Critique this start: Prince Lv

[demetrious]

Prince / Continents / Normal Map / Random terrain / Random Civ: Julius Ceasar

My 6 yr old looked at JC and said "He's good early, just go straight for Bronze, then Iron, then use the 'patientiant' to crush them. Easy. They're strong with a power of 8." After laughing for a few minutes, I started with my attempt.

This is my 4th prince game and I thought I would post some early pieces of my development and see what people thought and try to use the knowledge here to get a bit better.

The link above is an early "plan". I think that is the first worker that is about to pop out. tKind of hard to see (first images ever so learning) but under the bananas is the planned 3rd city location. Monte spotted first from SW and Egypt / Cyrus from NW.

The build for Rome was worker/worker/settler with one chop for worker and 2 for the settler.


Here is the plan "executed".

Of note, Iron showed up the prior turn, probably right as I built the third city. But it certainly looks like I could have changed placement if I had wanted to. Stone is hooked up and Stonehenge was started early with the thought of building Stonehenge and the Pyramids in Rome so Stonehenge was started a bit early. A worker will move up and chop one forest to speed up the 3rd City in finishing the work boat.

Thoughts on this plan? Or execution thereof. Just trying to learn. I have some more pics as we move forward I'll post later.

 

[Firebot]

You first priority is locking up that iron with a 4th city. Chop rush a settler and get working on the southern tile, building one tile to the south or even building right on top of it to speed up the process - you will overlap but that's of a minor concern. I would have suggested taking on Egypt for their iron but you are not ready military wise. Right now I only see you using warriors, and if you already have iron working you will be meeting up with tough barbarians (the bright side is that the way you are positioned you will only be attacked from the south and possibly north east). I would also get started on a 3rd worker - city infrastructure is more important at the start then wonders - get that pig and corn connected asap, your main city is in a real good spot. Once that settler and worker is done, build one or two praetorian for defense then you can get started on the Pyramids if you really want as you have stone.

I would at one point work on giving more breathing room to the north and take a city or two from Egypt. With Praetorians, you can take her out very easily - build 5 or 6 then attack. Losing out on the Pyramids to eliminate a close civ is a tradeoff I would do any day especially since taking Egypt's cities won't bankrupt you as they are close and you would get a nice capital city - it's up to you if you want to go through or not.

 

[demetrious]

1st Priority - Iron. I agree with that. Probably lucky to escape without it being taken at this point.

My thought pattern was to work soley toward Praetorians and therefore ignore Archers. I don't have copper so axemen are out. I built a few warriors and trying to hold on. So I was not in any position to take on Egypt for the Iron sitting right there and honestly, that didn't cross my mind. Maybe I need to bump up the aggressiveness a bit more.

I did think I was a bit behind in number of workers as well and I built a few more.

Attatched is where I was at 550 BC. (image 16)

I sent a scout out to see about Monte thinking he must be close because I found him first. Image 17 shows a pretty good view of just how far away he is.

You can also see barbarians started a town to the NE and 2 Praetorians are headed that way to take it out once it hits a size of 2.

The capital and the city on the coast seem to be in very good spots for me. The one inbetween (founded 2nd) is fair. The iron town down in the forest tundra has been left alone in large part. I worry about chopping the forest and I am considering just waiting for lumbermills. Basically an outpost town not that I know Monte is sooo far away.

To the SE of the capital is Silver, Horses, and Deer and 2 warriors head in that direction.

Assuming I can grab both locations that will turn out with 6 cities pretty nicely centered up around the capital.

 

[TCGTRF]

Hmmm.

A couple things--your cities are awfully close together for as much room as you've got. There are four overlapping tiles between your first three cities. This is going to inhibit your growth/production quite a bit when you get fully developed.

Which leads to the second point. Why did you build your second city one tile inland, precluding your use of the lighthouse and harbor improvements as well as causing the above overlap? I would have built it on the hill one tile SW to place it in a more defensible position, eliminate some of the overlap with the other two citiesl and open up the sea tiles for full usage. Lots of potential there.

Tom

 

[demetrious]

Hmmm.

A couple things--your cities are awfully close together for as much room as you've got. There are four overlapping tiles between your first three cities. This is going to inhibit your growth/production quite a bit when you get fully developed.

Which leads to the second point. Why did you build your second city one tile inland, precluding your use of the lighthouse and harbor improvements as well as causing the above overlap? I would have built it on the hill one tile SW to place it in a more defensible position, eliminate some of the overlap with the other two citiesl and open up the sea tiles for full usage. Lots of potential there.

