Critiques of Unique Powers

[Zetetic Apparat]

The thing about the Mongol empire is that while it gets very large, very quickly (~60-100 years) it collapses over a timespan that is probably only twice as long.

Most preferably Russia would start after the Mongols, as the rise of Muscovite Russia and that would hopefully lead to a collapse of the Mongol empire and a resurrection of China. The current setup results in the Mongols existing as a Civ much longer (usually) than they really should. Unfortunately, that could result in a German dominated Europe ; not a problem if Russia can expand east without keshik spam and it would also reduce the chance of France wiping out Germany (although in the games I've played, France has always had at least Rome so that might make them stronger than normal). If any Civ should have a UP that helps in maintaining a large number of cities and land mass it should be Russia [IMHO].

 

[Flamegrape]

I suggested no revolt period and no motherland unhappiness.

I think Vishaing had something there though. Having some sort of ability to draft mounted units (in particularly, Immortals) from newly conquered cities (whereas normally you draft defensive units in cities where you have - I think - the majority of culture). That would make conquest faster.

Personally though (and with regards to being historically correct), I think the Mongols should have some sort of 'rapid conqueror' UP (or 'massive empire' UP) long before the Persians do. It is an absolute joke that the Mongols have that UP while the Persians have their current UP - especially since historically speaking, the Mongols conquered a much bigger empire with less resources than the Persians. Good treatment of conquered people and the numberous numbers of Immortals (which I think is how they got their name) are what I know them (Cyrus) for. The Mongols were about conquest, tribute, submission, huge empire, a mobile nomadic army (settler camp style), ruthless (but effective) civil disorder solutions, etc.

If the Persians had an ability that allowed them to draft mounted units without an unhappiness penalty from newly conquered cities (normally you have to wait), that then could both symbolise his good treatment over his conquered lands (no unhappiness for drafting) while also reflecting the numberless Immortals (by allowing them to be drafted from a newly conquered city). Based on what I understand on the Persians, that would be both appropriate and would reflect them (Cyrus) well. It would also allow them to still conquer quickly.

I really like this idea. I think this idea should be seriously considered.

There has got to be a better idea than automatic flipping because of nearby conquered cities.

 

[Watiggi]

The thing about the Mongol empire is that while it gets very large, very quickly (~60-100 years) it collapses over a timespan that is probably only twice as long.

Most preferably Russia would start after the Mongols, as the rise of Muscovite Russia and that would hopefully lead to a collapse of the Mongol empire and a resurrection of China. The current setup results in the Mongols existing as a Civ much longer (usually) than they really should. Unfortunately, that could result in a German dominated Europe ; not a problem if Russia can expand east without keshik spam and it would also reduce the chance of France wiping out Germany (although in the games I've played, France has always had at least Rome so that might make them stronger than normal). If any Civ should have a UP that helps in maintaining a large number of cities and land mass it should be Russia [IMHO].

You make a fair point. I guess the problem I really have with the Mongols is that their UP doesn't reflect nor give them an ability to allow them to do what they did and do it well. Ultimately I would prefer the Mongols to be able to expand rather fast and maybe have an ability to allow them to 'manage' the cities in a way that prevents them from being able to be built (like a pop rush that 'fixes' city management issues like city maintanence, unhappiness, etc - there's some good discussion on it in the 'Mongolian Empire' thread). That would both allow the Mongols to grow to a large empire fast but also allow other empires to assimilate their undeveloped cities later on.

Also note though that the Mongols still exist. Although obviously not the size they were in their prime, but they still exist. The 'empire' never truely collapsed completely. The Mongolians have however been pushed around a lot with the old USSR and now with China, but the Mongolians still like to align themselves with Genghis.

 

[Flamegrape]

What if UP was an option that you could turn off before the beginning of the game?

 

[McA123]

But then the Civs lose a lot of their uniqueness. It would be like in Civ 2, the only differences are cosmetic ones, basically. Of course, there's still the UU and the starting location and everything.

 

[Watiggi]

Hmm. I just gave the Mongols a whirl with their new UP. It's a thousand times better than their old UP, but it doesn't capture the fear aspect of it as I thought it would. The game instead becomes a game of scouting for the biggest and/or best city to raze, setup all the units on each city and then attack and raze the selected city. It feels like chess rather than the 'surrender of be exterminated' attitude that would be appropriate. Although aggressive expansive in operation, it isn't what I thought it would be.

