Critique my early game

[DrCron]

Catching up faster with many trade routes ? How exactly do you get "many" trade routes in the same amount of time you need to build one campus ? Cause afaik, you need "many" cities to get "many" trade routes.

I think you misunderstood what I meant by "catching up". I did not mean just catching up in number of beakers immediately. I meant the whole game. If you need food and production for new cities, you use internal trade routes, that's fine, you'll grow faster which will help you catching up. Or you can use international trade routes, get more gold and purchase a few monuments and granaries. That will also help you grow faster, as well as getting your first decent government faster, which in turn helps with catching up to the AI. And by the time you want to build a campus (or any other early district) you can also boost the construction speed with an internal trade route. Trade routes are everything, at any point in the game. And of course ANY district will take a while to be built since they are expensive and you want expansion first.

you need science no matter what you decide to do

Wrong. You need some science for domination victories, very little science for cultural ones, and even less for religious ones.

I have yet to lose one game on deity

Same here. Well, that's wrong, I once moved my early units all over the place only to realize on turn 15 that America was very close. They dow'd me the next turn and I lost by roughly turn 20. So let's say I'm yet to lose a deity game in which I don't move my initial units in a very dumb way.

But that's just my view on "first district to build" anyway as otherwise i will more than agree with you that the backbone of any good game is commercial hubs everywhere. I just tend to build up science first to help reach key production techs, namely appreticeship for the boost to mines

Why wouldn't the "backbone" of any good game start at the beginning? The eureka for apprenticeship is very easy to get, it shouldn't be so expensive to research.

Capital will usually go campus, commercial, theater, industrial.

Having a pattern disregarding the type of victory you are going for is just wrong. First district if going for a religious victory should be a holy site (but you should never build one if you are going for something else). And if you are not going for a cultural victory you can win Deity around turn 250 (standard speed) building a total of ZERO theatre squares (that's what "meritocracy" is for).

Other cities will almost alway go commercial hubs, campus\theater depending on where i'm going.

After you have 2 campuses, there's no reason for them to be your 2nd district anywhere if you are not going for a scientific victory.

As for the scenarios including conquest, i just discard them as it's just EZ mode atm

Any deity game of CIV 6 includes conquest. Unless you intentionally go for a "pacifist" game, which can be fun but also slower.

 

[Victoria]

There are so many ways of winning.

lately I have been playing a lot of science cultural... its just great fun and different.
Commercial and campus are the primaries everywhere... if I have high production I will go campus first, if I have low production I will go commercial first or i'll just go by mood and by far the most important.... location location location.

I beeline science like a maniac but take meritocracy an alliances ASAP rather than feudalism as that track also has the campus adjacency. bang bang bang, projects, hell even specialists is the city dictates it.
Its a great run because Eiffel takes me through all the combat troops so I do not struggle as early defensively after my initial expansion fades. Eiffel also is the target of ... battleships... not the greatest movie but a pretty cool unit tht also ups my city shooting power considerably. That's why I like great admirals... build a single early battleship then lets see those knights dance near my doorstep. Its another good thing about Brazil also, early battleship = bloodbath blasting walls

Great scientists typically do one thing grow your science and a few adjacency ones really catch you up. I do not even need good production... i tend to ditch IZ in most cities and I do not need the growth, few amenity issues its just a cruise and with great troops with no requirement to kill, just to raid and explore and mess with their heads

very little science for cultural ones

After you have 2 campuses, there's no reason for them to be your 2nd district anywhere if you are not going for a scientific victory.

Wrong (you said wrong so I can

 

[Calyxx]

It does seem like production is the main bottleneck in the early game - with high science, you can cover a lot of ground research wise and gain access to important districts/improvements/units - but if you are still working on getting basic infrastructure and settlers out, then you can't really take advantage of this higher technology level... can you?

 

[Victoria]

It does seem like production is the main bottleneck in the early game - with high science, you can cover a lot of ground research wise and gain access to important districts/improvements/units - but if you are still working on getting basic infrastructure and settlers out, then you can't really take advantage of this higher technology level... can you?

Cities are the main bottleneck, then production.
You typically place a district as soon as it is possible to do so and then build it when it is possible to do so. Lots of other things also get in the way. Coping, making choices... there is no one route

 

[theras]

Cities are the main bottleneck, then production.
You typically place a district as soon as it is possible to do so and then build it when it is possible to do so. Lots of other things also get in the way. Coping, making choices... there is no one route

Can you explain this? Why place the district as soon as possible rather than waiting until you are ready to build?