Tom

Hmmmm.... I think that is why I was posting. I've only started probably 8 or so games so I don't have a ton of practice. I've only loaded new and played to finish.

But I see your point. A few weeks ago I felt like I did better with a smaller empire than one more spread out. Easier to defend which I tend to be weak at - I guess I was here again with warriors - and quicker to get to to improve. With the second city I would rather miss close than far but I think in retrospect, your position is better. It would have improved spacing and given more growth. I think I worried about the lack of production if I covered the hill and gaining the desert and tundra to the south. Finally I thought it would allow me faster access to site 3 which I thought looked very good at the start - so maybe I priortized it too much.

 

[TCGTRF]

Hmmmm.... I think that is why I was posting. I've only started probably 8 or so games so I don't have a ton of practice. I've only loaded new and played to finish.

But I see your point. A few weeks ago I felt like I did better with a smaller empire than one more spread out. Easier to defend which I tend to be weak at - I guess I was here again with warriors - and quicker to get to to improve. With the second city I would rather miss close than far but I think in retrospect, your position is better. It would have improved spacing and given more growth. I think I worried about the lack of production if I covered the hill and gaining the desert and tundra to the south. Finally I thought it would allow me faster access to site 3 which I thought looked very good at the start - so maybe I priortized it too much.

Well, that city is not going to be a major production city whether you build on the hill or not. It is just screaming for being a money city with all of those cottage-able tiles and the commerce from being on the coast. Remember, you *start* with Fishing. This means that those ocean tiles have some value right from the start.

In addition, if you *had* built on that hill, you're one obelisk or Stonehenge away from putting the iron inside your first cultural border expansion *without* building a fourth city in a sub-optimal place just to claim it.

I also see trees still by Rome. Had you chopped two more workers with them your second and third cities would have been one size larger at least in your second picture (two more workers to build roads to city sites, plus the possibility of taking agriculture a bit earlier, since with a few extra chops you've got Stonehenge and don't need Masonry as early.)

Along with the Praetorians, you've got great advantages with JC. You will not run into health problems until two sizes larger than a normal Civ, and you are charged half cost for your empire. This means that if you can solve the population unrest problem with something like Monarchy or a state religion, you can make a widespread empire with large cities in it.

With JC on a normal sized map on Prince, I'd be trying to get 6 cities out (or capture barb or neighboring Civ's to give that total) as quickly as I could while still maintaining a reasonably-sized army. Once my economy has recovered back to 70% Science, I'd be looking to expand even more.

Tom

 

[demetrious]

Interesting. Just a note: when the second city went down, I couldn't see Iron yet but certainly in hindsight that is another clear advantage - but it is hindsight.

I was saving the trees for the Pyramids and trying not to simply clear cut.

Here are pictures of basically 0 AD. I have 6 cities founded and I think research is at 80%. I have 2 or 3 catapults and say 6 or so Praetorian. Sounds like it is time to build more military and make some room on the northern front before good defenses are developed.

At this point, I am on top of the scoring and 1st in many cats, 2nd in military to Japan.

Thanks for the feedback.

 

[TCGTRF]

Interesting. Just a note: when the second city went down, I couldn't see Iron yet but certainly in hindsight that is another clear advantage - but it is hindsight.

I was saving the trees for the Pyramids and trying not to simply clear cut.

Here are pictures of basically 0 AD. I have 6 cities founded and I think research is at 80%. I have 2 or 3 catapults and say 6 or so Praetorian. Sounds like it is time to build more military and make some room on the northern front before good defenses are developed.

At this point, I am on top of the scoring and 1st in many cats, 2nd in military to Japan.

Thanks for the feedback.

Hmm. Again with Pisae one tile away from the ocean. Are you afraid of the longshoremen going on strike? That city as it is is not really going to be of much use ever.

You are in a very, very good position as far as your scoring goes (on *your* continent), so I guess I shouldn't give you too much trouble . Happy's not a pushover. If you go after her, watch out for pillaging horse units if she has horses. Can you check her resources yet? How many other Civs are there? I haven't played on a Normal sized map in a month or so.

If you're not going to be warmongering soon and your science is sitting at 80%, I would be seriously thinking of dropping a "speedbump" fishing village onto the north side of the arm stretching towards Monty. If you don't, he's going to expand clear to your Western border pretty soon. You don't want him close enough that he can overrun your important cities with knights soon after a surprise attack. I would also consider placing a city five tiles east of your capital, right on the coast. It'll end up being depending somewhat on the sea, since there'll be a two useful tile overlap with the city north of it. Remember, build on the coast!

