness from war weariness until they researched fascism and switched to police state. So what did I do? I used to Cristo to switch to despotism and then used a spy to switch their civic, and then I could switch back to police state. I did it several times, and it crippled their military production and let me finally get the upper hand.

 

[mjs0]

Rather than nerfing CR across the board I would target the exploit and ensure that you can only trigger a civic change through espionage to a civic that you have been running for some minimum number of turns (10 perhaps).

 

[Arlborn]

Rather than nerfing CR across the board I would target the exploit and ensure that you can only trigger a civic change through espionage to a civic that you have been running for some minimum number of turns (10 perhaps).

I would also make you need 1 turn to change again your civics. Unless, of course, the AI learns to do it in their own interests. THAT would be fun!

 

[Lurking Liu]

I've been using Cristo Redentor legitimately the past few games, and even then it's a bit overpowered. It effectively gives your ruler a third trait, and even though it's late in the game it's still very strong.

It'd be perfectly fine if they kept the 5-turn delay between civic changes. As it stands, being able to swap between Slavery and Emancipation or from Free Speech and Nationhood every turn is just too strong. Doing it every five turns is acceptable to me.

 

[UncleJJ]

In my first BTS game, I had Cristo Redentor and was in a long battle with an AI nation and its several vassals. They were losing production because each of their cities had 10 to 20 unhappiness from war weariness until they researched fascism and switched to police state. So what did I do? I used to Cristo to switch to despotism and then used a spy to switch their civic, and then I could switch back to police state. I did it several times, and it crippled their military production and let me finally get the upper hand.

Yes, but it is the spy civic changing mission that is broken not CR. Fix what is broken not something that only amplifies the problem. The spy mission should be a lot harder to do, and/or a lot easier to stop, or be less effective. Perhaps the cost of the spy mission should scale in terms of the population size of the civ you're changing. A big civ with a lot of big cities is obviously harder to to change than a small one.

One fix for the spy mission could be that you are locked into a civic for 5 turns yourself if you force another civ to adopt it. That would mean Spiritual leaders and players with the CR would be affected like other civs.

 

[Alkyon]

Just messed around with this wonder last game, and I must say a delay in Civic changes is desperately needed with this wonder, even if it is just one turn. I was forced by constant wars to be a police state, and yet I often would switch my civic just to hurry production. I also used the CR+Spy combo against the second-place civilization to change his legal system to beurocracy (I was first) when he started to tear up my colonies in an attempt to slow him down.

 

[Arlborn]

Yes, but it is the spy civic changing mission that is broken not CR. Fix what is broken not something that only amplifies the problem. The spy mission should be a lot harder to do, and/or a lot easier to stop, or be less effective. Perhaps the cost of the spy mission should scale in terms of the population size of the civ you're changing. A big civ with a lot of big cities is obviously harder to to change than a small one.

One fix for the spy mission could be that you are locked into a civic for 5 turns yourself if you force another civ to adopt it. That would mean Spiritual leaders and players with the CR would be affected like other civs.

For me, and for many here as I can see, CR IS broken. Don't really matter when it comes on the game, being able to go for slavery, whip whip whip, go to police state, draft draft and draft, and then go to emancipation and buy buy buy in the same turn is surely overpowered.

 

[Spearthrower]

And what if you didn't get the Great Wall? The AI goes for it like crazy in BTS.

I have never seen the AI go for the GW yet - started at least 20 games.

It got to the point where I had to modify the GW to require 10 walls, so I couldnt count on getting it every game.


Even without it, the human is much more able to get more espionage with less commerce by actively building all the +spy points even when the building is unnecessary (such as a courthouse in your capital).