 

[EpicWestern]

This seemed like a really great start - room to expand, decent terrain for 6-8 cities, I can focus on science and wage profitable non-conquest focused war once I get my Mamluks (or conquer Germany while liberating some city states). But... that doesn't seem to be what is occurring. The campus was an early build in my capital, but I am severely behind the AI in tech - It is turn 89, and I have just entered the Medieval era; my neighbor to the north, Germany, has simultaneously entered the Renaissance. Due to the poor food and several built settlers, my capital has a population of only 3 or 4. I had to go exploring when I received the last prophet thanks to not fitting in a holy site build, and only recently have founded my religion. Germany attacked earlier and I easily demolished their army assaulting my city, but the jungle terrain and timely construction of walls prevented me taking cities from them, and I settled for a lucrative peace deal. Now they are significantly ahead in tech, and I don't foresee war with Germany being feasible during my Mamluke window.

Now, I have no doubt that I will eventually win this game. But what am I doing wrong? This is typical of my games. Surely there is something I could focus on to improve my early game and not feel so helpless? In this game, I built a campus early to attempt to counter this - but it does not seem to have helped. Cities I found are nearly useless until they have built a worker and have some improved tiles; meanwhile, the production of settlers has sapped my capital - though I can't build them quickly anywhere else.

You indeed have a very good start. There's plenty of space to expand, plenty of hills in your capital, and perhaps most importantly you have two science based city states nearby. Unless you have your mind set on domination, your situation (including your civ) sets you up very well for a science victory. You have room to expand around 4-5 more times, but don't do it from your capital, you need that population growth. You actually need feudalism fairly fast, and by purchasing tiles and chopping some wood you can set up a food diamond to the left of your capital. So grow your capital as much as you can, get apprenticeship and industrialization fairly early, and you can really start spamming campuses and campus buildings everywhere. You really don't need commerical hubs till later (espeically with a decent gold income). Your priority for the next 30 turns or so should be almost exculsively builders and settlers. You're actually a bit light on the builders.

If your mind is set on a domination win you're build shouldn't really be *that* much different. It seems like you lost the window for a mass archer rush, but 4-5 crossbowmen might actually get the job done. You already have the archers and it seems plenty of gold for upgrades. So I would try that before attempting Mamlukes. If that doesn't work try again with bombards. Meanwhile, you still need to tech up pretty strongly since you need to cross oceans anyway, so get steel and cartography as fast as possible, and send artillery out.

Military-wise you're a bit too spread out. You have a few units randomly garrisoned when they could be scouting, taking care of barbarians, or ready for a random attack from Germany.

Can you explain this? Why place the district as soon as possible rather than waiting until you are ready to build?

Production costs increase as tech increases, but when you place a district right away the cost gets locked in. So you place the district, lock in the cost, and then come back to it after your important stuff (like monuments, builders) are finished.

I actually don't do this though as self-imposed rule since its close to bug exploitation. But given that production costs seem to increase a bit too much for my tastes I really can't blame anyone who does.

 

[Eliminator_Sr]

Having a pattern disregarding the type of victory you are going for is just wrong. First district if going for a religious victory should be a holy site (but you should never build one if you are going for something else). And if you are not going for a cultural victory you can win Deity around turn 250 (standard speed) building a total of ZERO theatre squares (that's what "meritocracy" is for).

While I agree with many of your points, I disagree with this. There are reasons to build early holy sites if you are not going religious victory. Arabia is case in point and they are also very strong with some other civs like Poland. You can easily beeline for theocracy and faith rush a bunch of Mamluks or Hussar and it's game over.

 

[Calyxx]

Production costs increase as tech increases, but when you place a district right away the cost gets locked in. So you place the district, lock in the cost, and then come back to it after your important stuff (like monuments, builders) are finished.

I actually don't do this though as self-imposed rule since its close to bug exploitation. But given that production costs seem to increase a bit too much for my tastes I really can't blame anyone who does.

Is this still true? My impression was that is was changed in the most recent patch, but I haven't been able to play enough recently to be confident in that statement.

 

[cazaderonus]

I think you misunderstood what I meant by "catching up". I did not mean just catching up in number of beakers immediately. I meant the whole game. If you need food and production for new cities, you use internal trade routes, that's fine, you'll grow faster which will help you catching up. Or you can use international trade routes, get more gold and purchase a few monuments and granaries. That will also help you grow faster, as well as getting your first decent government faster, which in turn helps with catching up to the AI. And by the time you want to build a campus (or any other early district) you can also boost the construction speed with an internal trade route. Trade routes are everything, at any point in the game. And of course ANY district will take a while to be built since they are expensive and you want expansion first.

How do you get faster government with trade routes consistently ? That implies getting culture out of it which is not always the case. And again, you'll still need to get enough trade routes to make it significant enough. And we're back to what i said previously being that a lot of turns will go by before you have even just 5 trades routes.

Wrong. You need some science for domination victories, very little science for cultural ones, and even less for religious ones.