Keep in mind that if your Science percentage is that high at this stage of the game, you have a window of opportunity as far as expansion goes, with both peaceful and warlike possible. Note that your first place value for your score applies ONLY versus those three civilizations on your continent! If Mansa Musa is out there somewhere on another continent, he's probably kicking your butt as we speak. [In other words, the laurels are for your brow, not for sitting on!--Get out there and get bigger!]

Tom

 

[Mastiff_of_Ar]

If Mansa Musa is out there somewhere on another continent, he's probably kicking your butt as we speak.

Why does he always seem to kick butt, anyway? I was doing great in a Prince game, and all of a sudden, he's whipping me like an incontinent dog...

 

[TCGTRF]

Why does he always seem to kick butt, anyway? I was doing great in a Prince game, and all of a sudden, he's whipping me like an incontinent dog...

I think he's got the best designed AI in the game. He's a Tech Ho, designed to research as many techs as fast as possible without getting too many people mad at him. Formidable opponent.

Tom

 

[Mastiff_of_Ar]

I think he's got the best designed AI in the game. He's a Tech Ho, designed to research as many techs as fast as possible without getting too many people mad at him. Formidable opponent.

Tom

So what strategy would work best if you played with him as your Civ?

 

[cabert]

as for critics:
- I would have gone coastal for antium, one square away from the sea is dumb (sorry to say so, but you lose good trade routes, and possibly good ressources)

- As was said before, Iron was a must, too bad you lost turns on getting it.
- don't be too comfortable about montee being away: I can samurais coming soon enough : maybe you could go to war together with Japan against Egypt?

for the rest : go for the barbs, but i would raze the ill-placed city

cabert

 

[Hans Lemurson]

I concur, Antium should have been coastal, and built on the hill. Building it on the desert would hve gotten you quick iron. but would have required forknowledge and would have ultimately landed you with a worse city.

I plan toward the future a lot with my city placement, and I wouldn't have built that iron-grabbing city. The iron will come to you eventually, and there was a far better city location north-east of Rome. The good spot was on the hill inside the bend in the river, diagonal to where the barb-city popped up. It would get you food, production, commerce from the river, trade-connection with Hatty, and most importantly, a copper deposit to its SSE. With your 4th city built there instead, it would have been actually contributing to your power rather than being a permanent drain on your treasury for a resource inevitably yours.

With the hill-city in place, you could build up a basic bronze-army to keep Hatty off your back, and concentrate on economic development. Praetorians aren't obsolete for a long time, and so whenever you get your iron via culture will be good enough, and your economic development will allow you to build up a very large praetorian force relatively quickly when the time comes. The hill-city will in fact be one of your best production cities for a long time (second to rome of course), and will do more for your long-term power than getting access to iron 30-40 turns earlier than normal.

As for the city that was going after the frozen assets of the south, it too should have been coastal. The land, except for a few select spots, is crap, and will never get better. With acces to the sea however, the city could pay for itself with trade-routes and the commerce generated by working the coast. With a lighthouse, the city can actually gorw quite large just living off the sea. Coastal access is the one redeeming charictaristic for "wastelend" cities. Getting those resources helps to subsidize the effort of course, but coastal access is your friend. The horses presented a challenge to settling on the coast, but I think you could have either chosen a "low" or "high" location for your build. Higher would have missed the silver (I think, can't make it out for sure) but would have had access to a few fertile land tiles. Some overlap with rome, but nothing too serious. Also, the high-location would put you in better proximity to the river, which will benefit you since river-tundra can be farmed for break-even food, and in the late game can actually give a surplus. The lower build site would have actually been rather low indeed, built on the snow-hill so that it could have resource-access to the whales, providing it with a little extra surplus food for its growth. I personally would have gone for the upper-location, since i severely dislike cities that are in and of themselves "worthless". If a city can't pull its own weight, its probably not worth building. Cultural expansion will eventually get nearby resources into your control. A temple, a library and a little patience can get you to 500 culture by the time access to the resource matters. If truly needed, you could always build a pure resource-control city down in the south. When the land is bad, you don't have to worry about resources being within your workable radius so much, since you haven't the food to use it anyways.

Good city location-planning is a big asset, since cities are your assets.

 

[demetrious]

Good city location-planning is a big asset, since cities are your assets.