Were you unable to create - not a tally - but a system where it could create a chance of surrender based on the number of razings? Because that would (should!) capture it just right. It would allow them to rock up to a city and (effectively) demand surrender. The player would then be able to raze it full knowing that it will help with getting a future surrender regardless of distance. IMO - assuming it can be efficiently done - it would make it feel just right.

 

[SadoMacho]

I still have problems with Spain's UP. Spain's discovery of America was done by Italians. Christobal Colombo (New World) and Amerigo Vespuci (S-America) were Italian. The Spainish discoverers were conquerers, not explores.

I think Spain should have the Power of Conquest. For every city they conquer, they shlould get a free conquestador untill industrial age could be a UP to repesent this.

Also the Iron in Spain is allways in France hands. This prevent the building of conquestadors and the Aztecs and Inca's are saved form conquest. Perhaps bringing that Iron more to the south might be nice.

 

[NitroJay]

Sado, I agree with you about Spain needing some tweaking. I think something has to be done there. I have NEVER had a game where Spain wiped out, or even went to war with, the Aztecs and Incas. They found Havana in every game though... (Good job, Rhye.) There's got to be a way to make Spain more agressive towards the native people's of America, whether is be a new UP or something else entirely...

 

[Rhye]

Sado, I agree with you about Spain needing some tweaking. I think something has to be done there. I have NEVER had a game where Spain wiped out, or even went to war with, the Aztecs and Incas. They found Havana in every game though... (Good job, Rhye.) There's got to be a way to make Spain more agressive towards the native people's of America, whether is be a new UP or something else entirely...

something else interely then.
This fact has nothing to do with the UP. I tried with AI wars, I tried to turn Aztecs minor civ....no result. I'm hearing suggestions

 

[Hitti-Litti]

Increase Isabellas aggression on America and make a bigger cost to Aztecs for researching Feudalism, which makes conquering them a pain in the a**.

 

[Elhoim]

Perhaps lowering a lot their disposition towards Aztecs and Incans?

 

[UglyBoy]

Don't know whether it can be done but it's just hit me. How about a penalty for all technologically backwards civ. Something like:

-2 We laugh at how primitive you are.

It could even get worse as the technology gap increases or just be controlled by era, -1 per era behind for example.

 

[NitroJay]

Making Spain hate the Aztec and Incas sounds like a good idea. Although I think the "we laugh at how primitive you are" would make it REALLY hard on the Aztecs and Incas (and anyone else that falls behind in tech), but maybe that's the way it should be... The more technologically backward a civilization is, the worse it seems to be treated in the history books...

 

[dc82]

That might make it a problem for any nation to catch up though - if being behind in tech means negative points, it'll prevent any tech trading from occuring, exacerbating the tech gap.

Also, the Aztecs and the Incans initially let the Spanish come in, thinking it was in peace. The conquest came from more of a "sneak attack" by the Spanish forces.

 

[Rhye]

this is not the point.
Spain doesn't attack even if at war, through AIWars or setting them Minor.
It seems that AI isn't good enough in doing the invasion

 

[UglyBoy]

Then this is a much bigger problem than I was taking it for. I'll have a think and see if I can come up with anything.

 

[Rhye]

try playing as the aztecs, declaring war on spain and wait. Try to understand why Spain doesn't invade.

 

[UglyBoy]

I'll give that a go a little later.

I have one idea though. In driving Spain to colonise South America does this bias them towards founding cities and drive them away from capturing? I think this could be the cause that the AI is too preoccupied with founding cities to care about the Inca and Aztecs. If so then this is probably the same for all other civs who like to colonise.

 

[NitroJay]

I also plan on giving the Aztecs a try later, but as for the colonizing civs not capturing cities; when playing as America, England always declares war on me when I spawn, and they have no problems bringing units over from who-knows-where to fight in the revolution... They've captured a city or two from me in the past...

 

[SadoMacho]

I have seen that America often captures English cities, on the British Ilands. I have never seen a british invasion of India, but they colonize S-africa and Australia. So for England and spain, founding is important, but the USA conquer. Why is that?