What do you mean there. What's "some" science, and "very little" ?

Why wouldn't the "backbone" of any good game start at the beginning? The eureka for apprenticeship is very easy to get, it shouldn't be so expensive to research.

It's not like apprenticeship is a tech you can get to without researching a few techs before. As for the backbone, it's what makes the empire solid, it doesnt necessarily mean that you need to start there.

Having a pattern disregarding the type of victory you are going for is just wrong. First district if going for a religious victory should be a holy site (but you should never build one if you are going for something else). And if you are not going for a cultural victory you can win Deity around turn 250 (standard speed) building a total of ZERO theatre squares (that's what "meritocracy" is for).

I disagree. I'll change my usual pattern to adapt to the terrain and the situation, but otherwise i never start with a VC in mind as the better choice will probably lie in the terrain i can settle. And to keep the versatility of being able to adapt, that's why i tend to build a campus and a theater early no matter what. It can never end up being a bad call. That will allow rushing an early tech or civic efficiently and allow a steady progression in both in the early part of the game, which is undoubtedly the only part where you're at any risk of losing.

As for religious victories, i'm basically ignoring it bc it's just not interesting. So religious districts are not even part of the game for me atm.

After you have 2 campuses, there's no reason for them to be your 2nd district anywhere if you are not going for a scientific victory.

Missed my point here. What i meant was that i will always go campus basically in my capital (unless with an insane civ like Macedona where an encampment is just too good with those UU). Then all my new cities will start with a commercial hub. Then either a campus or a theater as 2nd depending on the victory i feel is best suited. (Providing i'm not going for Domination, but that victory condition is just too damn easy to get, beside money and a brain you need nothing, so districts choice is irrelevant). Of course this is just a guideline.

Any deity game of CIV 6 includes conquest. Unless you intentionally go for a "pacifist" game, which can be fun but also slower.

Yeah well, deity is just too easy if you decide to go full conquest. So i'm trying to play pacifist as much as possible. I avoid the early surprise war because it's just too cheesy vs the AI and then i'll go to war only if i can control the amount of warmonger penalty i'll get. Be it through CBs, or by starting wars that are just about bullying for a solid peace deal and not pure conquest. I think i'm trying to play the diplomacy game actually, this feels more accurate than pacifist.

An exception to this is my current persia game. Got triple DOWed at turn 21, so i decided to just annihilate their asses.

 

[DrCron]

lately I have been playing a lot of science cultural... its just great fun and different.
Commercial and campus are the primaries everywhere

I have absolutely no doubt that prioritizing theatre squares will get you a cultural victory faster. Not saying this is not fun though, I'm just generally speaking here about the most efficient strategies.

You can easily beeline for theocracy and faith rush

This is absolutely true. I completely forgot about the theocracy domination game, which is actually very efficient. That being said, you sill won't need to build too many holy sites because you'll get most of them from early conquest (which comes before you get theocracy). Unless your closest neighbor is Kongo, the AI will always build a lot of holy sites very soon.

How do you get faster government with trade routes consistently ?

Easy. More trade routes = more gold = faster monument purchase. I tend to use my early gold to purchase monuments in my first cities.

What do you mean there. What's "some" science, and "very little" ?

I guess for a domination victory it would be maybe a total of 4 campuses (counting the ones you conquer from the AI) while a cultural victory can be achieved with only 2 (maybe you build a 3rd later on, when you have plenty of production and just want to win asap).

i never start with a VC in mind

As for religious victories, i'm basically ignoring it

These 2 make sense together, since at the time you can only win a religious victory if you go for it on turn 1 (on deity). I pretty much always start with a VC in mind, so I guess that explains the different early games.

So i'm trying to play pacifist as much as possible

And I guess this is another reason why you want a campus so early. I normally answer to the early deity DOW (usually before turn 20) by conquering several cities from the early aggressor. Usually one of them will have a campus. Still, on my pacifist deity win (no warmonger penalties all game long, that was the goal) I'm pretty sure I built a commercial hub before the first campus. Even if you just use it for an internal trade route that gets you the campus faster, it still seems like a time saver.

 

[cazaderonus]

4 campuses for a domination and 2 for a cultural win feels very low to me imo. I dont have any hard number on how many science a campus yields end game but it's not that big. say +4 for a great campus spot, +2 for library, +4 for univ, +5 for the lab. That's +15 Science per turn. Say 30 with a policy.

Say, maybe 1.5 science per turn from Trade routes overall.

So on a culture game where you dont end up with a massive empire. That would net you 60 Science per turn from 2 campus, say 25/30 science from 10/15 trades routes, and what, maybe 40 science from citizens ? 130 Science per turn end game ? well i guess that could work but then i see even more reason to build one asap.