I think this is the take home message and probably why I seem to be weaker in mid / late game. It is amazing how many things you need to think about with the game. I actually made a mental note last week not to build cities one tile off the coast, but I guess I didn't follow through. With the farthest SE city, there are two deer camps, one just north and to the SW that I probably incorrectly prioritized. It will grow to 5 or 6 pretty easy but then will cap out due to food (I think).

I appreciate the comments although humbling. Funny thing is that despite all the good info showing how I could do better, this is probably the best I've ever done

Update as an FYI:

I got more aggressive last PM and decided to go after Hatty. I was a bit nervous as the other 3 countries were cautious towards me and she was pleased due my taking on her religion - that and the fact she was in second place. But I agreed with the idea of needing room to the north in better land. But without the advice here, I don't know that I would have done this.

So I attacked Memphis. One turn to get there and next to take the city (2 archers). Good news turned better because in the one turn moving next to Memphis, Japan declared war on Egypt making the end result a given. From Memphis, we moved towards Thebes and it fell in short order.

I looked at bit farther N and E but ceased the war for Metal Casting and cash and focused back on tech.

Right now I have a 4-5 tech lead on Japan - 2 turns away from Guilds and he doesn't have machinery. So the plan is rush to knights and go hit him taking at least one or two cities to ensure he doesn't come get me with Samurai. Egypt is now past history and Japan is my closest known competitor at around 850 vs. 1050 points.

 

[cabert]

Well done!
I see you follwed my advice to go for hatty with japan, although it wasn't totally planned (but you must know toku is always ready for a surprise attack, firaxis hasn't forgotten Pearl Harbor obvioulsly).

If it happened the way I had in mind you should have good relations with japan (+3?4? for a war fought together). Maybe enough to open borders and send him missionaries? could bring you lots of cash

 

[Boppo]

One thing I would suggest for your future games. If you are going to play the Romans, Get Iron working, find your Iron, build Prats and attack. They are so dominant in their time that you really need to take advantage of them as much as possible. Give them some city raider promotions and they really are close to unstoppable. They rule until Macemen come along.

After Iron working I would head to Alphabet to allow tech trading. Theology is high on the list to get too, as it gets you Theocracy and extra expeience for new troops.

The trick with all of this is to balance expansion with financial stability. Take come cities, then take some time to digest them. Once you are financially stable again expand some more. You can even try to get Techs from the AI for peace. Once you can afford to expand again, you can go right after the same Civ again.

Build a barracks in each city.

 

[TCGTRF]

So what strategy would work best if you played with him as your Civ?

Hmm. I'd try to do a Catherine Cottage Spam with him while founding and spreading at least one religion to all of my neighbors to insure peace.

Early Space Race victory, probably pre-1900.

Keep in mind, though, that so much depends on the initial placement and character of the opponents that there are a half-dozen different tracks that this could take in its accomplishment.

Oh, and demetrious, WATCH Monty. If he has a subcontinent to himself off to the West, sooner or later he's going to come calling. When he does, make sure that you've either got a reasonable force in your two Southern Cities to deal with his initial couple of stacks or a plan to shift units to the far south rapidly. I think you may have allowed him to get too close to your capital.

Tom

 

[Hans Lemurson]

Holy Potatoes! Thebes is awesome!!!

Lots of grassland, coastal access, fresh-water lake, 2 metal deposits (on grass), and a food resource!

There is one thing you must do with Thebes: COTTAGE SPAM. Keep the metal mines, use the mined hill as needed, but everywhere else: build cottages. Now.

The mines will provide the production you need to develop the city and build it's improvements. The lake gives you +2 health so you can grow easy, and will give surplus with a lighthouse. Coastal access will provide extra, lucrative trade routes, which can be further improved with harbors and the like. Then all of that grassland is just asking to be cottaged. ALL of it. Make this city your science capitol.

Memphis, since it is the Confucianist holy-city, can probably be geared toards money-making. Shrine income is affected by banks and the like, so monetary pursuits are worthwhile there even when your science rate is high.

Rome should be geared to be your production capitol. It has good food and decent hammer-producing abilities right now, but with improvement can increase this. When available, build watermills all along Rome's river. It will be small at first, the mills get better with time. Rome has an average number of hills, and plenty of farmland. This means you can (as you did) mine all of its hills. Since mills can only be built on one side of a river segment, that will leave about half of the river available for food development. Good production cities need to have a lot of food, since later a lot of engineer slots will be available to you. 6 of Rome's river tiles can be made into mills.