For domination, still irrelevant. Game is just too easy that way.

 

[Victoria]

So on a culture game where you dont end up with a massive empire. That would net you 60 Science per turn from 2 campus, say 25/30 science from 10/15 trades routes, and what, maybe 40 science from citizens ? 130 Science per turn end game ? well i guess that could work but then i see even more reason to build one asap

You are right with regard to building ASAP
However... if going for a traditional CV its a bit more complex than that.
Cultural buildings are the massive culture maker and need to go down early to get that tourism in place. At soon as you hit your archaeologists you can ease off and push science more. So at that stage of the game you can even push science a lot with cards and projects

You can take an alternative approach and push science harder from the beginning but risk great writer loss and the major problem with that is the opposition get them so you have a steeper hill to climb. The Ai is rubbish at handling museums but filling an amphitheater full of writers they know how to do. Its a half way house that allows computers earlier at the cost of higher tourism requirements. These can be met with seaside resorts which are surprisingly good.

Pushing for a science cultural victory is better if you are going that way. Discard most of your theater building and just push Campuses. As England I am quite happy to throw away my museums for this route. My high science with great scientists just pushes me to resorts very early, too early you may say so a better route is to eiffel first as that is a must have for this strat. Eiffel allows great fast troop improvement on the way so you are not so much a victim as a cactus. With eiffel and resorts you are near computers and you should still be under turn 200 with great possibilities. If you can get cristo and tree building as well sometime then great and you should be able to with a couple of museums.

Taking a traditional approach you end up at the end of the culture tree quite early and struggling with science and a weak military civ as well. It can lead to early victory though done in a very concentrated form. the trouble is on higher levels that concentration is hard.

Taking the halfway house allows for compromise and control to some degree but you are mediocre all around
The science root just seems more fun and taking those great scientist (especially the ones that give up to 2k science in a turn) does stop the AI running away with early AT troops to some degree.

Lately I have had more success at deity with the science cultural than with a traditional or hybrid approach. If you want to pwn this way and really do it in style and early navy is just OP... and all you want is the beaches anyway. Free a few cities along the way and everyone loves you so you do not even have to bother with open borders.

 

[DrCron]

130 Science per turn end game ?

Yes, I think that's pretty much what I get late game if I'm going for a cultural victory, between 100-150 beakers per turn. If you b-line computers and plan your eurekas it should be more than enough.

 

[cazaderonus]

You are right with regard to building ASAP
However... if going for a traditional CV its a bit more complex than that.
Cultural buildings are the massive culture maker and need to go down early to get that tourism in place. At soon as you hit your archaeologists you can ease off and push science more. So at that stage of the game you can even push science a lot with cards and projects

You can take an alternative approach and push science harder from the beginning but risk great writer loss and the major problem with that is the opposition get them so you have a steeper hill to climb. The Ai is rubbish at handling museums but filling an amphitheater full of writers they know how to do. Its a half way house that allows computers earlier at the cost of higher tourism requirements. These can be met with seaside resorts which are surprisingly good.

Pushing for a science cultural victory is better if you are going that way. Discard most of your theater building and just push Campuses. As England I am quite happy to throw away my museums for this route. My high science with great scientists just pushes me to resorts very early, too early you may say so a better route is to eiffel first as that is a must have for this strat. Eiffel allows great fast troop improvement on the way so you are not so much a victim as a cactus. With eiffel and resorts you are near computers and you should still be under turn 200 with great possibilities. If you can get cristo and tree building as well sometime then great and you should be able to with a couple of museums.

Taking a traditional approach you end up at the end of the culture tree quite early and struggling with science and a weak military civ as well. It can lead to early victory though done in a very concentrated form. the trouble is on higher levels that concentration is hard.

Taking the halfway house allows for compromise and control to some degree but you are mediocre all around
The science root just seems more fun and taking those great scientist (especially the ones that give up to 2k science in a turn) does stop the AI running away with early AT troops to some degree.

Lately I have had more success at deity with the science cultural than with a traditional or hybrid approach. If you want to pwn this way and really do it in style and early navy is just OP... and all you want is the beaches anyway. Free a few cities along the way and everyone loves you so you do not even have to bother with open borders.

I agree. All the cultural wins i had on Deity, i always ended with half of my amphitheater empty. Artefacts and resorts always got me the game. And that's despite going heavy theater very early (even before commercial hubs as i wanted to try something different). You can rush GW but if the AIs decide to go hard down that path as well, it's hard to compete. Same is true when encountering a few technophile civs for GS.

Thing is, GW are amazing to kickstart tourism but the lack of thematic bonuses makes them irrelevant compared to the gigantic tourism rush you can achieve with an Artefact / Eiffel Tower/ resort / Cristo Redemptor move.